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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: OMG You Guys Won't Believe This: Mother Owes For Illegal Downloads
Thread: OMG You Guys Won't Believe This: Mother Owes For Illegal Downloads This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2009 06:34 PM

Quote:
Am I talking to the walls?
So he's not allowed to sell it? Okay, but then you're still keeping an element of intellectual property.

Quote:
Better than forcing them against their nature, like what this does.
So it's better if lifesaving drugs are never invented?
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 06:40 PM

Quote:
So he's not allowed to sell it? Okay, but then you're still keeping an element of intellectual property.
"Keeping" it? What do you mean? What do you keep? 1s and 0s?

Precisely, I mean?

Ok, I can add +1 or -1 value to each frequency amplitude in the mp3 file, randomly of course. Then, the data and information will be different, albeit very small. But still, different. (in total it can be big difference, and no computer will ever say it's the same by objective analysis).

So I don't "keep" it anymore? So it's ok to copy it then? I can write a program for that in 5 minutes, if it mattered.
Please be specific and objective.

Quote:
So it's better if lifesaving drugs are never invented?
What is this I don't even...

If 90% of the computer users are "sharing bastardz" doesn't it ring a bell that it's human nature to be that way, and stopping them is going against their very nature? In short, what you accuse socialism of? Isn't it hypocritical?
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 21, 2009 06:47 PM

Quote:
So following your logic, it is completely ok to rob a gas station and steal tons of gas, because it is very expensive in serbia and people can't afford it, while the station owner becomes millionaire??

Very thougthfull post.....


Since when you can copy/multiply gas? Why do people keep coming with those unrelated examples?


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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2009 07:06 PM

Quote:
What do you keep?
Some element of copyrights/patents.

Quote:
What is this I don't even...
Say some company spends millions of dollars developing a life-saving drug. Then some other company/charity/NGO looks at the formula and decides to sell/give away the drug. The company that worked hard to develop the drug is put at a disadvantage. Next time, it just won't develop it in the first place.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
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with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 07:07 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 19:11, 21 Jun 2009.

Quote:
Since when you can copy/multiply gas? Why do people keep coming with those unrelated examples?
Am I getting the impression that it's because of people who think like that we don't have "free energy" and will never have? Actually they don't even want? Because if you can 'share' energy, or oil, and make it free, it's criminal!

And that's why humanity will never have free energy. That's why capitalism holds us backwards.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 07:09 PM

Quote:
Some element of copyrights/patents.
It's pointless.
Define precisely, give me CONCRETE data that I can quantify. I gave an example of modifying the data slightly so as to not make it identical to the original, and obviously that wouldn't allow me to copy it either right?

So what is it?

Quote:
Say some company spends millions of dollars developing a life-saving drug. Then some other company/charity/NGO looks at the formula and decides to sell/give away the drug. The company that worked hard to develop the drug is put at a disadvantage. Next time, it just won't develop it in the first place.
Shows how evolved mentally humans are.

If they don't want that, they should open their market to some other species that is corporate, not rational.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted June 21, 2009 07:18 PM

Ok, one more try.  File sharing sites do reduce the ammount of CD's sold.  Yes, there are those who can not afford it, and would not affect the sales one way or the other.  Millions and millions of people use these sites, however..and you can sit there with a straight face and say that nobody who could afford it has ever used one of these sites?  Wow, I wan't to live in that fantasy land.

Now, some argue.."But it only affects the rich!" I guess these same people think magic pixies make the CD's just appear in stores and such.  Sorry here is reality 101.  First the raw material for a CD and it's case is gotten.  Then that CD (and it's case) is pressed in a factory.  A factory that employees, guess what, regular everyday people.  Then that CD and case is sent to a music studio.  A studio manned by, hey guess what, regular people.  Oh and the shipping to this factory is done by drivers, who are again..suprise, every day people.

Now the singer comes in, records the master, and that master is recorded unto the others of those CDs.  Which is shipped again..and again by regular people.  Now they sell less of these because of those sites, which means they buy less CD's.  So not counting the raw material..lets see how that effects the rest of the chain.

Less CD's produced means that the factory closes lines.  They don't need to produce as many, so they don't need as many people.  So they lay off people, regular people because not as many are needed to produce the reduced number of CD's.

Now the studio is not as effected.  Nor is the transportation.  But it does affect normal everyday people who are not 'suits'..who do not make these millions you think they do.  Oh but they don't count do they?

Hey I am too poor to afford a mansion.  Maybe I should be able to move into any unused mansion I can find?
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Clay_Man
Clay_Man


Known Hero
TOH gamer
posted June 21, 2009 07:37 PM

I think both Doomforge and Binabik made very good points about the issue.

The only thing I think, which obvious here but nobody (maybe Elvin) has pointed out, that it's a BLATANT HYPOCRISY to pick out 1 random fella from the millions who doing it and punish her. Even though, just as Binabik pointed out, they are right, she has stolen stuff, she must be punished accordingly, that's the law. OTOH it makes absolutely ZERO sense to punish ONLY her, following Doom's (imho great) reasoning.

It's just this hypocrisy that bugs me, really. But then again, whos said that this world is fair?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 21, 2009 07:42 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:45, 21 Jun 2009.

Quote:
Ok, one more try.  File sharing sites do reduce the ammount of CD's sold.  Yes, there are those who can not afford it, and would not affect the sales one way or the other.  Millions and millions of people use these sites, however..and you can sit there with a straight face and say that nobody who could afford it has ever used one of these sites?  Wow, I wan't to live in that fantasy land.


You get it wrong. It's not always that they CANT afford it. It's that they have a ton of other things they want, more important.If you were left with, idk, place some random small value of money, after each month, and could buy a CD with music with it (which would consume like 1/2 of your money) or save some for, idk, cinema, beer with friends, whatever - what would you choose?

Some CD that you may as well NOT LIKE? (can't check what's inside before you buy, obviously...)

Well I wouldn't pick the CD and I guess a lot of people also would not. If I didn't like the music, it would be a horrible waste of time & money, something I can't afford with my limited amount of cash.

So what do I do, even though - let's say - I CAN afford those? I don't buy them, of course.

There, now you have those who can't afford it, and those who can, but are afraid of buying something they won't like with their limited funds. Does the number of people virtually "excused" seem more reasonable now?

Quote:
Now, some argue.."But it only affects the rich!" I guess these same people think magic pixies make the CD's just appear in stores and such.  Sorry here is reality 101.  First the raw material for a CD and it's case is gotten.  Then that CD (and it's case) is pressed in a factory.  A factory that employees, guess what, regular everyday people.  Then that CD and case is sent to a music studio.  A studio manned by, hey guess what, regular people.  Oh and the shipping to this factory is done by drivers, who are again..suprise, every day people.

Now the singer comes in, records the master, and that master is recorded unto the others of those CDs.  Which is shipped again..and again by regular people.  Now they sell less of these because of those sites, which means they buy less CD's.  So not counting the raw material..lets see how that effects the rest of the chain.


I give up after reading the highlighted part. How many times do I have to argue that it doesn't matter whether I download there or not buy it? The outcome is the same.

Take a million of guys like me and STILL NO DIFFERENCE.

Quote:
Less CD's produced means that the factory closes lines.  They don't need to produce as many, so they don't need as many people.  So they lay off people, regular people because not as many are needed to produce the reduced number of CD's.

Now the studio is not as effected.  Nor is the transportation.  But it does affect normal everyday people who are not 'suits'..who do not make these millions you think they do.  Oh but they don't count do they?


And charging people for piracy will make me run to the store and buy those cds. And all people around too.

You accuse me of living in a simplified magicland, but you stubbornly keep telling the same old story over and over

Tell me then, do you sincerely believe that no piracy would actually mean legions of people buying CDs?

I obviously think not.




and another question. How am I supposed to learn about different kinds of music as a kid, when there is only pop in the radio, assuming YT is also illegal and thus banned?

You want such a kid to buy random CDs or pester their friends about borrowing? Oh wait, borrowing breaks the license too... whoopsie.. that would mean death of lots of bands. Nobody would know about them

seriously, if it wasn't for free music in the internet, I'd listen to the radio till today, never knowing 99% bands I know now.

Quote:
Hey I am too poor to afford a mansion.  Maybe I should be able to move into any unused mansion I can find?


If you can copy it, go ahead. @_o

seriously, ANY material example you guys are trying to give is fail because you can't copy anything save from data/books, thus, it makes those examples simply bad/unrelated.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 07:57 PM

Quote:
Now, some argue.."But it only affects the rich!" I guess these same people think magic pixies make the CD's just appear in stores and such.
I bet you use a free service called Google every single day, or almost.

Yeah, Google is operated by magic pixies

Quote:
Sorry here is reality 101.  First the raw material for a CD and it's case is gotten.  Then that CD (and it's case) is pressed in a factory.  A factory that employees, guess what, regular everyday people.  Then that CD and case is sent to a music studio.  A studio manned by, hey guess what, regular people.  Oh and the shipping to this factory is done by drivers, who are again..suprise, every day people.
What has the CD got to do with anything? If you care for the people who make CDs, I say it's like caring for the oil people when we have free energy.

That is, would you come to a dude who invents free energy and say he is a criminal because he puts the oil dudes out of jobs? Is he a criminal? I would treat him as a hero. Isn't free energy one of Utopia dreams?

Or free food, for that matter, also evil. Think of the farmers who would lose their jobs! Yeah, must be evil. Anyone who invents such device should be put to jail immediately

Quote:
Hey I am too poor to afford a mansion.  Maybe I should be able to move into any unused mansion I can find?
I don't know what you use, but give me that device that can copy mansions, I will be pleased to have it.

I don't know about YOU, but I would treat the dude who invents it as a hero, not as a criminal, and as a step forward for us. Like, we have computers. Rational decision would be to use it, and to use it for altruistic purposes, means good and rational decision (e.g: sharing with others, to help others who would like to listen to the music).

That's criminal it seems. Another reason I am disappointed and sick of humanity (those in power, because everyday people like to share, but the others are sickos who unfortunately are in power...).






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orEhUEcxHeY
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted June 21, 2009 08:01 PM

Quote:
Quote:
So following your logic, it is completely ok to rob a gas station and steal tons of gas, because it is very expensive in serbia and people can't afford it, while the station owner becomes millionaire??

Very thougthfull post.....


Since when you can copy/multiply gas? Why do people keep coming with those unrelated examples?


Maybe you just don't get it right? It is not about "Am I able to copy the stolen product?"

Only because the internet is an easier way to get certain stuff doesn't mean everyhting is ok you are doing there.

What do you think is the meaning of the word "copyright"?

It is ok to copy certain products FOR YOU OWN USAGE. But as soon as you make a business out of it, your action is illegal.

And you know pretty well, the law doesn't make a difference between those who can afford something, and others who can not. Since when is someone allowed to do illegal action ONLY because he is poor??
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2009 08:02 PM

Death:
You misunderstood me. What I mean is that despite you being against "intellectual property", you're against being able to sell something that was invented by somebody else (unless you have their permission). That's an element of the intellectual property system.

Quote:
If they don't want that, they should open their market to some other species that is corporate, not rational.
Wut?
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted June 21, 2009 08:06 PM

Quote:
Quote:
....You get paid by people who sell T-shirts & stuff to your fans. You get paid by advertising firms who want you to appear in their commercials. Your fans never pay you, but you still make a fortune. It's actually a much better business model, if you look at the history of intellectual products.


That is exactly why Google is a 21st century business






I found me a cool Bob Marley t-shirt design and downloaded the picture. With the fancy new printers people can print their own t-shirts. So I'm gonna upload this design to a t-shirt sharing site for everyone to download and print their very own Bob Marley t-shirts.

I'm sure somebody out there will recognize it and say "hey, that's my design and you stole it". So sorry, it's just intelectual property so it's not stealing it's sharing.

Your 21st century business model just went out of business.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
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posted June 21, 2009 08:17 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 20:26, 21 Jun 2009.

Quote:
You misunderstood me. What I mean is that despite you being against "intellectual property", you're against being able to sell something that was invented by somebody else (unless you have their permission). That's an element of the intellectual property system.
No, it's not. Saying that I would allow them to download it for free and sell it is like saying "People should be allowed to ignore 'intellectual property' when downloading, but then put their intellectual property when selling" which would make me a hypocrite and I'm well aware of that, which is why selling something pirated is NOT an option. That is, unless you sell something else (e.g: the blank CD itself which has nothing to do with it) and not the pirated thing.

Quote:
Quote:
If they don't want that, they should open their market to some other species that is corporate, not rational.
Wut?
You have a marvel of humanity called computer right? That solves the problem and makes stuff affordable to everyone, makes burning CDs affordable and not just in huge pressing factories. Also makes uploading to other computers easy. Should be self-explanatory that it's a huge step forward, right?

So don't be surprised if rational species will use it. If you don't want them to use it, then don't open your market to them. Open it to corporate species (maybe aliens?) because most humans are rational and altruistic (like to share).

Quote:
Your 21st century business model just went out of business.
I just googled on Linux and it still worked. Yep, definitely magic pixies.


Quote:
Maybe you just don't get it right? It is not about "Am I able to copy the stolen product?"

Only because the internet is an easier way to get certain stuff doesn't mean everyhting is ok you are doing there.
Yes there is a big difference. By downloading you do not affect others' property in a negative way.

Steal a cookie, and you deprive the owner of it.
"Download" a cookie, and the owner is just as happy as before and have his cookie.

See the vid above I posted.
Please show me something similar in "stealing" and I'll be convinced it is stealing.

Quote:
It is ok to copy certain products FOR YOU OWN USAGE. But as soon as you make a business out of it, your action is illegal.
A business out of it?
So if I invent a device that can copy food and give to starving children in Africa... I'm a criminal for making business out of others' food?

(suffice to say I don't make any money off it)

And the law is not an argument. It would be like using the Bible as an argument. Not to mention, it's different in different countries.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted June 21, 2009 08:29 PM

Quote:
File sharing sites do reduce the ammount of CD's sold.


So does the radio, people listening to others music, TV, youtube, etc....
Movie business went like: "NOOOOOOOOOOO! We are going bankrupt because of TV!", and music business went like "NOoOOOOOOOOO! Radio is driving us into bankrupty!", and they are pretty much still alive are they? What did they do? They adapted to the marked and the technology.
Now in this age, they have still not adapted to the technology of the age. Internet that is.

Here is a good example: >here
Free is basicaly being able to stream music from there, daypass = no ads while browsing. I do not use spotify as i am not that interisted in music, but premium should allow downloads.
This is something on todays marked, however it sucks on something:
*It believes Internet has borders.
Spotify is something of this generation, but i still belive people want solid stuff like CD and tapes for their music collection. Or at the least got them randomly stuffed into a gigantic shelf
At the moment filesharing acts as radio, previewing. If you ignore the few "real" pirates, that is, which is not part of the "causal"-crowd that is the marked.

A note is that download atleast 2 gig of vids each week, i am a vivid Anime fan. Those 3 gigs are the newest episodes of all series i am watching. If you say: "Wait this they get in store or on TV", i say "snow you!", for a simple reasons:
*I do not want to be weeks or months behind in the series i am watching
*Stores tend to overprice series as hell
*There is a major chance it never will get licensed
*I get it of a torrent network in full HD quality
*often better translated than the commercial ones(tons of small fotnotes so they keep their purpose)
*Can be dragged down as fast as some fan group has subbed it, from 2-9 hours after its aired usually
*Uncencored, no scenes clipped or plotlines remove
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 21, 2009 08:39 PM

Quote:
Since when you can copy/multiply gas? Why do people keep coming with those unrelated examples?


Maybe you just don't get it right? It is not about "Am I able to copy the stolen product?"

Only because the internet is an easier way to get certain stuff doesn't mean everyhting is ok you are doing there.

What do you think is the meaning of the word "copyright"?

It is ok to copy certain products FOR YOU OWN USAGE. But as soon as you make a business out of it, your action is illegal.


There we go again.

Ok, another explanation:

You guys try to make it sound bad, but you fail to give a single reason why it's bad.

The arguments about "it reduces the companies' profits", I think I addressed that already. I don't want to repeat this for a millionth time, I think that argument is BS, I won't repeat that over and over though. I gave enough arguments already.

When we talk about crime, it's the accuser who must prove the guilt, not the accused the lack of it. Right now guys, you are speaking about rights, but give no logic (except the weak logic I addressed 1000 times) and no reasons WHY it's bad.

I gave examples why my behavior doesn't hurt anyone's pocket, and I don't give a flying **** about some distributor's hurt ego.

Right now you say: It's bad because you make companies poor, and when I give counter-arguments you can't really counter, you start the "it's bad because it's bad" thing. But you never say WHY it's bad, and now angelito stated "because copyright states it is". Lol. Great explanation.

Quote:
And you know pretty well, the law doesn't make a difference between those who can afford something, and others who can not. Since when is someone allowed to do illegal action ONLY because he is poor??


Angelito, try to proof-read what I write. I know I write chaotically, but can't help it.

I never meant it's only because... I never even meant it as a justification. I meant that the poor won't buy it anyway, so it fact it doesn't matter whether they copy it or not.

It's not stealing because you don't make it vanish out of anybody's pocket. You only "deny profit" that you would deny anyway because of being poor.

That's what the "poor" argument was about. Not that poor means you can steal lol. Funny anybody interpreted it like that.

If it doesn't hurt their pocket, what does it hurt? Let's move away from the abstract masses and focus on me, the potential criminal.

What does my behavior cause?

money loss? Don't make me repeat that again: I'm NOT going to buy anything. I either download it or not use it. Thus, no profit deny takes place.

I really don't know how to describe it in easier way.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 08:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtFv89M04Oc
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted June 21, 2009 09:24 PM
Edited by Binabik at 21:25, 21 Jun 2009.

Quote:
Your 21st century business model just went out of business.
I just googled on Linux and it still worked. Yep, definitely magic pixies.


I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. I made the assumption that it would be understood I was just giving an example. I didn't realize I had to provide an example for every possible scenario. Just to make things more clear, here's another example.





I really hope I don't have to give thousands of examples of intellectual property. All you did was shift the business model from one thing to another. You can shift it anywhere you want, but that doesn't change the underlying principle.

A business has some sort of product and it doesn't matter what that product is. You can't walk into a store and steal a television then inform them that it's ok because their business model should be advertising, and the TVs should be free. It's not your choice what their business model should or should not be. Regardless of how you think they should make their profit you will still get arrested for stealing the TV.

The lady in this article apparantly thought the same thing, that it was OK to steal things. And she suffered the consequences.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 21, 2009 09:29 PM

Quote:
You can't walk into a store and steal a television then inform them that it's ok because their business model should be advertising, and the TVs should be free.
Oh this is getting epicly ridiculous. I'm not gonna bother anymore with this.

Let me clear it out for the last time.

If you had some MEANS (maybe a device) to COPY that TV without ANY EXPENSES on his part (that is, the actual copy doesn't need him to pay off money or time), then how can you even COMPARE that to STEALING the TV which will DEPRIVE him or the store of it?

FOR THE LAST TIME, I CHALLENGE YOU (anti-sharing ppl) TO SHOW ME HOW THIS AND STEALING ARE THE SAME THING since obviously if both use the same word they must be.

Quote:
The lady in this article apparantly thought the same thing, that it was OK to steal things.
No, she thought it was ok to share things. And I agree with her.
At least get it right.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2009 09:58 PM

Death:
Quote:
Saying that I would allow them to download it for free and sell it is like saying "People should be allowed to ignore 'intellectual property' when downloading, but then put their intellectual property when selling"
I'm not saying that they'd be putting their intellectual property on in when selling. They'd just be selling it.

Quote:
Should be self-explanatory that it's a huge step forward, right?
In many ways, it is. But when it discourages people from being creative, then it has a negative effect.

Doomforge:
But many people do choose between downloading and buying.

General topic:
Though I view piracy as generally bad, I don't think it's something that can really be stopped, and businesses will have to adapt.
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