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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted September 19, 2003 10:55 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 19 Sep 2003
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In an echo of what PrivateHudson said: A mentally ill person doesn't see things the same way a sane person does. Their choices are limited because their view of reality is limited and/or twisted by the disease.
For example, regarding the attitude towards family: At the time in my life when I was seriously contemplating suicide, I was convinced that my family would be better off without me. I thought I was a burden to them, more trouble than I was worth, and that killing myself would relieve them of a lot of nuisance. When they told me that they loved me, as they did often, I thought they were "just saying that to be nice; if I weren't around, they wouldn't have to bother" and the like. Of course, none of this was true, and my suicide would have caused my family a great deal of pain and grief. But because of the way depression clouded my mind, I didn't know/believe that they would be hurt. I thought they'd be helped. Reality and reason weren't factors; painfully low self-esteem and a hopeless outlook were. (Fortunately, my mom intervened and got me help before I actually tried anything.)
Now, obviously, I can't tell what anyone else's thought processes are, especially since mental illness can take so many different forms. However, I prefer to give a mentally ill person the benefit of the doubt as far as blame goes for something like suicide. Whatever the real consequences of their actions, they most likely believed that they were taking the best route possible.
EDIT: Okay, so this is basically a personal illustration and summary of what Peacemaker just said. That's what I get for taking half an hour to write a post. 
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted September 19, 2003 11:04 PM |
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LOL --
Likewise Khaelo!
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 20, 2003 03:36 AM |
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Quote:
You are talking about a logical, rationally thinking person, in a large majority of mentally ill people neither of these are the case. That is what makes it unthinking, not a choice.
I'm more than aware some do choose, I believe we've had this discussion before and I stated my views then, no need to go back over it. I'm merely stating that I have very real personal experience with people who have tried to take their life recently, and anyone who thinks most mentally ill people do it from choice either has no real knowledge or simply is making a sweeping statement.
You misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Basically The ladies here used my words but in long terms, arguing that your right & everybodys wrong is Pointless Hudson.
I know all about Mentally Ill.
I know almost every type of Medication most take & what they do.
I studied thier behavior for yrs I lived with them & I lost a few friends from SUicides & i know why it happened.
DOnt come over here telling me I have no knowledge.
I dont have in intellectual words to speak here so mayhaps I may have said it wrong like I usually do.
I lost one of my 3 best friends who was like my older brother on a suicide One day after his birthday3 yrs ago May 8th.
He was in Cortilaris Penetentary.
He had a leave to visit his Parents on his birthday & a day later late morning he layed himself right on the railroad tracks 7 the train didnt even stop it kept going.
Knowing thetrains speed & under the trains like razors so you can bet it was not a pretty site.
He used to tell me how he loved his family so much his sister & brother which were all adopted by his adopted mom & dad who loved him very much but showed dome tough love.
His Brother basically wanted nothing to do with him,He was Like an embarrassment to him no matter if it was at the house or especially in public.
His sister was the same.
He was extremely smart He knew alot.
I lost contact with him for a few yrs before they put him in Cortilarus when i moved accross the bay.
They used to test drugs on him to see if they worked & half of them had dif affects.
Was one of my worst days in my life it's shocking.
Other friends died with Siezure disorders etc also.
One of my best friends got epelepsy.
Was the first time i ever seen a siezure & it was probally his worst so i was freaking out like wtf going on.
He woke up but I can see in his dazed eyes he was not really awake.
He didnt know who I was & didnt talk much but he got up & started walking almost over the railing & barely caught him.
Before he woke up he had this scream & he woke up like a total fear it looked & that scream I never forgot it was scary.
twitching & foam coming out I tought he was dying so I rolled him on his stomach not knowing what to do.
that woke up like 10-15 min later & all.
After I brought him back he was breathing so heavily i didnt know what to think.
I was in a shelter so i didnt have a phone but called in a staff.
She tought it was all a hoax to stay up longer & we both got in trouble.
Ever since that i been seeing it in #'s.
One day he had so many I couldnt even count.
SOmetiems you got to think your parents & the lord that you dont have any set backs like those but do your best to do what you can to help.
I got carried away sorry Hudson & others.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 20, 2003 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
Basically The ladies here used my words but in long terms, arguing that your right & everybodys wrong is Pointless Hudson.
*sighs*
I wasn't arguing about who was right, I simply stated that arguing that the idea that everyone who commits suicide chooses to do so is wrong as in my experience many do not. I did NOT argue none choose, I did NOT argue that others have no experience whatsoever, but rather that they have no overall experience if they try to argue that everyone "chooses to commit suicide" as they clearly have not experienced all forms. I've personally not had anyone "choose" to kill themselves, but I know and accept that it happens.
There, I put it in bold, this time please try to read it so I don't have to repeat the same damn argument 15 times and have everyone tell me it's something else entirely....
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 20, 2003 09:18 PM |
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I been reading & I know exactly what you are saying.
You dont seem to know what I am really trying to say hear.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 20, 2003 09:21 PM |
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If you pointed it out clearly perhaps I would....
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted September 21, 2003 08:10 PM |
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Great posts, all of you. Very interesting thread too! Though some people have decided to not directly respond to this post and prolly I should have done the same, I feel like I have to because it's such a one sided view on the matter...
Quote:
People who suicide are the most selfish and self-centered people of all...
They think that their problems are the worst problems in the world...but they are in acuallity the same problems that alot of other people face.
All they think about is themselves...they don't love or care for anyone but themselves, if they did they wouldn't even consider putting their so called loved ones through the pain and anguish of a suicide.
They are too self centered to even ask for help...they don't think that anyone else can help them if they couldn't help themselves.
The children, spouces, parents, siblings, friends that they had are meaningless to them...they would rather face their problems themselves and take the cowards way out, than seek help from these people.
Suicide is a permanant solution to a temporary problem that creates permanant devastation to the ones left behind.
Let your friends help...they can't help if they don't know you have a problem...
(As you can probably tell, I have had a friend suicide and leave his wife a two young kids, I will never drink a toast to the bast@rd.)
I cannot speak for all people who have ever considered suicide, but I will speak from a personal experience now four years ago. Every person imo has a dark and destructive side, next to a positive and creative side. For some people this is directed outwards... they insult and flame others, get involved in fights or worse or have to lose these feelings in another way. For others this is directed inwards, I call it selfdestructiveness. I have no opinion about what is worse, I just know that I don't like people who openly direct their anger/agression to the outside world, but I guess people with a self-destructive side can be very hard for their family/friends/colleagues too.
As a 19 year old boy who had lived a very sheltered life so far, together with my ex I was suddenly confronted with loss in more ways than I knew was possible, and suffered the effects of the worst possible kinds of human behaviour. Surprisingly it took quite a long time before it destroyed me. I ran away, and immediately sank into a deep depression. Months of things I had not dealt with jumped to the surface and on top of that I feared the fact that I had made the wrong decision by running away about every minute of the day and night. I didn't sleep, couldn't eat and luckily my parents forced my to go seek help.
During the next half year, certainly in the beginning, I had very strong suicidal thoughts... I was convinced that I had made several very bad decisions, and that I had been extremely selfish by running away. Later I realized that given the circumstances I had actually acted quite good and have probably saved my ex's life. Back then though I believed that everyone was either mad at me or thought that I was a coward, or weak, and that actually no matter what I did or said things got worse. I thought I was a burden to everyone and that they would be better off without me...
So you see OT, this has not much to do with selfishness as at that time I thought that staying alive, and continuedly burden my environment with my presence was selfish. I did care about everyone else, very very much so... In fact the only person I didn't care about was me. Asking help when you're in a suicidal depression is not something you do. Simply because you think you'll be a nuissance to more people then, and people will even look down on you more if you do! You won't let anyone help, you don't want to bother them more than you already do. At the time when you're considering suicide you do not regard it as being a temporary problem, it is all there is... your entire existence.
I'm not saying suicide is a good thing of course, but it's not the easy way out OT. It's the end of a battle that has lasted a long time, usually way longer than a person's surroundings know. A lost battle, true, and perhaps someone who has killed him/herself is weak - too kind or soft for the hard world... Life isn't good and easy for everyone you know... I wouldn't wish some of crap I went through to my worst enemy (if I had one). I am here today, and know I'll never have a suicidal depression again, but I've seen the bottom of the pit and down there... chances to get out are not so good.
I can't say a lot about the people that are left behind when someone decides to step out of life, it must be a devastating experience indeed, moreso because they may feel guilty for not having seen it coming. I hope scientiests find ways to detect depression sooner so more suicides canbe prevented.
The mind is a powerful thing... and when you're very depressed it's like you're in a tunnel and the only option is to go forward. In a way I think the brain must work in a defective way while depressed, maybe you can indeed compare it with being mentally ill. I'm sorry to hear about your loss too and hope you don't find this post offending, I didn't mean it to be. Your friend has lost a battle with himself, the outcome is indeed permanent, but please don't hate him for it. Try to find comfort in being there for those who stay behind.
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted September 24, 2003 04:31 PM |
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Niddy~
Hope we can continue this, which is basically what you & I were chatting about on IM, a few days ago.
It helps me to talk about it, and I think I should consider some of the ways to broach this subject with my daughter, I'm thinking lately that it may be better if she knows the truth.
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Gaia Forums
Guardians Grove
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted September 25, 2003 02:54 AM |
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted October 08, 2003 08:06 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Ahh.... a topic I started such a long time ago. And it's so weird to elaborate on it now, almost two years after it was started.
Speaking of parents and their children. It is so sad that parents always do try to do the best for their children. Make them go to school, hang out with the proper kids only, forbid them to learn obscenities, respect parents and elderly.
It works for some. For some, it does not work.
As the second rule of the wizard says "the greatest intentions can do the greatest harm." This is how parents, in their best intentions to make their progeny be what they have always dreamt of being, harm the children.
Like what?
It's good to know how to play an intrument. The child has no talent of it whatsoever. To please the parents, he would spend hours and hours in hateful rehearsals and fail and fail to perform well (what I'm telling you is a true case). First, he never makes a virtuoso. Second, constant failure leads to low self-esteem, feeling of being unworthy, stupid, small and ... failed. While at that time you could become a successful lawyer because you like the discipline and have a conniving personality.
Failed.
And feeling of failure is the ultimate driving source for suicide.
And it is even worse when you're alone in your failure and SHAME of failure.
Yes, shame. SHame is a big factor, and fear too. If you feel failed... is it easy to go forward and talk to other people about it? Admitting. "I failed. I'm weak. I just .. failed." It's one thing to fail and know it. ANother - to go public with such a private pain.
Especially to the people who believe you have failed. That's a no-no. You'd rather keep your feelings to yourself. How was it in TO Risk?
To laugh is to risk appearing the fool
To weep is to risk appearing sentimental.
To reach out for another is to risk exposing our true self.
To place our ideas - our dreams - before the crowd is to risk loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To hope is to risk despair.
To try is to risk failure.
See line 3 and last line.
You try, you fail, you fear exposing your true self, the inner, most frail and vulnerable self.
If you go trust someone with your pain, you risk being laughed at and your pain, don't you think?
That's why a lot of people actually hide their true and undepictable need of help. If the family is insenstivie to the person's needs and actually is the source of the nuisance and suicidal thoughts, then how can they be sensitive or concerned to hear a cry so well disguised? Same thing with friends. How can a person be truly concerned for you even if they know you well if you engage your willpower to hide your pain from them?
You must not blame people for not helping you out when you bend all your effortsd to hide your need for help.
But it's also a matter of family spirit and friendship to show love and affection even if one is not about to commit suicide. Feeling of personal untrustworthiness is sooo much less when someone else loves you and it's shown to you in the right way.
Then again, to have someone else love you, you must love yourself.
Which is so rarely the case with suicidal people.
WHich makes me think... care less about what you need from people and pay attention to what they need. Otherwise, such BIG blunders can take place.... and the least the topic of this thread.
Mun got tired too with being so cerebral.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 09, 2003 12:27 AM |
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Has it been that long hehe.
2 yrs ago I remember when you first brought this in the tavern.
We were all into it & we both gave great advice on & offline well at least I did offline.
Nowadays everyone seems to critisize & put others down more then trying to help people understand.
Ever since Hudson came in all people got was criticism or out downs like he is thy holy & others bow before his education.
He makes this & other threads he joins no fun later all.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted October 09, 2003 06:50 AM |
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Yeah, it is unfortunate when a person comes and kills a thread just for the purprose of it, to kill a thread.
Unfortunately yet, you rarely have any weapons to fight that save for telling the person he was being rude and make you feel bad.
But it's also bad to blame it all on someone else.
And yes, Aculias, it's been 2 years. At this point, from my coming to HC, more than 2 years.
Two so different years and they feel as if I've lived in a dream and the first part of it (when I wrote this post and I indeed had a good reason to) in a nightmare. Now it's more like a dream....
And I'm so glad I no longer have suicidal dreams and have other, much less morbid stuff to entertain me. :-)
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 09, 2003 08:50 AM |
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Yea it was really somethang 2 yrs ago this thread was made not long before one my best friends committed suicide so it was somethang hehe.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted October 09, 2003 08:53 AM |
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*hugs ya*
Suicide is never an "old" topic or "corny" or "tacky".
Cause people do it all the time. And we lose family, friends and people we care for.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 09, 2003 10:49 AM |
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Quote:
Ever since Hudson came in all people got was criticism or out downs like he is thy holy & others bow before his education.
I stated my opinion and didn't accept the notion that all suicidal people choose to do so, if you don't like that tough frankly. Just because I refused to accept others opinions as the only truth doesn't mean I don't accept they are right also, and have stated such on more than one occaison.
Quote:
He makes this & other threads he joins no fun later all.
I don't make comments on subjects to amuse people, I state my opinion on something and if you don't like that, again it's tough on you. I don't like the fact that half the time I can't understand what the hell you mean but I don't whine too much about it either. If it seems like I get "holy" it's probably because I'm sick of repeating myself when others read something else entirely from what I said.
Again, it's no concern of mine if you dislike the comments I make, they are rare enough here now anyway, considering I've spent a lot of posts in the Iraq thread and similar ones though, your suggestion that it's "no fun at all" or Milenas that it kills threads simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny sorry.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted October 09, 2003 03:32 PM |
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Dear Mr Hudson,
I was remarking about people who threadkill and it was inspired by what Aculias said. I have not read your posts. I do not know and I do not judge you. I can, though, assure you, that I have seen so many thread killers, that for me this topic is as unpleasant as it is for you.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But not everyone is entitled to being liked. And I don't mean anyone in particular with this either.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 09, 2003 03:46 PM |
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Of course, I'm not trying to be liked, just stating what I see as the truth. If this happens to offend someone, then that is their business, not mine.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 09, 2003 10:48 PM |
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Well now. What's all this bickering here???
Gentlemen, stand down I say and go to your corners. Let the sprites squirt some water in your face, and your coaches rub your shoulders. Note the beautiful girl walking about the ring with a sign saying, "Round 6" and decide whether you really want to continue sparring over terms, and dare I say, a few rather mean comments!!!
*WINKS AT BOTH ACULIAS AND PH*
Seriously, there's lots of us out here who love you both and are sad to see that you've gotten all caught up in one another's horns like this. Really, guys.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 09, 2003 10:59 PM |
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*raises an eyebrow in PM's direction*
I'm not fighting with anyone, just stating my opinion, he's the one with the problem with it, I've got no problem with him other than having to repeat myself constantly....
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Makka
Tavern Dweller
Lord of Ruin
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posted October 13, 2003 05:09 AM |
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Quote:
Of course, I'm not trying to be liked, just stating what I see as the truth. If this happens to offend someone, then that is their business, not mine.
I Agree with this guy, Everyone is entitled to their own opinion are they not?
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So sayeth you!
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