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JollyJoker
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posted May 02, 2009 08:05 AM |
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Yeah, typical child reaction: it's their own fault.
Like I said, from parents to children, works fine.
I mean, the way you write this it sounds as you wouldn't know why you got whupped. You just realized that you "must have hurt them terribly", because there was so much pain in their eyes then.
Question 1:
Why would they force themselves to actually do something that was hurtful both for you (and your bros and sis) and dor them?
The best answer you can find here (really just thinking the best of them and no ulterior dark motives)is:
Answer 1:
because they thought it would be good for you.
However,
Question 2: What makes them believe that (and as a consequence, what makes YOU believe it)?
Are there any hard, factual data? Do we know from surveys, investigations and so on that spanking is just a great thing for the development of children when they did a, b or c? Nope. not so. In fact, the only point there is to make, what makes people believe that is this.
Answer 2: My parents did it, and my parents were really nice people that loved me dearly and I loved them dearly, so they MUST be right and I MUST have done something to deserve it.
Fallacy in rounding the case up: I've developed to a good person, so they were obviously right with everything they did.
There are other things that are "inherited" this way from generation to generation. Treatment of women is one. Sons and daughters alike would notice (important is the subconscious part) in how father treated mother and mother treated father. As a grown-up they would simply have adopted and copied the same kind of behaviour, matter-of-factly.
Another point that is rather important is this: you might think that everyone who got spanked might just say: well, sure, I got spanked a couple of times, but no one didn't really care for it, neither myself nor my parents, so I'll try to do differently. That might of course mean, that the parents did something wrong or better: they could have done better; all that hurt that was around might have been wasted and may not have a good fact at all, another issue lots of people don't want to touch with a 10-feet pole.
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Mytical
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posted May 02, 2009 08:39 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 09:01, 02 May 2009.
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Quote:
I mean, the way you write this it sounds as you wouldn't know why you got whupped. You just realized that you "must have hurt them terribly", because there was so much pain in their eyes then.
No actually I knew exactly what I did wrong each and every time.
Quote:
Question 1:
Why would they force themselves to actually do something that was hurtful both for you (and your bros and sis) and dor them?
The best answer you can find here (really just thinking the best of them and no ulterior dark motives)is:
Answer 1:
because they thought it would be good for you.
Yes, that is true. Never once did they do so maliciously.
Quote:
Question 2: What makes them believe that (and as a consequence, what makes YOU believe it)?
Because it worked? If I was put into time out, or grounded, I would typically repeat whatever I had done before. After a 'whupping' I never ever repeated what I done. (See below for more information on this).
Quote:
Answer 2: My parents did it, and my parents were really nice people that loved me dearly and I loved them dearly, so they MUST be right and I MUST have done something to deserve it.
And you seem to automatically assume that they don't do it to protect the child from something that could REALLY hurt the child.
Quote:
There are other things that are "inherited" this way from generation to generation. Treatment of women is one. Sons and daughters alike would notice (important is the subconscious part) in how father treated mother and mother treated father. As a grown-up they would simply have adopted and copied the same kind of behaviour, matter-of-factly.
Absolutely correct, however, this is generalization. Look at the way women are treated today as compaired to 100 years ago. I personally know things are much better.
Quote:
Another point that is rather important is this: you might think that everyone who got spanked might just say: well, sure, I got spanked a couple of times, but no one didn't really care for it, neither myself nor my parents, so I'll try to do differently. That might of course mean, that the parents did something wrong or better: they could have done better; all that hurt that was around might have been wasted and may not have a good fact at all, another issue lots of people don't want to touch with a 10-feet pole.
No I don't assume anything. Some people who spanked their children might have went 'over the line'. I know for a fact that my parents were sometimes beat till they had bruises. Yet, they never once hit me hard enough to even sting. It was not the pain that made me want to avoid it.
Now as to the three times in my life I was 'wupped'. Once was when I played with matches and burned something..we almost lost our house.
One time was when I ran into the road and almost got hit by a car.
The only other time I got 'whupped' was when I snuck out and went to a party with older children. There was alcohol, weed, and other things there. Now my mother and father could care less about 'experimenting' (they did prefer if I did it be in our own house however)..but the fact that they did not know where I was and that I was with older boys, and that I lied to them was the issue.
Edit : Also...prey tell where is the data that not spanking a child is better then doing so? (Remember we are not talking abuse level here). Almost all the children I know (and I have a rather large family, lots of children in said family also) who never were spanked are spoiled rotten. They throw tantrums, curse, etc. When their parents do the 'time out' and grounding it is a joke to the children. Yet every one of my relatives that use 'corporal punishment' have well behaved children. I find that hard to call a coincidence.
There is a real life experience I know of that may provide some data. One of my sisters is opposed to corporal punishment, veheminately. My brother was not. She asked him to babysit for about 3 months (off and on of course). He warned her that if he did so, he would use corporal punishment. She was in such a bind she had to agree. The difference in the children were night and day.
When he started babysitting, the oldest child would threaten to hit his mom..beat up on the younger children, and basically do whatever he felt like doing. He didn't fear time out, or grounding. The younger ones (there were three total children) were a bit better, but not much. By the time he stopped babysitting..the older child was much better behaved. He had stopped cursing, stopped threating his mother, and stopped beating up the younger children. Now I was there off and on, and the process was very gradual. I would love to observe this over greater periods of time, with more children however. One person (even with 3 children) does not make for a very convincing study.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 02, 2009 09:43 AM |
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To say this right away, what you say now is that you got spanked thrice in your life, and at least twice of it was obviously to underline something that was heavily connected with a danger to die - I wouldn't say, that is spanking in the sense we speak about because it hasn't got anything to do with your behaviour, if you know what I mean - it's along the same lines than people will say, "don't touch, that is HOT", but don't keep a child from really touching it, because you learn something best what you feel.
So those two were basically on the same line - they wouldn't have spanked you, if you HAD been hit by a car, but escaped with a broken arm, and they wouldn't have spanked you if you had burned yourself by trying to burn down the house.
I wouldn't make any fuss about that, and I have no problem with something like that. It's not a means of disciplining in this case.
Basically every wacko running around today has suffered abuse at home one way or another - heavy abuse, mostly.
The other story about your sister, that simply sounds like there was no parenting at all - no father (right?), with mom being pretty tied up with making sure they simply survive. That's always a bad situation. Children need time and care.
Which is the problem today. Children aren't spoilt because they don't get a spanking one in a while. Children are spoilt because they are left to themselves and the telly, and since we live in material wealth we can afford to simply "give them something" instead of actually play with them, speak with them, show them things, tell them stories. We don't take the time to actually teach them things (I mean "we" as a wkole). In earlier times it was NECESSARY that children would work within or without the household, help on the field or in the shop, after school, help mom in the kitchen and so on.
Today? Dishwasher, washing machine, cars to go shopping, and so on. There isn't much left for children to do as a duty: emptying the waste bin, take care of the kitty litter, feed the pets, tidy their own rooms, help cooking. And even THAT involves consequentual supervising and making sure that duties are fulfilled even if gramma comes visiting and so on.
So - the example of your sister just shows that parenting needs time and parents, otherwise children will "run wild". At a certain stage, naturally it gets difficult.
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Mytical
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posted May 02, 2009 10:00 AM |
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There was a father actually, but both parents had started working a lot of hours. My brother in law was in construction, my sister was a legal secretary. Both were working a lot, but my sister had just started when she asked for my brothers help. Before that she was not working, and did spend a lot of time with the kids.
I do agree that corporal punishment should only be used for serious things that might imperil a childs well being. Swatting a childs hand before he/she touches that stove might very well save them from getting burned. But I disagree that one 'whupping' is different from another. Now, if there are bruises or welts or such, yes that is undeniably wrong. I think we've both made our side clear (and kept it pleasant) so lets move to the next big subject.
We agree on the weapon control things (including the no personal atomic bomb thing. At most I would say a high powered rifle. No tanks or rocket launchers thanks. Although I could fashion together my own flamethrower in a pinch. I just wouldn't want to chance being the one to use it the first time lol.)
Hmm. Ah the issue we do disagree on..personal responsibility.
If I am correct (and please tell me if I am mistaken)..you contend that instructing a child to use something (firearms - martial arts) makes a parent responsible for a younger person (lets say 13-14 for good measure?) solely? (ie it is not the younger persons fault at all?)
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JollyJoker
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posted May 02, 2009 01:55 PM |
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You know, that's a difficult question.
Generally spoken (there will come a big HOWEVER, though) it's ALWAYS the fault of the parents and the society - kids in a gang, dealing dope, javing gun fights? blame the run-down neighborhood, bad schooling, and so on; kid running amok? he just CANNOT have had the parenting he'd have needed.
HOWEVER, that's simply impractical as a point of view, because ultimately it means that NO ONE is to blame for ANYTHING.
That leaves, as the line to be drawn, the ability to discern between WRONG and RIGHT, between GOOD and EVIL, between LAWFUL and DESPERADO.
Teaching what's wrong and what's right, is the important thing, and a child would be responsible for their own deeds when they are able to discern that.
Obviously, a child that was raised by a maniac, teaching his child WRONG, won't be responsible - it will be treated from wrong-conditioning, not penalized.
A child that CAN discern between wrong and right - and psychologits can check that, sgould be held responsible, though. This is done for grown-ups as well (the check).
I don't know whether that's answering your question, though.
A small PS to the spanking:
What I meant is this: say you did something terribly stupid and dangerous that you just lucked out, nit even REALIZING the danger, the whupping isn't a penalty or a something to discipline. It's basically correcting the fact that the event left no mark to SHOW YOU the danger.
While this is obvious for SOME things, it's not so obvious for others: Going on a party might be PERCEIVED as dangerous, but the danger is not for life, but for something else, and here it gets vague and blurred. Lastly there are the slaps and spankings for discipline - speaking up when grown-ups are talking: whack; coming home from playing outside 10 minutes late; not eating up or eating at all; leaving things lying around. These things.
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Mytical
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posted May 03, 2009 06:40 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:48, 03 May 2009.
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First to all the people who have put input into this I thank you . Didn't mean to sound like I am ignoring you (realised it may seem so). Sometimes I have a one track mind.
@JJ I have a different outlook then most people, and this is no exception. My views can be somewhat unmainstream..to say the least. The excuses given so far are all part of what I like to call the 'not me' generation. Nobody takes responsibility (or very few do) for thier own actions. It is always somebody else (or something elses) fault. Society, being poor, etc. What it boils down to, to me, is this.
A person steals something, blames it on his/her upbringing and being poor. Yet there are people who had worse lives, who never have stolen anything. That is just an excuse. If they steal something to eat or drink, sure I would (if I was the one giving out punishments) be ultra lenient..but if they steal a stereo or something similar..not so much.
Violence does beget violence, but there are plenty of people who have broken the cycle. As the case of my parents, who were beaten till bruised..yet they themselves are peaceful and gentle souls. I do not follow the theory that a person gets a pass just because they have had a bad life. Yes, there are individuals that through some birth defect or damage to the brain have reduced capacity to understand right from wrong. These individuals I can understand being lenient to..and hospitalization over prison. Barring that I find no good 'excuse' for killing somebody.
Which leads us to age. Here are 4 scenarios. I want everybody's verdict that will give it on each, including why. For all examples both George and Billybob are age 13. Who (if anybody) is guilty of what?
1st Scenario. George attacks Billybob. Billybob defends himself, and accidently kills George. Both George and Billybob's parents are still alive, and had them learn martial arts.
2nd Scenario. George attacks Billybob. Billybob charges George, who sidesteps and sends Billybob off a cliff. Both George and Billybob's parents are still alive, and had them learn martial arts.
3rd Scenario. George attacks Billybob. Billybob defends himself, and accidently kills George. Neither kids' parents are still alive, but both set of parents had their children learn martial arts.
4th Scenario. George attacks Billybob. Billybob charges George, who sidesteps and sends Billybob off a cliff. Neither kids' parents are still alive, but both set of parents had their children learn martial arts.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 03, 2009 11:00 AM |
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I imagine, that you misread my post. 
What I said was basically this: the CAUSE of whether a person is doing something wrong or not is always parenting/society. You may say, if you plant a see, then what becomes of it depends mostly on
a) the seed quality itself (genetics)
b) the soil it's planted in (neighborhood and fanily)
c) the care it gets in pruning, making sure it grows straight by maybe supporting it and so on, additional watering (parenting)
d) climate, sun, rain, frost, ice and so on (society, schooling)
However, humans are no plants, and looking for causes elsewhere leads to no results and an inability to draw a line ANYWHERE (for example, blaming the parents doesn't lead anywhere, because they themselves are not to blame either, seince they had parents as well and so on)
That's why the line MUST NECESSARILY be drawn, and this line is the question of whether a) someone knew what they were doing (which has something to do with age), and b) someone KNEW OR HAD THE ABILITY OR EVEN CHANCE DO DEDUCT whether it was wrong what he or she did or not (which has nothing to do with age at all).
That means, no matter the social situation, if a boy KNOWS that the person right in from of him will probably die if he pulls the trigger, and if that person knows as can at least deduct from similar situations or examples within his experience that it is WRONG to do so, then the boy is guiltay, no matter his age.
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Mytical
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posted May 03, 2009 11:06 AM |
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So basically, we are in agreement. Interesting. Sometimes I do have difficulty conveying what I mean, and that does tend to get me into some interesting situations. Somewhere between my brain and my fingers something gets lost in the translation.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 03, 2009 12:03 PM |
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Yes, I think in practical terms we are in agreement.
Now, of course there my be extenuating circumstances.
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Wolfsburg
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posted May 03, 2009 02:42 PM |
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Back from the weekend! Lovely "médicins sans frontières" congress in São Paulo. Inspiring.
This thread has grown quite a bit during my absence. Phew! You guys have to slow down otherwise I will soon not be able to catch up! 
About corporal punishment, whupping, spanking or wathever we may call it. I think what we definatelly need here is some good old scientifical articles. Just for sakes of backgrounding our arguments. I know children who never got spanked and turned out to be wondeful people (e.g my wife) and others who turned into disgusting brats. I have seen both classes within the group who DID get spanked as well. But how do my perceptions count here? I am just a single, biased, observant, with a hint about a social phenomenon. Thats VERY LOW grade of evidence. At best.
As far as I notice, the core of this discussion boiled down to: wether physical punishment of children is good for society or not. I think the most adequate way to do it would be doing some research on the subject.
Im starting today a bit of research on psychology journals to see what I can dig off. I am quite sure there has been piles of material produced on the matter on the past few years. Child-spanking has fueled more than a couple of heaten discussion both within bioethics and psychology.
...Or we can further try to impress each other with the life-examples we know.
W.
P.S - I have spanked children before. 
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Minion
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posted May 03, 2009 03:15 PM |
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Welcome back W.
Yeah some studies would be great, post what you can find Although the discussion has been interesting actually. A lot has been covered. But most studies seem to focus on physical abuse of children and how it affects them, and I hope we have settled that no one is favoring that. In Finland we have had an antispanking law since 1984. The purpose of the law is to gradually change the attitude people have about raising their children "the old fashioned way" which puts the parent in a godly position, and the child is subject to beatings. The ban doesn't hurt so called normal (in this context, the ones that don't abuse their children) families in any way but makes the lives of some children in troubled families a lot better.
But yeah bring some studies to the mix, a rather emotional topic
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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 04:35 PM |
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I remember we took a poll in a class I had about how many of the people had been spanked as children. Everyone except for me was. These were the smartest people in the school.
So take from that what you will.
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angelito
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posted May 03, 2009 06:39 PM |
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Quote:
I remember we took a poll in a class I had about how many of the people had been spanked as children. Everyone except for me was. These were the smartest people in the school.
So take from that what you will.
We knew you'd miss something in your life ...
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blizzardboy
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posted May 03, 2009 06:40 PM |
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Quote:
I remember we took a poll in a class I had about how many of the people had been spanked as children. Everyone except for me was. These were the workhorses in the school.
So take from that what you will.
Fixed.
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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 08:36 PM |
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Mytical
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posted May 04, 2009 12:34 PM |
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Ok you are the judge of a trial. The defendant has stolen some food to feed his children. You know nothing of his past, only that he has stolen some food. What punishment do you give?
Responsibility..how many excuses do you make in a given day? You were late because of traffic (why did you not start earlier?), you didn't get something done on time because? You did something incorrect because: Wrong information, 'it has always been done this way', you were never showed how to do it? Think about this before you answer it.
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mvassilev
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posted May 04, 2009 02:56 PM |
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Punishment: How much is the cost of the food he stole? How likely is it that he got caught? So take the value and divide it by the likelihood of him getting caught - and there's your punishment.
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Mytical
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posted May 04, 2009 03:18 PM |
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And if you can't determine how likely it was he would be caught?
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mvassilev
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posted May 04, 2009 03:43 PM |
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Well, we know about how often theft happens, plus how often people are prosecuted for it, so we know.
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Wolfsburg
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posted May 04, 2009 03:47 PM |
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*Sweaty Wolfsburg enters the room
Guys, it is unbelievably hard to find free articles on physical punishment of children. The ones I found for free were clearly not as scientifical as I aimed for (lacking information on method, biases, and from the abstract on, you notice a clear need to point out physical punishment as being inadequate.)
The ideal articles, from renowned universities and study groups are (of course) only accessible for purchase, or for those who have an access platform for such institutions. (I just own an access key to a single network, called Uptodate, which works exclusively with "medical" subjects, and where I've found absolutely NOTHING concerning the matter. Public library of science (PLoS) was a place where I would likely find something about it, but I had no luck there either. Since my university offers no platform for such accesses (believe it or not), my only possibility would be using the network from Instituto Oswaldo Cruz in Rio, which would certainly grant me many of those access keys for free. But the institute is 60km away from home and I got no other reasons to visit it for the time being. I'll try searching through the brazilian public platform of access for students as a last resort. I've found great stuff there in the past.
I'll get back to you shortly.
W.
P.S - Dont spank your kids in the meanwhile
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