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| Thread: Teaching religon: Heritage of hostility? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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bixie
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posted July 06, 2009 12:21 PM |
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Listen, Elodin, All I feel that we should do is to teach respect for other religions. if you don't want to teach the religion for fear that your children will like it more than yours, thats fine. But common respect for other religions and creeds will make the world, in general, a better place.
This has really come from something someone important said about 50 years ago.
Quote:
I like Christ, but I don't like Christians. It's strange that Christians don't behave more like Christ
-Mahatama Ghandi
Well, I suppose the reason why Christians don't behave like Christ is purely for self-preservational reasons, but think about it. I believe that Jesus of nazareth was not the son of god, but an ordinary man. An ordinary man, who didn't need divine lineage to teach people about love and respect for each other, to dissuade prejudice, and do all the good that he did. If we teach people THAT rather than that he was the son of god etc etc, then the world will be a better place.
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Elodin
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posted July 06, 2009 12:26 PM |
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@Baklava
Yes, I read the bannanns and Catholic sentences.  I always read everything anyone writes in topics I participate in.
I agree that no matter what a child is taught in the end he will make his own decision.
@Mystical
I don't disagree with teaching teaching children not to discriminate against people of other religions. Jesus said to love everyone.
What I disagree with is being required to teach a child that Christianity may or may not be true. That Allah might be the true God. Or Snoopy might be the way of salvation. 
I taught my children to respect all people. I can respect you and still disagree with your beliefs.
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Elodin
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posted July 06, 2009 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:35, 06 Jul 2009.
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@bixie
I try to be like Jesus.
By the way, Jesus said he is the Son of God, God in flesh, and that he is the only way of salvation. Jesus was pretty "dogmatic" when he taught.
That's a cute saying from Ghandi and all but how exactly do you claim Christians are not acting like Christ?
And no, I don't not teach my children other religions might be true out of fear. I don't teach my children that other religions might be true because I am a Christian. If I thought other religions might be true I wouldn't be a Christian.
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Mytical
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posted July 06, 2009 12:36 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 12:39, 06 Jul 2009.
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That is the key .. respect. But wait you mean Snoppy isn't the only means of salvation? What about Charlie Brown?  . I think people really need to be more tolerant and respectful of others views. Sometimes I fail at that, but dang it I do try.
Edit : He is referring to the 'Mouth Christians' (which is what I call them). They say the right words, but do not actually follow the faith. There are a lot of people who go to church on Sunday, and give mouth service to the religion, and even sometimes let people think they are 'good Christians' but do things like beat their wives, or kill, or whatever. I know it has nothing to do with the actual religion, but since they claim to be Christians.....
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JollyJoker
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posted July 06, 2009 12:39 PM |
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@ Elodin
For the things from the past thread, for simplicity's sake I won't argue around them, but simply accept things the way you presented them, with the exception that you miss the decisive detail: the important point is not the teaching or telling of a child about religious things, like there is a hell and people will go to it under certain circumstances; the important thing is the fact that this is sold to the child as an ultimate truth instead of a debatable belief that comes with a couple of rivalling ones.
The fact that you belief it to BE an ultimate truth is of no relevance. Other people belief in other ultimate truths and there is no reason why yours should be the right one from the point of view of a third party.
See the difference? I explained that already in my last post to you.
On to the salvation example. I asked this with a certain something in mind. If I interpret the Bible quotes right, then the boy in my example is lost in eternal damnation.
I'm quite sure that most neutral people will find that extremely unfair - it's not the boy's fault that his family and country did raise him due to their honest belief without really giving him a chance to make a responsible decision that a god could nail him for. So when you advocate the right of everyone to teach their children in any way they want, you accept as well that children will go to hell because their parents believed the wrong thing.
Wouldn't it be infinitely better if everyone had a fair opportunity to pick one's own fate then?
Lastly, a multi-religion society cannot care about what ONE god says. So whether something would be right or not from that perspective is irrelevant, if the society is ruled in a worldly way.
EDIT: Reading the last posts I'd like to add that, no, I do not think that no matter what is taught, in the end children will always believe what they want. I'm not sure why this is thought at all. If certain things are taught in a specific way to young children, they will become self-evident. They will burn themselves into the mind. This may not always have the same result, mind you. Some snap on things or rebel against them, hating it and so on, but the effect is there.
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angelito
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posted July 06, 2009 12:50 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 12:51, 06 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
By the way, they constantly kept telling me that Santa exists and I never believed in him, for example, so I don't think Angelito made a valid point here. Of course children choose what to believe. Even if they believe everything their parents tell them by the age of, say, 7 or 8, they start questioning it and reaching their own conclusions quite soon.
If you do not have any other sources, how will you be able to question it? There haven't been internet all the time, and there are still many places all over the world, where you (kids in general) have to listen to the stories the "oldest" tells you all day long.
Or as comparison, just ask those who were living in EAST germany before 1989. Ask them what they heard about WEST germany and the capitalistic countries in general. And of course they were sure everything was true, except they had other sources (relatives, forbidden WEST television, etc...).
And if you hear things for years, it will be very hard to convince you with the opposit later on....
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del_diablo
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posted July 06, 2009 12:54 PM |
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Elodin: stop blabbering nonsense and say 1 line what your meaning, and why JJ is wrong. No bible quoting either, and 1 line.
Mytical: Childhood baptism should be illegal, simply because of what the meaning of it. It sends a child into a sect/religion, and that is its purpose. Lets say you must be mature before you actually can be a part of a religion, which would valid the bloody point of the word "faith".
The "better" cults all got in common that you must be of the age before you can become a part of them, which makes them better than others. Sure you can teach your children about it, and they can become unofficial believers, but forcing them into a religion would be dangerous for society.
To point at it another way, make sure that children actually got faith. Let them have faith, and let them believe what they want. Make sure that they know that all those people from the cults all say: "I KNOW THE TRUTH!", when they all are contradicting each other.
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Mytical
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posted July 06, 2009 12:56 PM |
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Well del_diablo, Elodin should be able to explain his view just as much as the rest of us. We are not limited to 1 line, so he should not be either. Scripture to him is just a valid a source as if we would put a link up to explain our cause.
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angelito
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posted July 06, 2009 01:00 PM |
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Quote:
I (obviously) agree with the gist of your post, angelito, but could you clarify your first sentence?
Which one do you mean? That I don't think it is quite accurate? Or the next one...?
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 06, 2009 01:04 PM |
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Quote:
@bixie
I try to be like Jesus.
By the way, Jesus said he is the Son of God, God in flesh, and that he is the only way of salvation. Jesus was pretty "dogmatic" when he taught.
That's a cute saying from Ghandi and all but how exactly do you claim Christians are not acting like Christ?
And no, I don't not teach my children other religions might be true out of fear. I don't teach my children that other religions might be true because I am a Christian. If I thought other religions might be true I wouldn't be a Christian.
Cute?! CUTE!!!!!!
(ok, calm down, it's not his fault he has just insulted one of the greatest human beings of all time)
Well christians are not behaving like christ because... well they aren't nailing themselves up on crosses are they?
but in all seriousness, Christians are behaving like christ due to the fact, as I have said many a times before, they focus on his Lineage rather than his philosophy, which is one part that I think truly makes a Christian a follower of Christ, and they listen to Christs teaches to not judge, to love others as a brother/sister (which makes sex particularly odd ), to not desicrate temples, and so on. The examples of Wolves in Christian clothing are Crusaders, Televangelists, Bible bashers, Lynch mobs, and excorists.
I'm not asking you to teach them an entire religion in a lunch sitting, but teaching them respect for other people's religion would allow them to grow up to be more respectful of other people.
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Doomforge
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posted July 06, 2009 02:03 PM |
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To answer your questions JJ:
1: yes, I do believe school has no authority, and thus it's irrevelant what it teaches (again, in my country - important). I don't know why it happens, obviously no parent tells their kids to defy their teachers and ignore them, on the contrary, even the patological families tried to force the children to "listen" to teachers.
But kids didn't care. Our attitude towards teachers came naturally, and it didn't depend on how we were raised that much.
So, I agree that it would be a good thing for kids to respect the teachers, and teachers to give kids unbiased information, but for some reason, it doesn't work, and I sincerely have no clue how to make it work.
How to improve the authority of teachers?
In the past (in the times of "Polish communism"), teachers weren't respected, they were feared and hated, because of their right to beat kids (and so they did).
Now, it's the opposite: teenage kids beat teachers (kids having fun in Polish school ).
Ok, that was an extreme example, but still, teachers just .. don't have authority and in fact, they teach nothing but knowledge, not the "life wisdom" they also should. I don't know how to change it. Any ideas? I'm curious how would you like to change things.
2: Parents should pass any custom they want to their kids, as long as they do it in an unbiased way. Religion too, because religion is tied with tradition, and nobody ever complains about parents teaching kids tradition of past generations.
And I agree with Baklava. In some moment of your life, you start doubting things that parents taught you (as a teenager). Life verifies their teachings - also, if they taught you religion "the wrong way" (aka forced to do it, kept scaring kids with weird visions of hell and such), the teen is most likely to dump religion and become an atheist.
You can't force anything into anyone, unless the person is weak-willed and susceptible to propaganda. But hey, it's safer if parents indoctrinate children about Christ than to have sect of the Moon to indoctrinate them. Seriously.
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Minion
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posted July 06, 2009 02:11 PM |
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School and teachers do have authority. When you enter school at the age of 6-7 you do look up to the teachers. When the same teacher who tells you that 1+1=2 also tells you that Jesus walked on water and was born from a virgin, it is not right. School should teach universal truths and not religious beliefs. I am talking about the first 4 to 6 years in school at least. As a cultural phenomenon it can be taught later, when the child understands more.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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del_diablo
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posted July 06, 2009 02:16 PM |
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Mytical: Should i have said "make it short" instead? I am curious on the exact reason for writing several pages, when it could have been 3 lines of proper text. The other problem is that its very hard to read when it is that fragmented.
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Doomforge
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posted July 06, 2009 02:26 PM |
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Minion: 2 years later nobody cares what the teacher said anyway.
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Minion
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posted July 06, 2009 02:43 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:44, 06 Jul 2009.
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A rather poor excuse to defend WHY it should be taught in the first place And furthermore, I disagree with that sentence anyways.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Doomforge
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posted July 06, 2009 02:46 PM |
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Your call.
PS. you can't disagree about something that doesn't happen in your country. Because you don't know anything about it, really. And I always underline that I speak about what I experienced in my country only 
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Minion
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posted July 06, 2009 02:55 PM |
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Quote:
PS. you can't disagree about something that doesn't happen in your country
No matter the country, I think children aged +6 something are very susceptible to education given them by authoritative figures. So yes I can disagree, just watch me
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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JollyJoker
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posted July 06, 2009 03:13 PM |
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Doom and Minion, please do not start a quote war - I think you both made your respective points about the effectivity of schooling and teachers rather clear.
Edit: I tried to change the title to better reflect the thread, but all I can change is the subtitle my first post begins with. If changing a thread name is possible at all, a moderator could maybe change it to
Teaching Religion: Heritage of Hostility?
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baklava
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posted July 06, 2009 03:24 PM |
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The title change is radical indeed
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TheDeath
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posted July 06, 2009 03:35 PM |
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Quote:
School should teach universal truths and not religious beliefs.
No such thing as an universal truth. Mathematics isn't a "truth" either, it's just logic language. But other than math, are you saying we should scrap all other elementary subjects?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
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