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| Thread: Modern Germans and WW2 | |
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Doomforge
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posted July 17, 2009 10:03 AM |
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Modern Germans and WW2
WW2 seems to be taboo for many Germans. That's why I created the thread. I don't know whether we have many German guys here (tbh I recall only JJ..), still, it would be interesting to hear his opinion.
A few questions to all Germans here:
1. Were your parents/grandparents (and their family, friends, etc.) supporting Hitler and Nazis?
2. Were they aware of death camps and war crimes?
3. Were they supporting war?
4. What did they think of Jews in those years?
5. Did they feel superior to other people of other nations?
6. What did your parents/grandparents tell you about the war?
7. Did they feel guilty, or proud of that time?
8. Do you know any former SS/Gestapo member? What are his opinions on the war and holocaust?
9. Were you ever taught about holocaust in school?
10. Were you taught about Hitler in school? How was he portrayed, as a great, yet insane leader? Mass murderer? Something to never mention in public?
11. Finally, what are your private thoughts about the war?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 17, 2009 11:20 AM |
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WW2 seems to be taboo for many Germans. That's why I created the thread. I don't know whether we have many German guys here (tbh I recall only JJ..), still, it would be interesting to hear his opinion.
A few questions to all Germans here:
1. Were your parents/grandparents (and their family, friends, etc.) supporting Hitler and Nazis?
2. Were they aware of death camps and war crimes?
3. Were they supporting war?
4. What did they think of Jews in those years?
5. Did they feel superior to other people of other nations?
6. What did your parents/grandparents tell you about the war?
7. Did they feel guilty, or proud of that time?
8. Do you know any former SS/Gestapo member? What are his opinions on the war and holocaust?
9. Were you ever taught about holocaust in school?
10. Were you taught about Hitler in school? How was he portrayed, as a great, yet insane leader? Mass murderer? Something to never mention in public?
11. Finally, what are your private thoughts about the war?
What I know about my family is, that one of my Great-Grandmas had Jewish "blood" in herself, but either not enough or she got lucky. My Grandma from my Ma's side did work for a Jewish woman as something like an Aupair or Companion (rich old ladies had something like that in older times), but that stopped then - she didn't went into detail, when telling about it.
My Grandpa from my mother's side was strictly against NS and had a lot of disadvantages because of that which led to an ecomic decline his wife wasn't too happy about. She was rather unpolitical, is my impression, but she liked hearing Hitler talk on the radio. I can remember her impersonating him quite good with diction and all, when I was a child, to give an impression.
I'd say she was something like the average German - fascinated about all that ENERGY, then, as if having a dream, that slowly slipped into a nighmare and then to a rude awakening.
I've never hear a bad word about Jews in my family. (I have, in my time, from Frenchmen, though).
People of my family either were not in the war or never came back.
My mother, born in 1935, feels fearful and angry about the time. Never had a decent childhood, running to shelters, when the alarm came in the middle of the night, and so on, which was often since we're coming from the Ruhr area, the industrial centre of Germany.
No, I never knew any Gestapo or SS member, if I did, I wouldn't have known, because people who were wouldn't talk about it. 
We were taught extensively in school, about the Holocaust, about Fascism, about Hitler, in all the gory detail and with all the politically correct outrage.
My private thoughts about the war are, that the negative energy that enabled that regime to start things with so much success would later be the reason of the downfall. Without the strong anti-Jewish tendencies with the Save-the-World-from-the-root-of-evil attitude things would never have come so far, but then, killing and exiling them robbed them a big part of their scientific power; later resources were fueled into that part that would have needed more dearly for the war.
I've played wargames as a hobby, and the 2. WW is fascinating from a gaming point of view. While I'm German I don't feel I'm guilty or involved - it happend in another time and another place, as far as I'm concerned, and gaming-wise I both enjoyed playing the German or the British side. Never liked the Russian side much - I hate playing with masses of low-quality stuff - except if they are Necromancers, that is.
Which is it, actually. The 2. WW is no isolated event, and what happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945 (and to the rest of the world) can only be explained when taking into consideration what happened within the 100 years before that. The war as a war is as insane as Napoleon's, but of course it wasn't planned on that scale, neither from the German, nor from the Japanese side, not to mention the Italian side and that's where the trouble starts. But if you sow the wind you might reap the storm or so, and that was that, then.
All in all I have my own view of it: They had a vision, and they tried to make it come true. Of course, for many people it was no pleasant vision, but it was a vision nonetheless. It wasn't just land-grabbing or something. It wasn't normal murders who'd kill for money - low motives -, but more like terrorists - motivated by ideals, however misguided they were, which was, what made them so dangerous.
Some may not agree with that, but I don't really care. The difference between genious and insanity sometimes is as slight as that between good and evil, and if that comes together, what is supposed to be good genious is revealed as evil insanity.
A bad case of Frankenstein on an infinitely more massive level, if you what I want to say.
I'm away now for 2 days, so I'm not going to be able to discuss anything of this immediately.
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angelito
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posted July 17, 2009 01:45 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:05, 17 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
WW2 seems to be taboo for many Germans. That's why I created the thread. I don't know whether we have many German guys here (tbh I recall only JJ..), still, it would be interesting to hear his opinion.
Me is german too 
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1. Were your parents/grandparents (and their family, friends, etc.) supporting Hitler and Nazis?
I don't know, I have never met my grandparents. My parents were born after WW2 has ended.
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2. Were they aware of death camps and war crimes?
Not a single german was aware of concentration camps (except those who worked there or lived in direct neighbourhood). How should the germans be aware of war crimes? there was no daily reporting on tv, just the "famous" weekly cinema series "Wochenschau". And due to the matter of fact, this series was undeer control of Goebbles (minister of propaganda), you can imagine yourself what was shown there. Every german was 100% sure the polish staretd the war in 1939, so germany didn't have a different choice than strike back.
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3. Were they supporting war?
Of course, due to wrong propaganda
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4. What did they think of Jews in those years?
Most germans did believe everything they got told by the government, because there were no reason to NOT believe. The germans had hugh unemployment rate, many had close to no money, but most of the jews had quite a good life. Not because they were gangsters, but mostly because they were pretty clever in business in money issues. But the government said different of course.
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5. Did they feel superior to other people of other nations?
I don't think the older ones did. But for sure the majority of the youth thought like that, because they were drilled from the very beginning (Hitler Youth!). As a kid, you believe everyhting your teacher or trainer tells ya....you had no other opinion for comparison.
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6. What did your parents/grandparents tell you about the war?
Nothing.
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7. Did they feel guilty, or proud of that time?
You can believe me, 99% of all germans to feel pretty ashamed of what happened that time! But not guilty! I am not guilty for what my grandparents or my neighbour did.
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8. Do you know any former SS/Gestapo member? What are his opinions on the war and holocaust?
Don't know any.
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9. Were you ever taught about holocaust in school?
Of course. Very shocking moments during my teenager time. I couldn't believe somehting like that was possible.
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10. Were you taught about Hitler in school? How was he portrayed, as a great, yet insane leader? Mass murderer? Something to never mention in public?
Hitler was never portrayed as great leader. At least not in my school. He knew how to manipulate the masses, yes. But he wasn't that great in war tactics. He made so many faults, which have been the reason for the final loss. And insane, yes...that's how was called most of the time. A leader who lost contact to the ground pretty fast.
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11. Finally, what are your private thoughts about the war?
I was glad this war was ended by the allies before Hitler's ideas came true. I feel ashamed of what was done in/by "my country", but I don't feel guilty in any way. that's why I fell very offended if someone concludes "germans = nazis". Currently there are more nazis in USA than in Germany.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
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posted July 17, 2009 02:55 PM |
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Thanks for the responses, JJ and Angelito. I thought you're Italian, Angelito, for some reason 
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Corribus
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posted July 17, 2009 05:14 PM |
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That was a nice post, JJ. I enjoyed reading it. (Yours, too, Angelito).
I'm sorry I don't have much else to add.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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blizzardboy
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posted July 17, 2009 10:08 PM |
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I sometimes forget that Germany has only been a united country again since 1990. Which side did you guys live on when you were younger, and what was it like?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 19, 2009 09:48 AM |
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I forgot something here. Point #2:
Were Germans aware of death camps, war crimes and so on?
I answer this differently than angelito did. Officially nothing was known, of course. The real atrocities didn't begin until well in the war. There were camps before that, but that were not camps with the aim to kill pepple, but just special prisons. Prisons with bad conditions, where people might die or end up shot or something quite easily, but still just prisons. War changed things, of course. Even the comparably small-scale wars nowadays turn up atrocities regularly, even on the supposedly good sides. War puts things into chaos, and the rules change. Survival, death, torture, all that is suddenly everywhere, and noone asks questions when suddenly trains roll into a newly conquered, still chaotic area.
While German propaganda was a really amazing thing I could write a book about, since I've studied that one, death camps naturally wasn't part of that - they were a secret. So the normal population didn't KNOW, of course.
BUT, there were rumours. Lots of rumours, actually. Different rumours, certainly, and not all of them true. The only problem was the enormity of it. It was a bit like saying, that the brass would eat little children for dinner, well done and crispy. While from the outside it may seem that the Germans would have a lot of reasons to be wary of their leadership, propaganda made sure that even if you disbelieved half of what was said - which was a matter of course for most - you'd still fall for the most basic und fundamental lies. Moreover there were not many who really knew something. Death camps were run with a core of SS troups, the most disciplined and loyal troops you could wish for, but not that many; they employed prisoners for most of the work...
Secondly, the "Gestapo" or Secret State Police had the habit to cash people in that spread rumours of a dangerous kind or even spoke badly about the brass in too loud tones. Propaganda made sure, that a lot of people thought, such people were paid enemy agents who'd work behind the lines to sabotage German moral, so squealing was seen as an act of fatherlandish loyalty.
The bottom line here is that it was simply healthier to keep quiet and try not to think about those rumours. AS it wsa things were messy enough without that already, so you might say, while a lot of signs were there, people often choose to not read them. A bit like seeing a cover or blanket with serpentine movements or wiggling in some dark corner-roo, deep down in a cellar and deciding to just close the door of that room and leave it be. Like when you watch a horror movie - the characters ALWAYS go and take a look, mostly with desastrous consequences, while the spectators ALL know that it would a LOT wiser to leave the cellar not only closed, but nail it shut as well. Which is what Germany did then.
For living in a divided country, I was born and raised in the Western part. I'm not the nationalist type - I think that national states are artificial and should disappear now. The way I see it, I would like a Federal Republicn of Europe as a next step, with national countries disappearing and smaller provinces being the next olitical unit. The reason is, that most national states have no logical reason to be one. Take Belgium, for example (and I'm sure DG will tell you something about it). The national state of Belgium makes no sense, two provinces Flandern and Wallonia (or how would they be called, DG?) would make a lot more sense under the umbrella of the US of E.
So while I personally welcomed the end of the cold war and later on the EU, whether we got united with the GDR or not I didn't care as long as the borders were opened and people were free to pas them. For all I cared they could have kept two states just opening the borders.
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