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Makka
Tavern Dweller
Lord of Ruin
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posted August 18, 2003 05:09 AM |
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Sad are your stories, and the pain of losing a friend or someone you love would be hard to handle.
We all die sooner or later. It is understandable that some would prefer the sooner to the later, especially if they are suffering from some pain in there lives or growing old scares them.
But of course, it is wiser to seek professional help first or talk to friends or family.
If you know someone who committed suicide, did they actually tell you they were thinking of it, and if so did you take them seriously?
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted August 18, 2003 10:19 AM |
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My experience has been that the people who say they are gonna do it don't..it's the silent ones that do
One of them (I found out after) had planned it for months before ,to do it a few days after his birthday
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted August 18, 2003 02:09 PM |
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Quote:
ALl parents shoul;d be like that unfortunately theres a good % that love thier children to death but dont show it at all & it can affect a child.
Especially if theres a drug or alcohol relation etc.
Then don't you agree that those you can't should at least get their kids to someone who can, before doing irreversible harm to them? It just kills me when I read about people that beat an infant to death, or leave it to die in the cold, when they could have dropped the child off at a hospital or where police could have found it alive and given a chance to live.
Children are not asked to be brought into this world.
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Gaia Forums
Guardians Grove
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted August 18, 2003 05:06 PM |
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That kind of thing depends, often the parent is unaware of the effect they have on the child, my sister for example did once leave her eldest child out in the cold once outside her partners door, believing him to be home, but ignoring her, as she felt incapable of looking after the child anymore. Unfortunately he was not in, and wasn't in for another 3 hours...
Soon after she attempted to kill herself when she found out what she had done unknowingly.
Also sometimes a parent will pass the child to someone else when they cannot control the child or themselves, this also happened with my sister. What also sometimes happens though is they will, after some time (be it short or long) feel they can cope once more, and take the child back. In her case it was a short time, and she could not cope then either. A cycle of her having the child, loosing control and passing the child to us, and regaining control, followed by taking her back became the norm for 6 months.
Terrible time for all concerned 
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted August 19, 2003 03:14 PM |
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Especially if the child grows up with the same warped sense of values, because that's all they knew.My 1st husband grew up seeing his father beat his mother up all the time. He knew that this was wrong, and you think he would have leaned that it's not the right thing to do. Yet he grew up, married me, and did the same thing to me that his father did to his mother.
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Gaia Forums
Guardians Grove
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goodpig
Adventuring Hero
The King of Pork!!!
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posted August 23, 2003 04:00 AM |
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Many suicides happen because of circumstance and can be stopped however. The relative I mentioned embezzled money and one of his coworkers wuz gonna bust him and he couldn't deal with it so he made his choice.
Choice. That's what its all about.... how people cope with life for example... say I embezzled money I could either face it like a man and do some time (maybe) or I can kill myself and take the "easy" way out. It's all about choices people who cannot make rational choices and cannot tell the diference btwn right and wrong are insane and they should be institionalized UNTIL they heal. Note that I'm not keeping them their for life just till they get better.
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Qui n'a plus qu'un moment a vivre N'a plus rien a dissimuler.
Atys
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2003 02:27 AM |
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i think if your going kill yourself the least you should do is make it look like it was an accident (like getting hit by a car) and dont leave a note.
Better for everyone you are abandoning.
Leaving a note i think is really pathetic and cowardly just a way to blame others.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 06, 2003 04:09 PM |
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defanately easiar said then done.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted September 06, 2003 05:42 PM |
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Getting hit by a car? And make the driver a suspect and maybe even convicted?
Arangar
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2003 06:22 PM |
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Better a complete stranger than everyone you know.
Anyway you look at it, its a very selfish act
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted September 09, 2003 09:34 AM |
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People who die of cancer, or heart disease, or asthma, or any other physical ailment also leave a mess of grief behind. No one accuses them of being selfish or cowardly for succumbing. Why should victims of mental disease be seen differently?
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted September 09, 2003 02:20 PM |
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Quote:
People who die of cancer, or heart disease, or asthma, or any other physical ailment also leave a mess of grief behind. No one accuses them of being selfish or cowardly for succumbing. Why should victims of mental disease be seen differently?
Why?
Because if a disease such as some of those you mentioned, has won the battle that your body has been fighting for months, or years, you die.
Mental illness, can be often be treated with drugs and or supervision. Death occurs when the patient chooses to give up.
Very rarely do you here os someone with heart disease, or cancer just giving up.
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Gaia Forums
Guardians Grove
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted September 18, 2003 07:58 PM |
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With any illness, mental or physical:
1) Sometimes the disease isn't diagnosed in time, no treatment is given, and the person dies.
2) Sometimes the treatment doesn't work, the disease progresses past the point of no return, and the person dies.
3) Sometimes the treatment stops working for whatever reason, the disease progresses, and the person dies.
4) Sometimes the treatment itself is so unpleasant or last-resort (extreme measures) that the patient decides not to put themselves through it, and the patient dies.
Yes, mental illness can be treated with drugs, but someone on the verge of suicide on account of depression/bipolar/schizophrenia, etc. isn't able to step back from their situation and say "Hey, I'm sick. Maybe if I get treatment, things won't look so bad!" It's the nature of the beast -- emotion overwhelms reason. The person gives up because their illness has blinded them to hope. Their "choices" aren't as free as you assume.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted September 18, 2003 08:48 PM |
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Well said, Khaelo. Well said.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 18, 2003 10:51 PM |
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Quote:
Mental illness, can be often be treated with drugs and or supervision. Death occurs when the patient chooses to give up.
I'm sorry but this is quite insultingly wrong. Mentally ill people do not "choose" to die, some ilnesses cannot be treated via anything short of drugging the person so fully they have no life or existence whatsoever anyway. Many depressed people have no idea what they do some days, believe me, I know some who have tried more than once and it tears them apart to know they loose total control of their mind for days sometimes with no recollection later what they have done.
It sounds from what you said as if you have not had to deal with the issue directly and are merely commenting from afar. That is no position to be commenting on such a subject from.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 18, 2003 11:24 PM |
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Your getting to warped up Hudson.
Anyone can choose to give up if they feel theres no other options.
It can be worked up in you for yrs when it feels like no one loves yall anymore even family etc.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 19, 2003 12:16 AM |
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You are talking about a logical, rationally thinking person, in a large majority of mentally ill people neither of these are the case. That is what makes it unthinking, not a choice.
I'm more than aware some do choose, I believe we've had this discussion before and I stated my views then, no need to go back over it. I'm merely stating that I have very real personal experience with people who have tried to take their life recently, and anyone who thinks most mentally ill people do it from choice either has no real knowledge or simply is making a sweeping statement.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted September 19, 2003 02:55 PM |
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Quote:
It sounds from what you said as if you have not had to deal with the issue directly and are merely commenting from afar. That is no position to be commenting on such a subject from.
My father-in-law shot my mother-in-law 5 times, before turning the gun on himself. This doesn't exactly sound like a sane person to me.
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Gaia Forums
Guardians Grove
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 19, 2003 07:16 PM |
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*sighs* That comment wasn't directed to you actually and is totally misrepresenting my argument to prove a totally different point. You're talking about a murderer, I'm talking about people who are depressed, bi-polar and so on and when in that state often loose control of their actions.
Unless you're arguing your father in law was insane, but all kind of things could seperate him again from the kind of person I am talking about and him.
Either way you're just generalising assuming everyone who has mental ilnesses choose to die, it's dangerous and bigotted.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted September 19, 2003 10:25 PM |
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Just to interject a note to all my friends who have very strong feelings about this subject, for obvious reasons.
First, there is probably only one thing people who have had this element of human reality touch their lives can agree on, and that is that it cuts us all very deeply, whether we have been suicidal ourselves or had individuals close to us depart (or contemplate departing) in such a fashion. So when you feel anger either toward another or being directed to you on these things, try to remember to have compassion.
Each case is different, which is your point I believe PH. Also, there are some similarities among certain categories, which I think is Khaelo's point. IMHO you are both correct on your points.
When these variations on themes become so personal as to lead to a loss for us, it is almost too much to bear for many of us left behind. So we have deep seated pains that sometimes express themselves through being left helpless, wondering what we could have or should have done differently, the anger toward the person who has departed us, and/or any number of things. Each one of us deals with it in different ways, but it is never, ever easy. With such a thing, each person's reactions are legitimate; each person's struggle to understand is legitimate.
Please be gentle with one another. Sorry to be a Momma Bear if that's the way I'm coming across. But this is a very difficult topic for all of us who have been touched by it.
Having been close to a person who ended with a homicide/suicide myself, I will only say this. The actor had been in terrible physical pain for decades, and the reasons he took a family member with him ran deep and were very personal. He was trying to save someone else's life in doing what he did. In his mind, which had been altered by his pain and despair, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing. This is not to excuse what he did, but it is just to point out that every case is different and unique, and that a person who has reached that point is frequently not judging things the same way someone else not in their position would have.
Hopefully, the point of our dialogue here is to try and understand it better, and in that way be supportive of one another. In that vein I will only add this one recent report I caught wind of (in a timely fashion as it turns out).
The correlation between manic-depressive disorder (otherwise known as bipolar disorder) and suicide is very, very high. So Tigerangelz, while there are some people who choose suicide given the circumstances, this is not so easily said of certain afflicted groups. On the contrary, the study tends to suggest that certain types of chemical imbalances give rise to suicidal behaviors, especially if the chemical imbalance goes untreated, and the suicide occurs before the diagnosis is made and treatment can be administered. This tends to lend scientific support to PH's position that certain affected individuals are not in as much control as others not similarly afflicted when it comes to "decisions" about suicide. A person who is suffering from this severe a chemical imbalance frequently does not seek that needed treatment to begin with for the same reasons (s)he "chooses" to commit suicide.
Further, bipolar disorder manifests in many subtle forms, and the right combination of chemical intervention can very vastly from one patient to the next. So even when a person does seek treatment, that treatment is not always successful. It can in fact lead to further, more extreme occurrences of cycling (or experiencing the chemical effects of bipolar disorder). Such circumstances can actually compound the patient's sense of desperation and futility, while the doctor scrambles to ascertain the most appropriate treatment.
Again, this is a very difficult, complex subject.
Peace to you all in your endeavors to struggle forward, and let us all do what we can for each other and for our friends around us in trouble.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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