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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 04:40 PM |
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Education
To put it simply, the American education system sucks. My friend recently wrote this, which sums up my thoughts quite well:Quote:
Have you ever considered how much you can learn in a single day?
I'm sure many psychologists have attempted to figure this out. With the thousands of terabytes of information that each persons brain can theoretically store, I'm sure that we are not using our own abilities to its maximum capacity. In fact average people's brains will generally cycle at only 25 a second and generally use just 10% of the brain at a time. These statistics are fairly low for what a healthy human being can max out at.
For the last two years, I have felt somewhat "spoon fed" at school. Having some diversity with NOC [a nearby community college] courses showed such a contrast that I now feel disillusioned to the fact that I have not been learning to the maximum capacity that I desire.
If you picture a class of students sitting at a dinner table with a teacher this is what you might see.
The student is sitting their with their arms crossed and saying. NO! You can't make me! So the teacher struggles and says here comes the choo choo... The problem is that the other students at the table cannot get a bite of food until that student has been fed.
Another problem is that some teachers refuse to even "cook" the knowledge. These teachers are the kind that say... "Oh? You want something to eat? Well. There's the kitchen. There's the pantry. Cook something up real quick." The problem with this is that most students will not have the initiative to actually "cook" up some knowledge and learn something.
There can also be a problem when a teacher has used the same kind of spoon their entire life to feed a room of twenty students, (don't let the Health Department know but then is told by someone of a higher power that they should use a different spoon and hold it in their left hand. This is sure to change the pace of dinner, and slow the process of knowledge dispersion.
Students can also be a problem. They can cause classroom disturbances(like me), hinder the pace of learning by not wanting to learn, and lower a teachers moral, but students and teachers must co-exist. (the more students the more money the school gets appropriated for it and the more possible jobs)
I believe that a teacher should cook a full meal of knowledge and set a plate in front of each student. Then if the student chooses to take a bite, then he or she will become a stronger person and be better prepared for life. I think that teachers dealing with any mature student should understand that they can eat with their own fork and knife, not just a spoon. It is the teachers job to cook the meal. It is the students job to clean their plate.
I believe that it should be an honor, a privilege even, to be a teacher, a molder of young minds, an influence on the future. The teachers and administration need to be given higher standards so that this can be accomplished. The community and students will then respect them for their position. Because teachers are what shape and mold the future of this country, they should not be short changed. They, and the administration, must be respected and given higher standards to live by, so that the future generations will succeed.
Your spoon should never be too big
So, what is to be done?
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TheDeath
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posted May 03, 2009 05:48 PM |
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I really don't like to sound like wanting to boost my ego, but in this case, I do not know how to say it otherwise...
follow my example? 
90% of what I know, it was not from school. 
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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 06:00 PM |
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Yeah, but your example doesn't always work. Not everyone is passionate about something. Plus, they have to discover it first - and that won't come out of nowhere.
And another function of school is government-provided daycare - it keeps kids there while the parents are at work. When the kids are at school, they aren't vandalizing stores.
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Doomforge
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posted May 03, 2009 06:12 PM |
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If your system is catastrophic, replace it with Polish system to make it a total apocalypse.
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xerox
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posted May 03, 2009 06:53 PM |
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I love school and thinks its really exciting and fun.
Right now we work on Norse mythology (previously Greek mythology) in the subject Swedish and Law & Order in the subject SO = Social Oriented Subjects.
SO is splitted into Society, Religion, History and Geography.
And NO is Natural Oriented Subjects and splitted into Science, Chemistry and Biology.
In SO we might go to and real lawsuit/district court!
I cant wait at the end of this season when we will be writing an story. As I write a book I will print some of it out and give it to her.
If the books ever get released then this is roughly what will stand on the backcover of the first two.
Northlands
In the Snow Elven capital of the Silver Spires the fate of humans are decided. The Snow Elf ambassdor Zelinde travels to the wood elven capital Diraliss to council with the race about what tomorrow brings.
And on the continent of Aevlon and the human nation only known as the Kingdom, the King Lethor has lost all his family to the Nordyr except his wife. And now its enough...
An Officier makes an terrible mistake against a battle with the half-giants.
As a punishment, his son Caelst is forced to go on an scout mission to the Northlands.
But Cael doesnt not go alone. The fair Priestess Aela assits him along with an savage to travel through the NORTHLANDS.
And on their way to Hiemgarde they soon understand that war has come to Aevlon. An war that might have been caused by one Kings depression and rage...
The Kingdom
While Caelst and Aela sits imprisoned in Hiemgarde, betrayed by the hunter Helmar, the humans are recovering from the Siege of Eagle's Crest.
Although the Snow Elves decided to not directly assist the humans against their war on the Nordyr, they do consider learning them Mastery over Magic.
With magic introducted, a new conflict starts when the both the powerful influencers the Church and the House of Nobles feel threatened by it - resulting in an civil war and perhaps total anarchy.
And as the King seeks to restore his bloodline at all costs, the true background of one major character is revealed.
When the Church becomes more desperate they turn into using a new kind of faith and source of power. A much, much darker one.
Will the KINGDOM and humanity be able to survive an civil war while the Nordyr lurks close, awaiting the perfect moment for an attack?
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Over himself, over his own
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mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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Vlaad
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posted May 03, 2009 07:17 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 19:18, 03 May 2009.
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Your friend has raised a few interesting questions:Quote:
The problem is that the other students at the table cannot get a bite of food until that student has been fed.
The solution is differentiated instruction.Quote:
Another problem is that some teachers refuse to even "cook" the knowledge.
And rightly so. There's something called learner autonomy, but the problem is teachers often fail to teach students how to study.Quote:
There can also be a problem when a teacher has used the same kind of spoon their entire life.
Teachers are (or should be) required to pass standardized exams in the subjects they teach and the methods of teaching those subjects, as well as undergo evaluation and take additional courses once in a while.Quote:
Students can also be a problem. They can cause classroom disturbances
Boys will be boys. Motivation should be teacher's first task, although it's easier said than done.
Nice cartoon, by the way.
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Corribus
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posted May 03, 2009 07:19 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:20, 03 May 2009.
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The problem starts with compensation. It takes the brightest minds to teach the brightest minds. But why would our brightest minds go into teaching? You can barely survive on a teacher's salary. That's not going to lure in our best and brightest - they're all going into medicine and business. It's the same reason our nation is falling behind in science and technology.
I would have loved to have been a teacher, and I would have made a damn good one. But for 35-40K a year? Please. It's a disgrace.
Also problematic is the disproportionate amount of educational resources that go children with below-average intelligence versus those that to the budding geniuses. We have all these publicly funded special schools and programs for "challenged children", but the kids with IQs >140 (or whatever) sit predominantly in normal classrooms.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 08:41 PM |
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Vlaad:
Quote:
The solution is differentiated instruction.
I can see how this would work in math or grammar. But how would this work in other subjects?
Corribus:
I think part of the problem is not that teachers are paid little, per se, it's that they're not paid enough. Allow me to explain. Teachers are paid a decent salary for the amount of hours they spend at school. But they do much of their work outside of school - planning lessons, grading papers, etc. - and don't get a cent for that. And teachers do get a lot of time off.
But I agree with everything else you said.
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And standardized testing is another can of worms.
It is well recognized that one of the major flaws of the current education system is that it is infected with the idea of “teaching to” instead of “learning”. The goal is to get a good grade – whether on a test or in a class in general – rather than to learn the subject. People do not study a subject – people study to pass a test in a class about the subject, and what they do learn is merely incidental. This does not guarantee the acquisition of knowledge in a subject; nor does it guarantee that a person with a given university degree actually knows the subject well – just that he/she was capable of doing well on the tests about the subject. It’s not the same thing.
So what is to be done? Should grades be done away with, so learning would be focused “on” the subject rather than “about” it? Not quite. The other side of the coin is signaling. While these tests/grades may not entirely measure the knowledge of an actual subject, they do reflect some degree of familiarity with it, and thus are useful. Let us say, for example, that a school wishes to hire a teacher, and look at that teacher’s information. Without some measure of the teacher’s accomplishments, the school would be taking what would be at best a wild poke when selecting among potential teachers. Of course, good grades may not guarantee that a teacher would actually be good at teaching, but bad grades would probably indicate a potential poor performance.
What should be done? The more one focuses on actual learning, the greater the risk is of someone mediocre slipping through. The more one focuses on signaling, the greater the risk of teaching to the test – and then someone who knows the test, not the subject, slips through. Is there any solution?
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Geny
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posted May 03, 2009 08:51 PM |
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That's why job interviews exist. Getting a good grade only means that you will have a better chance of getting an opportunity to work. The rest is decided by interviews where people asks you questions testing your knowledge and possibly on your firsts weeks/months of work where your superiors test your actual ability.
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xerox
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posted May 03, 2009 09:52 PM |
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So you say I shouldn't even go to school?
I want to be a journalist but there is no such training course in Örebro. So I guess I'll trying to be an IT civil engineer or something
I just hope it has nothing to do with engineering
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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TheDeath
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posted May 03, 2009 10:01 PM |
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Off topic: Mvass are you seriously arguing about the prices? It's just the way it is, you said before that you don't decide but the market/demand does. Capitalism, you know?
Couldn't resist, sorry.
On topic: in my country there have been COUNTLESS HUNDREDS (or more) of false degrees just RECENTLY discovered. I wonder, how come people did not discover previously all those years that the people who used them were unskilled? Answer: because they weren't, they were skilled.
May I ask, why would you fire them now because they don't have a ****ty piece of paper when they did the job fine before? Isn't this a case of hypocrisy?
The solution, obviously, would be to get rid of degrees (and schools like that, instead of just learning for the sake of it), and test people if the boss wants when he hires them.
This sounds so silly. It's a sad day when people value papers more than brains, as it can be seen, or this 'omg outrage' would be so insignificant, and it is in my opinion.
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Vlaad
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posted May 03, 2009 10:30 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 22:38, 03 May 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
The solution is differentiated instruction.
I can see how this would work in math or grammar. But how would this work in other subjects?
True, it's usually applied to those two but there are lots of possibilities when it comes to P.E. or Science, for example.
Quote:
Teachers are paid a decent salary for the amount of hours they spend at school. But they do much of their work outside of school - planning lessons, grading papers, etc. - and don't get a cent for that. And teachers do get a lot of time off.
It all counts, as well as all the extracurricular activities, clubs, school trips, board meetings and whatnot.Quote:
people study to pass a test
This is true, but are there no other grades aside from papers and tests (e.g. oral exams, projects, homework)?
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mvassilev
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posted May 03, 2009 11:59 PM |
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TheDeath:
Quote:
Mvass are you seriously arguing about the prices? It's just the way it is, you said before that you don't decide but the market/demand does. Capitalism, you know?
Except the market isn't really setting teachers' salaries anyway, seeing as how they're employed by the government.
Quote:
The solution, obviously, would be to get rid of degrees (and schools like that, instead of just learning for the sake of it), and test people if the boss wants when he hires them.
That wouldn't work in every field. It could work with, say, 3D designers, but what about teachers, or university professors, or psychologists - indeed, any job where performance is hard to measure?
Vlaad:
Quote:
True, it's usually applied to those two but there are lots of possibilities when it comes to P.E. or Science, for example.
I understand how it could be used in PE, to an extent. And science. But there's only so much it can do. Plus, it can't be used for literature, art, or anything like that.
Quote:
It all counts, as well as all the extracurricular activities, clubs, school trips, board meetings and whatnot.
I know about that, but do they really get paid for grading homework outside of school?
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blizzardboy
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posted May 04, 2009 12:26 AM |
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I'm guessing you're talking about U.S. education? I think part of the blame simply goes to the culture. Young intellectual kids are an object of disgrace in our society, which is rather ridiculous. When you're taught from your peers since age 6 that being a moron is cool (obviously that's not how they look at it, but that's the truth of it), it really dissuades the whole learning process. I'm sure this exists to a certain extent in other countries as well, but I dunno... maybe it's just more common in the U.S. than a lot of other places?
The U.S. also doesn't allow very much specialization, so kids don't have a lot of opportunity to gear themselves towards what they're more passionate about.
I think a final problem, as has been discussed, is simply that funding outright blows in some places. The U.S. education system on the whole doesn't suck, it's just that you have poorly-funded urban schools dotted here and there that tremendously bring down the nations averages. So much of the problem could be solved through treating specific areas. You'll find that a disproportionate amount of elites in our country come from more rural areas.
And last but not least, the Russian-Jew-Alien-Demons are transmitting scrambler beams into our nation's schools that distract our children.
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Vlaad
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posted May 04, 2009 12:40 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 00:41, 04 May 2009.
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Quote:
it can't be used for literature, art, or anything like that.
I guess so. Sometimes the teacher can provide supplemental material, organize group or pair work, come up with a variety of tasks. If you're interested, please post a specific question and I'll try to give additional examples.
Mixed ability classes are hard to work with, especially if there are 20+ students. On the other hand, there are reasons kids are placed in those...
Quote:
Quote:
It all counts, as well as all the extracurricular activities, clubs, school trips, board meetings and whatnot.
I know about that, but do they really get paid for grading homework outside of school?
Actually yes, they do. It all counts as working hours. Dunno about the States, but I never spent more than four hours a day teaching, plus I had three months off.
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mvassilev
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posted May 04, 2009 01:07 AM |
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blizzardboy:
Exactly.  Now how do we go about fixing it?
Vlaad:
Quote:
If you're interested, please post a specific question and I'll try to give additional examples.
Well, suppose kids are being asked to read "The Scarlet Letter". Some of them understand it easily. Others don't. How do you go about teaching it?
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blizzardboy
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posted May 04, 2009 01:25 AM |
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Quote:
blizzardboy:
Exactly. Now how do we go about fixing it?
It's not a problem that will be fixed overnight. It will take at least one full generation.
The first critical step is to make these schools safe; even if it means more law enforcement actively taking a part in the school system. These crappy urban schools have crappy teachers because respectable teachers don't want to work somewhere that isn't even safe. Make it safe and you'll naturally have a better workpool of teachers to work with.
You can talk about fine-tuning the education system and whatnot later, but before any of this, you need to give these schools safety.
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mvassilev
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posted May 04, 2009 01:28 AM |
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Yeah, but how to even go about doing that? More security guards? Making a school feel like a concentration camp isn't the solution, either.
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blizzardboy
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posted May 04, 2009 01:34 AM |
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Quote:
Yeah, but how to even go about doing that? More security guards? Making a school feel like a concentration camp isn't the solution, either.
It's definitely not preferable, but if active law enforcement is what it takes, that's what needs to be done.
It's also all connected with the larger problem that there's a lot of crime in the U.S. Having a high crime area subsequently means a high crime school, which subsequently means low quality teachers and public neglect. You can't expect a crime-filled neighborhood to have a marble-paved school with a great learning atmosphere.
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mvassilev
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posted May 04, 2009 01:49 AM |
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So, what? Bulldoze the ghettos and scatter their inhabitants?
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