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| Thread: ToH Arena Tournament - Reports and Rankings |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted June 14, 2009 08:17 PM |
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The system is very simple, comparing it to chess is a huge stretch...
As the map is pretty balanced it is pretty hard exploiting the opponent, and some luck can change everything.
Best example is the previous tournament, in which I lost the Inferno-Haven and Inferno-Academy match-ups vs. Sq, exactly the ones Elvin feels were unfair for him.
Anyway, I asked everybody to express their opinion about tournament rules in the registration topic, and except Zenithale who suggested all vs. all (which was obviously impossible with this huge number of contestants), I don't think there was anyone with a suggestion.
In the next tournaments, we can try other systems as well of course, I actually wasn't very sure which one to use for this one until the very last moment.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 14, 2009 08:42 PM |
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That's all I needed to hear  As for the aforementioned examples why not, I defeated zilo's orcs with fortress but that game wasn't exactly a typical match and pretty much everything went my way. Can't cite such matches as an example when certain factions need more luck to even things out. Note that I am always talking about tendencies, there are always exceptions that confirm the rule.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2009 10:58 PM |
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Hmm, to me this discussion is slightly incomprehensible. System where the first player starts striking but picks last is the best possible from limited choices if we consider striking at all.
Criticizing home court advantage (higher ranked player having advantage of being last in odd number of bouts) is also beyond comments. The whole world of sports consisting of regular season and play-offs is based on that!
Accusing opponent that he has better understanding of pairs sounds bizarre. My experience shows that there is very little difference in pair evaluation between full game and arena. So, the critique is about own mistaken assessment compared to opponent?? For instance, in previous matches versus Zilo or Tower neither of us felt screwed by the matchups we selected for OURSELVES. Now we see that people are annoyed by their very own choices...
Is the system unfair because faction comparison differs from player to player? 
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Btw, in Heroes League - the origin of arena tournaments and host for several years - there have never been such offended discussions. This strike-out system has been found eligible and the most fair by vast community of arena players over there. Are they blind or what?
Interesting that only TOHers see great collapse of fair play here  Drama is in our blood - last 2 pages of the report thread are devoted only to this hehe
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 14, 2009 11:41 PM |
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You hadn't started a drama in a while so I figured it was my turn for once  As for what you just said no comment, I have been pretty clear about what I meant and why the system is not fair. If you do not address them we cannot have a meaningful conversation rather than you saying my black is white or something similarly meaningful. Besides the issue is already over, I brought up the issue, Towerlord considered it for future arenas and there is nothing more to be said.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 09:00 AM |
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So you propose using generator rather than contemplated and deliberate choice of players involved? In other words - multiplying luck factor and avoiding responsibility?
Or you want "experts" make a "safe" pair list to compensate for limited knowledge of actual player? Doesn't it lose all sense of using one's own head and why would you even consider yourself weaker in knowledge? I repeat - my experience shows that in matchup estimation there are no "arena" experts, just H5 understanding in general. I use the same criteria judging strike-outs in full game and arena with the ONLY exception being logistics.
And lastly, once again, has the whole Heroes League community throughout the years been blind or you just see deeper and further?
P.s. I never start drama - i participate in creations of others
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 15, 2009 09:19 AM |
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Doesn't it lose all senses if finals can be decided in the most unbalanced of matchups? Mentioning the heroes league is a joke because they have indeed been using it for years as opposed to the rest here. And you are most certainly the one starting the dramas, just not directly. Your polite facade would not allow otherwise.
In other words,
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Zilo
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 09:41 AM |
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Quote:
cool move taking only unupgraded slayers
Tbh, i just f_ck up this one, simply forgot to upgrade and noticed it only when all money was gone 
My 2 cents regaring systems:
The choice that should be made before the tourney by the organizer is whether aim is a)to give some bonuses to those who know arena map better or b)make it new-user friendly.
If aim is to give some bonuses to those who know arena map better, strikeout system as now or pair strikeout are the same in the sense that vets will have the advantage. In my (strikly subjective ) opinion, I like strikeouts the way they are now, cause it adds additional element of "game before the game".
If the aim is opposite, then I see two possible options. One is "all random" option, which is good for fun games, but in the tourney imo sux. Second is to use "all random" for game 1 and then in game 2 opponents play the same matchup, but switch sides. The gains here are that the outcome is as fair as possible + new players can learn way more, if they see how same matchup can be won from both sides.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 09:42 AM |
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Strikout in itself arent that bad.Better player has the advantage but its the way its supposed to be , isnt it?
But the rules are that some players can choose second more times than another. Translating it on playoffs language its like some team played 2 matches on their stadions instead of 1 match on each stadions.Not fair.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted June 15, 2009 09:45 AM |
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I for one, see things the way Strider sees them, the strike-out system is superior to the random one, because you get to choose your own match-up, according to your heroes understanding and knowledge.
This system doesn't put any of the players in an inferior position, it is themselves who get there, by their lack of understanding of heroes. In previous tournaments, we always had differences of opinion with Zilo and Strider about which match-ups are better, depending on ones play style. Sometimes, we got into match-ups we both wanted to reach, and in which both of the sides thought they were advantaged, only to let the game and luck decide who was right
For instance in the Academy vs Inferno match-up, only 1-2 stones on the battlefield, could change the faith of the game completely... There's no way to say, that by going into that match-up, you were disadvantaged. I think, ignoring the succubi completely and other mistakes, led to your defeat, not the match-up itself.
Now, about 1st and 2nd strike-out position, they both have their advantages, and you can get good match-up from both sides, perhaps 1st striker has a 1% advantage, but that is debatable. Now, the only real advantage is home land (+1 att/+ 1 def), but as you can see in NBA play-offs, that is not abnormal at all.
And it's obvious that the player, who has done better in groups and earned a better spot, should be given a symbolic advantage, or else motivation to get 1st place in groups would lack completely, qualifying being simply enough.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 09:48 AM |
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Idd add chosing probably weakest town too(academy)
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 10:44 AM |
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Edited by Kispagat at 10:48, 15 Jun 2009.
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If the map would be perfectly balanced, nobody would use striking system. The very reason of the striking system is that people feel that there are tendencies, which matchups are (dis)favourable in the long run, so they try achieve and avoid them.
If the map would be perfectly balanced, the system would be all random.
But that is impossible for lots of reasons but mainly since the factions are different, and having limited resources by default this map is better for one faction, and worse for the other.
If we accept that, its clear that striking system will benefit the more experienced player in striking out. Thats what Elvin is complaining about and thats understandable, facing a situation where you may start all ur games with some disadvantages.
But as I see, the map is very playable, cuz this imbalance does not go beyond a certain level. Seems to me, even worst matchup is winnable.
On the other hand I need to disagree, arena is not h5. Arena is one map, which focuses on the final battle, and therefore very important, but skills, tricks here are not the same as in another maps.
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Typhys
Adventuring Hero
poisonous eye
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posted June 15, 2009 11:22 AM |
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Btw, why not choosing heroes if we can also choose towns ? That could be less disadvantaging for the player choosing town first if he can pick his hero after his opponent did so.
I'd say the only issue with this is that Helmar and Ylthin, among others, would be overused (even though Sylvan is generally striken out anyway...) but that would enhance the probabilities for the one who hasn't a favorable matchup to have a hero with an interesting specialty.
After all, you said it was all about knowledge of the game right ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 15, 2009 11:46 AM |
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I didn't say I am in favour of random, at least not in the play offs but I would not mind that either. Likewise replaying the same matchup from opposite sides while in a way fair it doesn't sound very appealing. That would be a little boring, especially in cases of fortress vs necro.
And Towerlord you need not mention my academy game, I have already commented on that.
Quote:
Continuing down my previous thoughts, had I not gotten all those spellpower artifacts, good destructive spells, icicle, defense, power of endurance the game would have EASILY been one sided. I cannot complain with what I was given but all the others were crap, does that mean that in most other games I would have to be better AND luckier than the inferno opponent? And don't tell me that is not so. Inferno can always depend on its might strategies, academy cannot depend on might and not always on magic either. And given two merchants and needing all the army and levels it can get no, you cannot invest in the spell stones with good conscience.
Academy without arcane library can end up with limited strategies against other factions, for instance you may get the destructive spells of your dreams with 6 spellpower. Or have to rely on native schools where summoning is by nature random and light may not be enough. Can't depend on obstacles and opponent may be able to pick dwarven grounds anyway.
Speaking of which if spell stones were to be more useful, wouldn't an easy solution be to check which spells they offer in the script log and erase the non native ones? Chance to get specific spells is less than 1/15 if I am not mistaken. And considering that dungeon already gets an arcane library why not academy?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted June 15, 2009 11:56 AM |
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Quote:
Academy without arcane library can end up with limited strategies against other factions, for instance you may get the destructive spells of your dreams with 6 spellpower. Or have to rely on native schools where summoning is by nature random and light may not be enough. Can't depend on obstacles and opponent may be able to pick dwarven grounds anyway.
Speaking of which if spell stones were to be more useful, wouldn't an easy solution be to check which spells they offer in the script log and erase the non native ones? Chance to get specific spells is less than 1/15 if I am not mistaken. And considering that dungeon already gets an arcane library why not academy?
The problem with arcane library would be resources... leaving them as they are would be impossible... adding more resources would mean super mega level 3 artifacts for academy on troops, and ignoring the arcane library.
Expert scripting help for improved spell stones, and other stuff would be nice
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 15, 2009 12:01 PM |
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It is possible to give or take resources from the player if he moves to a certain spot of the map so that could be a start. Asheera helped me with one such script but I'm not sure how it is implemented.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 01:09 PM |
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Kis, i disagree about statement that if the map was balanced, all factions would be equal to each other in full random. Imo the explanation lies elsewhere - H5 factions are nicely shaped by the discreet touch of "rock-paper-scissors" principle. The effect is not drastic but its presence is felt. Also, several pairs are fairly even.
Yet, as Tower pointed out, the perception of which factions are actually in roles of "rock, paper, scissors" varies among players. And that is the FUN part of this tournament So, please, let's be self-assured generals and not blame victories of others to their "better" knowledge. After all, next time lost party's assessment might be superior to opponent
Zilo's suggestion implementing bridge mechanism would bring fairness. Yet, i think that Elvin is right about it being somewhat boring.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 15, 2009 01:19 PM |
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Before taking your cheap shots think for just a moment. I blamed nobody but the system, if I could get on top by using it I would just like you. You are too busy admiring yourself talking that you don't read what the others write. Cut it out, makes you look bad 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 15, 2009 03:18 PM |
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I got most even matchup i could get necro vs necro and i still lost QQ
kiddin
I just lost to Natalka in our second game. I been making mistakes all over time right from the get go when we were strinking. We ended up in mirror. Then ton of mistakes in battle and turned out that hero wasnt so good afterall. I didnt deserve to win this one.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted June 19, 2009 03:54 PM |
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Seems the set deadline, was a little unrealistic... only zilo-theory being over by now... All other match-ups are still to be played, and to my shame, the slowest going match-up is mine vs zen.
We'll see what happens during next days..
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