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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: what relievence does religion have now?
Thread: what relievence does religion have now? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted July 18, 2009 07:26 PM

Quote:
Oh I'm quite sure God places human life above animal life. 1 human life is of far more worth than the sum total of all animals that will ever live.
You're speaking BS. God loved animals more than men, remember Noah's arc?

Also just because maybe 1 human life > 1 animal life, it doesn't mean that 1 human life > x animal life (where 'x' can be a given value). What kind of flawed logic do you use?

Oh wait you didn't use logic at all...

Quote:
I go away for five minutes and look what happens to the thread. it ends up going so far off topic, Get back to it, now, before I get the rolling pin out!
I'm pretty sure that dude TheDeath has something to do with it...
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted July 18, 2009 10:01 PM

Quote:
You're speaking BS. God loved animals more than men, remember Noah's arc?



You seem to be clueless. The animals were for man. God gave the animals to Noah to eat and for sacrifices.

Gen 9:1  And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2  And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Quote:
Gen 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.


Quote:
Also just because maybe 1 human life > 1 animal life, it doesn't mean that 1 human life > x animal life (where 'x' can be a given value). What kind of flawed logic do you use?


It is not flawed logic. We just have a fundamental difference in the value of human life.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted July 18, 2009 10:02 PM

Quote:
Gen 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
You know this includes humans. Right? Right?
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted July 18, 2009 10:09 PM
Edited by Elodin at 22:10, 18 Jul 2009.

Quote:
Quote:
Gen 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
You know this includes humans. Right? Right?


No, because I have a brain.

The context of the passage makes it clear that it is talking about animals. In the same passage it said murderers are to die by the hand of man.

Quote:
Gen 9:5  And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


Oh, and verse 2 makes it clear that verse 3 is refering to animals.

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baklava
baklava


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posted July 19, 2009 12:55 PM
Edited by baklava at 13:04, 19 Jul 2009.

There are many things in the Old Testament that just can't fit today's views. People then simply took things differently. According to the morality of the Old Testament, Lot, that man from Sodom, was the only one saved because he was virtuous enough to offer his daughters for the mob to rape them in exchange for not raping two strangers that entered his house. Would you act like that, Elodin? Cause if not, according to the Old Testament, you'd be doomed in Sodom.

I have every cause to call you a religious fanatic because you are valuing life based solely on someone's interpretations of the morality of a religious book written 5000 years ago.

In my opinion, animals were given "into our hands" to, among other things, be their caretakers and be responsible towards them. Not to do with them as we please and be the overlords of the planet, just like God isn't our overlord.

Like Death said, if I would choose between saving one baby and one goat, I would certainly save the baby. But that's not what I was talking about, I was talking about you disregarding the fact that killing all animals off would cause an ecological catastrophe that would wipe the planet clean of life - just to prove some flawed point of yours.

Also, if a goat would choose between saving a baby goat or a human, I'm pretty sure it'd save the baby goat. Not because they're superior, but because it's their species. So it's entirely natural that we'd save the human; but because it's our specie, not because we're God's gifts to this planet and nothing else is.

On another note, why are you vegetarian?
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Mytical
Mytical


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posted July 19, 2009 01:26 PM

I still don't get why religion automatically equates to ONLY Christianity.  *shrugs*.  Of course I guess that I am more spiritual then religious...

People seem to fear what they don't understand.  Then they either want to define it, dismiss it, or destroy it.  I guess it is human nature.  What comes after we die is a MYSTERY.  So people want it to be some glorious paradise, or they want it simply not to be at all.  Because they fear death.  I don't know what comes after we die, if anything.  I also don't really want to die, but death holds no fear for me .  Hakuna Matata

While I am still kicking, I will always seek.  I may never find the answers, but it is not the destination but the journey that is important.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted July 19, 2009 01:38 PM

Quote:
I still don't get why religion automatically equates to ONLY Christianity.
I don't want to sound racist or discriminate against Geny, anti, tnt and GL, but except for thos eguys, that's the religion we were taught. it's also the most widespread religion. And since we all write about what we know, we speak of christianity when we argue religion most of the time.
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baklava
baklava


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posted July 19, 2009 01:38 PM
Edited by baklava at 13:39, 19 Jul 2009.

It equates to Christianity because most HC users aren't too familiar with any other religion. I don't know if we have a single Muslim on the boards, and all the Jews here are pretty uninterested with the OSM.

Can't say I blame them.

EDIT
Dagoth beat me to it
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted July 19, 2009 04:21 PM

Quote:
I have every cause to call you a religious fanatic because you are valuing life based solely on someone's interpretations of the morality of a religious book written 5000 years ago.


So all Christians are fanatics? To be a Christian you kind of have to believe the Bible.

Actually, the New Testament was written 2,000 years ago. The Old Testament 2500-3400 years ago.

No, I'm not basing my morality on someon's interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that the animals were given to man to eat and for other purposes. I quoted the verses that prove that.

Quote:
In my opinion, animals were given "into our hands" to, among other things, be their caretakers and be responsible towards them. Not to do with them as we please and be the overlords of the planet, just like God isn't our overlord.


But that is not what the Bible says. I agree that man should not mistreat animals and that man is a caretaker of the earth but God clearly told man to sacraifce animals to him as part of the Old Covenant. And he gave animals to man to eat and for other purposes.

And you previously said goats have a right to live and unborn babies do not.

Quote:
A goat has a much higher level of consciousness than a fetus anyway. And a goat also has the right to live.


Quote:
I'm pretty sure it'd save the baby goat. Not because they're superior, but because it's their species.


A baby is superior to an animal.

Quote:
On another note, why are you vegetarian?


I lived on a farm growing up. When I was a young child I became attatched to a pig we were fattening up for slaughter. When I saw it alaughtered I never wanted to eat an animal again.

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


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posted July 19, 2009 04:24 PM

Quote:
A baby is superior to an animal.


Not really.

Quite a bunch of animals are waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy superior to a baby.
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baklava
baklava


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posted July 19, 2009 06:18 PM

Quote:
So all Christians are fanatics? To be a Christian you kind of have to believe the Bible.

Believe, yes. But there is a difference between believing and following blindly.
I do not think that if a person thinks with his own head, that means he isn't Christian. The Old Testament was written in the context of hundreds of years before Christ; and back then, people thought, acted and behaved differently. Society has advanced since then. Much like we cannot believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago as stated in the Bible, or stone people, we need to revise some other things written in the Old Testament too.

Accordingly, I don't believe that animals are here solely for us to exploit them. After all, we were once like them.

Where did I say that goats have the right to live and babies don't? Just re-read what you quoted and see for yourself whether your conclusion makes sense.

And as for your "a baby is superior to an animal" argument - that goes for us. But from a goat's point of view, of course a baby goat is more worth saving than a human. They're the same species.
I'm just saying how subjective what you're talking about is.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted July 19, 2009 07:02 PM

Quote:
Believe, yes. But there is a difference between believing and following blindly.


How exactly can you "believe" the Bible and yet not follow it. And beofre you start talking about Old Covenant Law, Christians are under the New Covenant.

Quote:
I do not think that if a person thinks with his own head, that means he isn't Christian.


A Christian should certainly "think with hiw own head." But if your own head tells you differently than the Bible, you own head is wrong.

Quote:
The Old Testament was written in the context of hundreds of years before Christ; and back then, people thought, acted and behaved differently.


The Bible is the Word of God, not something that some men dreamed up. I'm not sure how you can be a Christian without believing that the Bible is the Word of God.

Quote:
Society has advanced since then. Much like we cannot believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago as stated in the Bible, or stone people, we need to revise some other things written in the Old Testament too.


Show me the verse that says the Earth is 6000 years old please.

Oh, if you know anything about the Bible you would know stoning was a civil penalty for sin that the Jews in Israel used in the nation of Israel. Stoning is not and never has been part of the New Covenant.

Quote:
Accordingly, I don't believe that animals are here solely for us to exploit them. After all, we were once like them.


I believe God, not you. And I never said animals exist solely to exploit. I specificly said people should not abuse animals but animals were given to man to eat and for other purposes. Man has dominion over the animals.

Quote:
Where did I say that goats have the right to live and babies don't? Just re-read what you quoted and see for yourself whether your conclusion makes sense.


On page 1 you said:

Quote:
Sacrificing an animal isn't killing it for "necessary uses", as much as sacrificing a baby isn't. You can't call yourself "pro-life" and then allow people to kill life because they believe their deities can't be appeased otherwise. A goat has a much higher level of consciousness than a fetus anyway. And a goat also has the right to live.


You say you are a Christian you oppose animal sacrifices. Jews were commanded to do animal sacrifices.

And you do argue that a it is ok to kill an unborn baby but that a goat has a right to live.

Quote:
And as for your "a baby is superior to an animal" argument - that goes for us. But from a goat's point of view, of course a baby goat is more worth saving than a human. They're the same species.
I'm just saying how subjective what you're talking about is


Of course I'm talking from a human point of view. I'm human.

But from God's point of view (as presented in the Bible) a human is more valuable than an animal.

You seem to have some strange beliefs for a person who says he is Christian. Who do you say Jesus is? How do you say a person becomes a Christtian? What do you base your beliefs on? Is the Bible the Word of God or is it the word of man?

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angelito
angelito


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posted July 19, 2009 07:22 PM

Quote:
The Bible is the Word of God, not something that some men dreamed up. I'm not sure how you can be a Christian without believing that the Bible is the Word of God.
Because it is nothing else but a collection of letters / stories written by many?

Quote:
And you do argue that a it is ok to kill an unborn baby but that a goat has a right to live.
Vegetarians it eggs, but no chicken....Or do you call an egg a "chicken fetus"?

Get real...
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted July 19, 2009 07:28 PM

This one made my day:

Genesis 17/23-24

"And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought  with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. "

Abraham circumcises himself and all of the males in his household. Since he supposedly had 318 slaves back in Genesis 14:14, poor old Abe must have been pretty busy with his knife. But it was worth it. Penises are supremely important to God. And he can't stand foreskins.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted July 19, 2009 10:56 PM

Quote:
Because it is nothing else but a collection of letters / stories written by many?


You are entitled to your beliefs. But I asked the question of one who says he is a Christian.

Quote:
Vegetarians it eggs, but no chicken....Or do you call an egg a "chicken fetus"?

Get real...


You get real. An unfertilized egg is not an animal life.

@Salamandre

You don't believe in circumcision. So what? It was an Old Covenant thing and is not required under the New Covenant.

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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posted July 19, 2009 11:02 PM

and ALL chicken eggs that reach the store are unfertilised?
I see...
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xerdux
xerdux


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posted July 19, 2009 11:42 PM

Sometimes you see a small black dot when you buy an egg. Its a dead chicken fetus. Fetus sounds like fatass

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Mytical
Mytical


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posted July 20, 2009 07:29 AM

I want to ask everybody to see my latest post in the "I gave up believing in god thread' and actually give it some thought.  Answer in your own time, but hopefully with a lot of thought on the matter.
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baklava
baklava


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posted July 20, 2009 01:02 PM

About the age of the Earth according to the Bible:

Nowhere in the Bible is the age of the Earth mentioned. Bishop Ussher, in a remarkably scholarly attempt well before the advent of modern day geological thinking, estimated the age of the Earth by counting up all the generations in the Old testament, plus a few adjustments here and there. He came up with a date for Genesis at just over 6000 years BC (that's 8000 years old).

You can be a Christian that understands that the Bible has, above all, undergone 2 millenniums of social and political editing, that those in power constantly revised it and kicked out things they didn't need (various apocrypha, Black Sea scrolls etc.), and that perhaps some important things about Jesus' teachings that didn't fit the people on the top were simply extinguished.

You can be a Christian that follows Christ, that follows what is good and what he feels is pure, and yet not put all your faith in idolizing a book or a city or an earthly institution. I think Jesus was exactly against that.

Please note, in my previous posts I solely mentioned the Old Testament. However, I have serious troubles connecting it to the New one; I for one am not quite sure if Jesus followed the Old Testament so closely either. His teachings were radically different from those found there and thus, the New Testament was forged. I have read and liked the New Testament - I have even based many motives in my life according to it. And I definitely think there is something to it.

But Christ taught not to follow Rabbis and similar which he viewed as insincere earthly authority; and that is exactly what the Catholic and some other Christian churches have become.
He warned about false prophets (Mat 7:15 to 7:23, and some other places). And the Church has, ironically, always taught everyone to look for them outside the Church.

Thus, I can respect the tradition and follow the theoretical teachings of my Church (it happens to be Eastern Orthodox), but I always need to think and question with my own head, lest a false prophet disguises himself as someone in authority again.

Quote:
"A Christian should certainly "think with hiw own head." But if your own head tells you differently than the Bible, you own head is wrong."

See what I'm talking about.

Now, that's a view that turned away so many people from not only Christianity but all the other religions in the world.

As for the other part of your post:

I don't think I'm less of a Christian just because I hate it when people see God as a deity that commands people to sacrifice living beings to it. God has created that life and it makes no sense for me that he needs us to destroy it in order for him to be appeased. Those are pagan rituals from thousands of years ago that were hopefully surpassed by mankind even in the middle ages.

I also don't believe that God is such a commanding deity as itself. Jews saw him that way, as hundreds of pagan peoples saw their gods in that time. That needs to be regarded in the context of that age; the Old Testament was, above all, a rulebook - a set of laws for the nation of Israel. They functioned that way and incorporated laws in religion for those laws to be more powerful. Do you see God commanding anyone anything in our time? Certainly not in the way it was told in the Old Testament.

I have never said it is alright to kill a human baby, that's just how you're presenting it to yourself in order to out-moral me. I was talking about the early first trimester. Here's an excerpt from Wiki:

"In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development begins about eight weeks after fertilization, when the major structures and organ systems have formed."

So what I was talking about isn't even a fetus.

Also, you were talking about forcing women give birth to something forced into them. That - I can never agree with; and like I said, if there's a moral fault, it's solely the rapist's. But let's leave that for the other thread. Here, I just explained you why I don't consider early abortions anti-Christian.

As presented in the Bible, written by humans, God looks human, God talks like a human and God values humans over everything else. If alien species have their own Bibles, I can imagine they don't mention humans as superior.
But in my eyes, a goat saving a baby goat instead of a human isn't wrong. If God granted us higher intelligence, it is my opinion that he did so in order for us to be caretakers of his work, not overlords as some people wrote 3000 years ago and told us God said that. We need to feed, yes, as do all the other living things. But we do not need to cut down rainforests, pollute and butcher nature as we're constantly doing.

I believe that God has set up a path we need to follow. But we can't reach that path until we ourselves figure it out. Without God or anyone else constantly pushing us in the right way and thinking instead of us, because that way we'll never learn. And how we treat other life is one of the cornerstones in that path.

Yes, I do have strange beliefs perhaps. They often differ from the views of the majority, or from the views in some religious books. This is because the majority finds it easier to follow paths someone already laid down for them; and whether they lead in the right direction just isn't their problem. They tend not to think about it.

And no, I don't believe the Bible is false. Far from it. There has even, perhaps, been some divine inspiration to it. There are many truths in it, and many good attitudes - primarily in the New Testament. But I am an agnostic Christian - meaning I tend to believe in a higher power, and I adore Jesus as a person and his teachings, but I am aware I can know very little of it.

The Bible is the word of men seeking God; edited by men seeking dominance over other men. A Christian... to me that term varies greatly; especially seeing how many Christian denominations there are, disagreeing with each other over every tiny bit. But to me, it's not about which set of rules you're going to follow; Christ was the first to accuse those who consider themselves good persons just because they're following some rules. Some say Christ is the son of God, some say all of us are sons of God, I will be the first to admit that I don't know, and that it doesn't really matter. Christ didn't want anyone to worship him, Christ wanted people to be better to each other and enlighten themselves about some important things in life - and that's what I think Christianity is about. That's why I love him.

You believe your God. I believe mine. They're the same old God, it's the interpretation that varies.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted July 20, 2009 01:22 PM

I was reading this old bible that my grandmother had (that her grandmother was given as a gift from the church when she was married) so it was real old and worn-like, and leather bound.



In the back (just after Revelations, just before another section about contents or summat) there were all these sketches of old artifacts. Ancient Egyptian carvings, Roman Emperors and temples etc. (why? i dno)


What intrigued me was the fact that they were dated down the bottom.

"3600 B.C."


Wait, isn't the Earth only 4000 years old?
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