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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The official HC religion thread
Thread: The official HC religion thread This thread is 61 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 50 ... 57 58 59 60 61 · «PREV / NEXT»
Totoro
Totoro


Famous Hero
in User
posted October 24, 2009 08:21 PM

Religion is something that can ease when there's nothing else left to rely on. That can't be a bad thing.

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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 24, 2009 11:33 PM

Religion is good for people as long as they do not use it as a weapon against others. It's clearly beneficial in the long run. Most religions are a form of doctrine that one follows to maintain a purity of life, in which most cases it keeps one healthy physically or mentally in many cases. (Most disapprove of the same negative behaviours.)

Evangelists are bad overall, whether Atheistic, Christian, Muslim or Windows/Mac Evangelists They tend to present things in a radical way that causes people to act in extreme, disruptive discourse to whatever they disagree with, usually resulting in harassment, threats or even violence. Everybody has a right to say what they want, but they also have a responsibility to try to clarify their views to avoid confusing people that agree with them somewhat into doing something stupid. We all are intended to give each other our due respect afterall =D

The Communist regimes of the world were primarily athiestic officially, true. And they have done many horrible things. But that's more to do with their own radical doctrines that they transformed into their own "convert or die" type of religion. Fortunately most of those beliefs have died out or graduated slowly to something else. (North Korea and China being some of the slowest to change). In China, the Religion was Maoism (and still is in large parts). Mao became like a god and is untouchable. To speak ill of him is to be arrested and tortured (possibly killed) even today. In Cambodia the Khmer Rouge worshipped agrarianism, worshipped the farmer as god, overlooking the no longer washed masses of the cities and punishing them (with death) for the smallest slight (usually any remote sign of intelligence or for being marginally worse at farming than a typical novice). Those weren't true atheism though. True Atheism is holding nothing to be sacred and thus at the same time, all to be equal. There are a lot of pretenders. (I'm not one of them, I'm not even atheist.) But I do try my best to learn and understand about the world around me. I know more about living under a despotic communistic regime than most people would here. =p
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted October 25, 2009 10:50 PM
Edited by Elodin at 22:52, 25 Oct 2009.

Quote:
Evangelists are bad overall, whether Atheistic, Christian, Muslim or Windows/Mac Evangelists  They tend to present things in a radical way that causes people to act in extreme, disruptive discourse to whatever they disagree with, usually resulting in harassment, threats or even violence.


An evangelical is simply one who believes in sharing the gospel with others. Evangelism does not cause "people to act in extreme, disruptive discourse to whatever they disagree with, usually resulting in harassment, threats or even violence

Jesus said to preach the gospel and so all Christians are supposed to be evangelical to an extent. But they should not continue to share the gospel with one who says they don't want to hear it.

I've know a vary large number of evangelical Christians in my lifetime and none of them act in the manner you describe.

I would have to disagree with you that the atheist tyrants/states who murdered so many people were not true atheists. Oficially atheist nations hold that there is no objective right and  wrong, the same as all atheists have to hold.

In the absence of objective morality, something is only right or wrong because the state says so. That effectively makes the state god. That is why such states don't allow other religions or else severly oppress them and try to control what they preach.

Nothing being right or wrong one can easily justify kililng the unborn, the old, the sick, the handicapped, political dissidents, anyone the state decides should die for any reason.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 25, 2009 11:03 PM

Quote:
the same as all atheists have to hold
I'm an atheist, and I don't hold that. So don't attribute that belief to all atheists, please.
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shyranis
shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2009 12:45 AM

Quote:
An evangelical is simply one who believes in sharing the gospel with others. Evangelism does not cause "people to act in extreme, disruptive discourse to whatever they disagree with, usually resulting in harassment, threats or even violence


So those Evangelical atheists you were talking about previously aren't so bad then I suppose. I wasn't being clear enough myself, I was speaking more of a small minority of rabble rousers that indeed, do exist.

Quote:
I've know a vary large number of evangelical Christians in my lifetime and none of them act in the manner you describe.


I've known a very large number of... anything in my lifetime and few of them act as I had described it. Only an odd bad apple or two. I apologize, my statement was too broad perhaps. I meant a small amount of nutbar fringe people that are in every group. As I've mentioned in a lot of my posts. It's the type of person an American pen pal of mine once described. Like the Fire and Brimstone preacher that visited her school and told all the girls they were snows and going to hell, even though most of them were chaste and dedicated Christians. That kind of nutbar. The ones that I swear, exist to make everybody else look bad.

Quote:
I would have to disagree with you that the atheist tyrants/states who murdered so many people were not true atheists. Oficially atheist nations hold that there is no objective right and  wrong, the same as all atheists have to hold.

In the absence of objective morality, something is only right or wrong because the state says so. That effectively makes the state god. That is why such states don't allow other religions or else severly oppress them and try to control what they preach.


A true atheist tries to follow their conscience, they're even harder to control than when a state pretends to be religious to win over its populace. That's why they never last. Even places that had long stretches of Communism and only official state branded religions collapse, people want their freedom to choose and not be forced into converting to anything. Even China, the strongest surviving "Communist" regime is now facing internal problems, even with the majority Han people it would control by pitting them against the minorities as a distraction. I'm sure you agree, we can let their God given human nature sort out their business =)

Quote:
Nothing being right or wrong one can easily justify kililng the unborn, the old, the sick, the handicapped, political dissidents, anyone the state decides should die for any reason.


As Mvass said, that's a rough generalization. That's like saying all Muslims are Terrorists, all Jewish people want is money and all Christians want is everybody else to convert or die. It's a stereotype, propagated by an uneducated bunch that got into power in countries that were in political turmoil that doesn't fit our modern, Western way of life. I mean, c'mon. It's not like the Beetles want to kill everybody that disagree with them politically. Just like not every American Christian thinks that the Chickens came home to roost, or that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated, or opposed to desegregation and sanctions against Apartheid South Africa. That would be fallacy. Just because a few nutbars sieze power somewhere, or have a soapbox to spout a radical doctrine, why should we think that is how everybody else that identifies themselves the same way thinks? People are all unique, and people with a strong religious upbringing are shown to have the same statistical weaknesses as those without nationwide. Same levels of divorce, approx the same levels of lewd conduct (purchased for in private at least), same levels of debt and of everything else in between positive and negative. We all have the same critical weakness of being human.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted October 26, 2009 01:28 AM

Quote:
Quote:
the same as all atheists have to hold
I'm an atheist, and I don't hold that. So don't attribute that belief to all atheists, please.


Where does absolute right and wrong come from?

Quote:
I wasn't being clear enough myself, I was speaking more of a small minority of rabble rousers that indeed, do exist.


Untrue. No Christian believes in threats and violence in spreading the gospel.

And please don't say Phelps or anyone like him because the Bible says they are not Christians. I'll quote the verses if necessary.

Quote:
Like the Fire and Brimstone preacher that visited her school and told all the girls they were snows and going to hell, even though most of them were chaste and dedicated Christians. That kind of nutbar. The ones that I swear, exist to make everybody else look bad.


I wasn't there obviously but I think your friend probably misunderstood what the preacher said. Christianity teaches we must all repent of our sins or go to hell.

I've never heard a preacher come in and start calling children names and just saying "you are going to hell."

Quote:
A true atheist tries to follow their conscience, they're even harder to control than when a state pretends to be religious to win over its populace.


Where do you get the definition of a "true atheist" from? Atheism does not entail necessarily following one's conscience. Atheism entails a disbelief in God.

You could say a moral atheist will try to follow his conscience but an immoral atheist like Stalin would not.

Quote:
That's why they never last. Even places that had long stretches of Communism and only official state branded religions collapse, people want their freedom to choose and not be forced into converting to anything.


The USSR crumbled because of the cold war. And yes, every person wants to live free. Well, most people do.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing being right or wrong one can easily justify kililng the unborn, the old, the sick, the handicapped, political dissidents, anyone the state decides should die for any reason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's like saying all Muslims are Terrorists, all Jewish people want is money and all Christians want is everybody else to convert or die.


No it is not. Show me a single New Testament verse where it is said people must convert to Christianity or be slain by Christians. It is not there. Jesus told us to love, do good to,  and pray for even our enemies. Again, I will quote the verse if need be.

It is the Qu'ran that says convert or die (or pay "protection money" and live as virtual slaves.)

If there is no God there is no right or wrong and no intrinsic value to human life.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2009 01:39 AM

Quote:
Where does absolute right and wrong come from?
The societal aggregate of people's desires and preferences.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted October 26, 2009 01:43 AM

That's not absolute. That's still relative to "society".
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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2009 04:12 AM

Quote:
Untrue. No Christian believes in threats and violence in spreading the gospel.

And please don't say Phelps or anyone like him because the Bible says they are not Christians. I'll quote the verses if necessary.


Spare them, I never said they were real Christians, I said they were fringe nutjobs. Pretenders who make real followers look bad.

Quote:
Quote:
Like the Fire and Brimstone preacher that visited her school and told all the girls they were snows and going to hell, even though most of them were chaste and dedicated Christians. That kind of nutbar. The ones that I swear, exist to make everybody else look bad.


I wasn't there obviously but I think your friend probably misunderstood what the preacher said. Christianity teaches we must all repent of our sins or go to hell.

I've never heard a preacher come in and start calling children names and just saying "you are going to hell."


Or he was a fringe nutjob like (as you mentioned) Phelps. Somebody piggybacking on the word "Christian" to lure innocent people away from what their faith really is about.

Quote:
Where do you get the definition of a "true atheist" from? Atheism does not entail necessarily following one's conscience. Atheism entails a disbelief in God.


A true Atheist does not believe in a God of any sort, be it spiritual, physical, governmental or Jimbob next door asking you to bow down to him. The ones I know have real problems with undue authority asking for things they have not proven themselves to deserve. I typically see the attitude of flunk this, flunk that. But in the end they still believe in a certain human dignity that all civilized people do. We've evolved to know better than animals do. Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, they all had cults of personality, they all had fixations on themselves being god. They were no longer Atheists as they believed themselves to be divine at that point. Fringe nutjobs, as mentioned earlier, who aren't even really what they say they are.

Quote:
You could say a moral atheist will try to follow his conscience but an immoral atheist like Stalin would not.


Classic Fringe Nutjob that makes the legitimate ones look bad. Stalin was a pretend Christian too. He confessed every week to the priest just down the street from the Kremlin. Not that it would do him any good.

Quote:
No it is not. Show me a single New Testament verse where it is said people must convert to Christianity or be slain by Christians. It is not there. Jesus told us to love, do good to,  and pray for even our enemies. Again, I will quote the verse if need be.


My dear, dear Ellie... again I'm not talking about real Christians. I'm talking about pretenders. People that make others look bad by pretending their actions are endorsed by scripture and holy writ. The ones that would exorcise people of different faiths to death because they could not suffer a witch to live. The ones that pray curses daily for their political enemies to die instead of wishing them well in their prayers as Jesus had taught. It's those people that are the cancer that make Christians look bad, because even a lot of Christians can't tell they're not really Christian. They use silver tongues to hide among the flock.

Quote:
It is the Qu'ran that says convert or die (or pay "protection money" and live as virtual slaves.)


That's what the radicals believe, but Islam is currently in its dark ages. It's what, 500-700 years younger than Christianity? The less enlightened leaders among them need to work out their barbarism. It's not like all Muslims preach that hateful doctrine, many condemn it as being anti-muslim. The false Muslims that practice Convert or Die in the Middle East are the same as the false Christians that do the same right now in Africa. Fringe wackos that don't deserve the privilage of hiding their crimes behind the banner of an organized religion.

Quote:
If there is no God there is no right or wrong and no intrinsic value to human life.


That's not true. People have always valued the lives of their friends and family (except mentally ill people, who can lack that functionality). It doesn't take much to realize that if somebody matters to you, somebody else matters to another person and we are all worth something. Most people are raised to be considerate of others, and that's where they get their intrinsic value and morals of right and wrong. They are taught much as a person would be taught them regardless of a religious education or not.

If somebody can't act in a way that is moral, if somebody really does take pleasure in or perhaps, just shrug off killing another human. There is something seriously broken in them that no religion can fix. It's not like if God was proven to somehow not exist you'd suddenly turn into a ravenous beast now is it? Of course not, you'd use the morals and lessons accumulated in your life's journey. (I'm by far not saying God doesn't exist. Just saying that God isn't the only reason people act in a fair manner).
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2009 07:45 AM

In general and in practise, is there any difference between communism and monotheistic religion, Christianity especially? I don't really think so.
Both paint a paradise picture as the aim, and both develop structures of rulership, of domination, of a small class of people who are the "keepers of truth", the official interpreterts and determiners of the party line, both have abused their position massively in the course of their reign, so that a handful of people would have paradise on Earth already.
In theory, Christian religion - the new testament - may sound good. In theory communism sounds good as well. If you accept certain assumptions, that is.
IN PRACTISE, however, the actual and factual organizations, once established, first and foremost had the purpose to establish itself even firmer.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the main problem here is that the religious types always argue IN THEORY for their religion. They always go back to Jesus and the bible, they always say that people who act against their words are no Christians and so on.
However, when they talk about communism they always argue IN PRACTISE. However, you could just as well say, that those in power for example in the USSR were no communists because they didn't follow the words of Marx, Engels and Lenin or the Communist Manifedst.
Christianity had a firm grip over Europe for, let's say 700 years until the Schism tore them (Communism didn't need more than 30 years for that schism). But look at that Europe. Was it a place of peace, of prosperity, of teaching the words of Jesus?
What more can you want? 700 years and what we got was illiterate people, so the Church could retain their monopoly of reading and writing; superstition; war; the inquisition; indoctrination of the worst kind; injustice; male chauvinism; plague; famine; and a glorious ruling caste of bishops and cardinals and popes and even priests.
Communism could only prevail in the USSR because there STILL was the unholy alliance of the orthodox priests with the landowners - Russia, at the beginning of the 20th century was still an absoloutely ruled country where the nobility and the clerus had nearly absolute rights.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

So, compare theory with theory, please, or practise with practise.

IN PRACTISE, we have corrupt politicians and corrupt priests - there is no difference whatsoever between the governmental structure of any POLITICAL entity or that of a church, and I actually don't see anay quality difference between priests and politicians either.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted October 26, 2009 10:26 PM

Quote:
In general and in practise, is there any difference between communism and monotheistic religion, Christianity especially? I don't really think so.


Well of course communism is just militant atheism ruling over a nation.

Yes, there are numberous differnces.
1) Communism is an atheistic form of government imposed on people who live in a paritcular country.

Christianity is a religion. Christianity is not imposd on anyone. To become a Christian you have to voluntarily and sincerely repent of your sins and obey the gospel of Christ.

2) Communism places no value on the lives of citizens, except for what the citizen can do for the state. That is due to atheism being carried to its logical conclulsion that human life has no intrinsic worth.

Christianiy teaches us to love one another and do good to all. That every person is equally valuable in the eyes of God. No matter if you are blind and deaf and lying on a hospital bed for your entire life you have infinite value. This is very different from the conclusions of atheism and communism.

3) Officialy atheist nations have no tolerance for other religions. They kill, exile, or oppress those who follow other religions.

Christian churches do not go out killing or oppressing unbelievers nor do they punish believers for their sins.

4) Officialy atheist nations brainwash their children. The children must be made to believe their rights come from the state, not from God. The children are just numbers, slaves to be used by the state for its goals.

Christian churches teach all rights come from God, not from the state and that children are a blessing from God to be treasured.

5)It is VERY enlightening to observe that thre are no atheist organizations to feed to poor or do ohter charity work while there are many thousands of Christian organizations that are charitable. Likewise, in every officially atheist nation the poor are furthur oppressed, not "liberated."

Quote:
Both paint a paradise picture as the aim, and both develop structures of rulership, of domination, of a small class of people who are the "keepers of truth", the official interpreterts and determiners of the party line, both have abused their position massively in the course of their reign, so that a handful of people would have paradise on Earth already.


That is oh so very false. I don't know of any Christians who are "dominated" by the clergy. Protestants particularly teach the priesthood of the believer. God wants us all to have a relationship with him. Lol, it is hard to "dominate" someone when they can just simply go to another church.

And if you want to talk of abuser though, atheist tyrants have been the ultimate abusers. The bigest mass murderers in history.

There of course have been some wolves in sheeps cothing who have abused the flock, but not on such a massive scale as the atheistic abuses of history, and the wolves themselves were undoubtedly atheists.

Lol! Are you claimin the clergy has "paradise on earth?" Preachers usually spend more time "working" than anyone in their church and could make much more money in the secular world. On the other hand, certainly in officially atheist nations the atheist ruleers have gathered the wealth to themselves. They  place no value on human life, so why shouldn't they?

Quote:
In theory, Christian religion - the new testament - may sound good. In theory communism sounds good as well. If you accept certain assumptions, that is.
IN PRACTISE, however, the actual and factual organizations, once established, first and foremost had the purpose to establish itself even firmer.


Ah, but we have seen that Christians have many thousands of charitable organizations why atheist organizations are absent in that regard.

Quote:
Now, the main problem here is that the religious types always argue IN THEORY for their religion. They always go back to Jesus and the bible, they always say that people who act against their words are no Christians and so on.


Well, of course, Jesus said if you don't follow his teachins you are not his. So if you don't follow the teachings of Christ you are not a Christian. That's pretty simple to understand.

Quote:
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Quote:
Joh 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Quote:
Was it a place of peace, of prosperity, of teaching the words of Jesus?
What more can you want? 700 years and what we got was illiterate people, so the Church could retain their monopoly of reading and writing; superstition; war; the inquisition; indoctrination of the worst kind; injustice; male chauvinism; plague; famine; and a glorious ruling caste of bishops and cardinals and popes and even priests.


Actually, Christianity is responsible for modern science. The West prospered because of Christianity.

Now, of course there were wolves in sheeps clothing who abused people, but they were not Christians according to the teachings of Jesus.

Quote:
Communism could only prevail in the USSR because there STILL was the unholy alliance of the orthodox priests with the landowners - Russia, at the beginning of the 20th century was still an absoloutely ruled country where the nobility and the clerus had nearly absolute rights.


Actually, that is false. Stalin and Lenin, like atheist tyrants beofre them, burned down churches, banned Bible, killed, and oppressed millinos of Christians.

The goal of Lenin (and the "Leauge of Militant Atheists") was to stamp out Christianity in 5 years. They failed just like every other atheist nation that has tried to stamp out Christianity.

Intollerant, murderous, militant atheism is the heart of communism. I'm not saying all atheists have that kind of atheism.

Quote:
IN PRACTISE, we have corrupt politicians and corrupt priests - there is no difference whatsoever between the governmental structure of any POLITICAL entity or that of a church, and I actually don't see anay quality difference between priests and politicians either.


Nah, most Protestant churches operate very independant of "denominationsl leadership." The churches of the denomination just cooperate together to carry out various ministries and VOTE on issues rather than having them decided by a denominational head.

As far as in an individual church, the pastor is the man in charge but an abusive pastor would find his flock desertig to the church across town.

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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2009 11:06 PM

Guess I answered your questions =D
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted October 26, 2009 11:11 PM

Quote:
Christianiy teaches us to love one another and do good to all. That every person is equally valuable in the eyes of God. No matter if you are blind and deaf and lying on a hospital bed for your entire life you have infinite value. This is very different from the conclusions of atheism and communism.
Wonderful! That's why you oppose national healthcare I guess. If such person was born with disabilities he should get the "tough luck" from life huh?

Quote:
Christian churches teach all rights come from God, not from the state
I think the rights are still written in the law/constitution of the country you're in, which I remember, is not the Bible.

But of course to you, there's only one single "true" constitution, because only americans are Christians! Nevermind the fact that there were Christians in Europe before America was even populated with europeans!

Don't dare to compare the US Constitution to the Bible or some "divine rights".
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wog_edn
wog_edn

Promising

The Nothingness
posted October 26, 2009 11:34 PM

Quote:
Christian churches do not go out killing or oppressing unbelievers nor do they punish believers for their sins.

They did until people dared complain about it, and for some centuries those who complained were killed too ... so no, not anymore, thanks to the evil atheist laws.

Quote:
Officialy atheist nations brainwash their children. The children must be made to believe their rights come from the state, not from God.
Seriously? That coming from a christian? They teach religion at school, don't they? You seriously want them to teach the students to believe in the christian god as the almight power, instead of the laws on society? Most people get to choose their religion, I haven't heard of anyone getting to know from birth that there is no god and heaven and hell and all that junk. But religious people on the other hand teach their kids from birth that you must follow white christ and pray to him and follow his word, otherwise you'll suffer forever.
Swell goodnight story, don't ya think?
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DIEGIS
DIEGIS


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted October 26, 2009 11:47 PM

Im an orthodox christian, and yes I do believe in one God, not gods...could sound unfashionable, but thats how I am, and one of the most important things about me.

I can speak about it on many pages may be, but this is what we have to discovery ourselves.. we do have it or not...simple as that.

Just remember that salvation (by any means) is in u, depends when ur going to find it or if...
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted October 27, 2009 01:57 AM

Quote:
Guess I answered your questions =D


Actually, I had limited time, so I just answered JJ's post.

Quote:
Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, they all had cults of personality, they all had fixations on themselves being god. They were no longer Atheists as they believed themselves to be divine at that point. Fringe nutjobs, as mentioned earlier, who aren't even really what they say they are.


Nah, they never claimed to be divine. They were just atheists who liked power. They had no problem murdering millions of people because after all, people are just random sacks of random chemicals reacing in a random manner according to atheism. An atheist being self-centered does not make him no longer an atheist.


Quote:
Classic Fringe Nutjob that makes the legitimate ones look bad. Stalin was a pretend Christian too. He confessed every week to the priest just down the street from the Kremlin. Not that it would do him any good.


Nah, Stalin was a die-hard atheist who murdered millinos simply because they were Christians. He burned down most of the churches and Bible were illegal. Eventually he shifted tactics since he was not able to destroy Christianity. He started putting KGB into the pastorship of churches or severely limited what they could preach.

Quote:
That's not true. People have always valued the lives of their friends and family (except mentally ill people, who can lack that functionality). It doesn't take much to realize that if somebody matters to you, somebody else matters to another person and we are all worth something. Most people are raised to be considerate of others, and that's where they get their intrinsic value and morals of right and wrong. They are taught much as a person would be taught them regardless of a religious education or not.


Of course most people value their family and friends. However, nothing in atheism would say that the life of a person has any intrinsic worth.

I never said atheists can't care about others or be moral people. But it is inconsistent with atheism to hold that people have intrinsic worth. They can't believe in an absolute right and wrong and be an atheist. An absolute right and wrong does not exist if God does not exist.

Quote:
If somebody can't act in a way that is moral, if somebody really does take pleasure in or perhaps, just shrug off killing another human. There is something seriously broken in them that no religion can fix.


Religion can't. God can.

Quote:
Wonderful! That's why you oppose national healthcare I guess. If such person was born with disabilities he should get the "tough luck" from life huh?


i oppose theft from one person to give to another. I am in favor of charity.

By the way, studies have shown that conservatives giver far more to charity than liberals do. Yet liberals want to forcibly take on person to give to another. They need to get off their own wallet and leave mine alone.

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I think the rights are still written in the law/constitution of the country you're in, which I remember, is not the Bible.


Yes, but the founders wrote that all men are andowed by the Creator with their rights and that men create governments to protect those rihts.

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But of course to you, there's only one single "true" constitution, because only americans are Christians! Nevermind the fact that there were Christians in Europe before America was even populated with europeans!


Don't go off the deep end dude. I've never said only Americans are Christians. Christianity was beorn in Jerusalem.

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They did until people dared complain about it, and for some centuries those who complained were killed too ... so no, not anymore, thanks to the evil atheist laws.


No they did not.

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Seriously? That coming from a christian? They teach religion at school, don't they? You seriously want them to teach the students to believe in the christian god as the almight power, instead of the laws on society? Most people get to choose their religion, I haven't heard of anyone getting to know from birth that there is no god and heaven and hell and all that junk. But religious people on the other hand teach their kids from birth that you must follow white christ and pray to him and follow his word, otherwise you'll suffer forever.


No, the school I attended had no religion class, much less a Christian theology; class. But atheist states certainly do indoctrinate children into atheism and teach them to ridicuale religious people.

Sorry dude, I don't know any Christian who thinks Jesus is white. Jesus was/is a Jew as were his disciples and apostles.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2009 02:01 AM

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They can't believe in an absolute right and wrong and be an atheist. An absolute right and wrong does not exist if God does not exist.
I already told you how an absolute right and wrong exists without God.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 27, 2009 03:58 AM

First of all you are right that there is a strong correlation between religious faith and charity. The more religious you are, the more likely you are to give to charity. However the number of gifts to religious causes totals over 33 percent of all contributions - way more than any other cause!

Total giving to charitable organizations was $307.65 billion in 2008 (about 2% of GDP) Religious organizations received the most support--$106.9 billion. The next largest sector was education with $40.9 billion. And just for example the healthcare gets $21.6 billion.

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By the way, studies have shown that conservatives giver far more to charity than liberals do. Yet liberals want to forcibly take on person to give to another. They need to get off their own wallet and leave mine alone.


Maybe they know that most people would never put money to places where it is actually beneficial to wellbeing of the ones in need.

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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2009 04:00 AM

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Nah, they never claimed to be divine. They were just atheists who liked power. They had no problem murdering millions of people because after all, people are just random sacks of random chemicals reacing in a random manner according to atheism. An atheist being self-centered does not make him no longer an atheist.


Nor does anything acting self centered make a person not something else... except humble. They wouldn't be humble. But just because a person doesn't claim that they believe themselves divine doesn't mean they do not. Actions speak louder than words. These men thought themselves the new God on the block.

Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung have a cult of personality in North Korea that teaches children that Kim Il-Sung created the world. These leaders establish religions with themselves as the new God.

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Classic Fringe Nutjob that makes the legitimate ones look bad. Stalin was a pretend Christian too. He confessed every week to the priest just down the street from the Kremlin. Not that it would do him any good.


Nah, Stalin was a die-hard atheist who murdered millinos simply because they were Christians. He burned down most of the churches and Bible were illegal. Eventually he shifted tactics since he was not able to destroy Christianity. He started putting KGB into the pastorship of churches or severely limited what they could preach.


He can't be a true Atheist if he still believes in God, why else would he confess? Stalin was also a nutjob with extreme paranoia, he didn't target just Christians, he killed everybody who he thought looked out of place. A real monster.

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Of course most people value their family and friends. However, nothing in atheism would say that the life of a person has any intrinsic worth.

I never said atheists can't care about others or be moral people. But it is inconsistent with atheism to hold that people have intrinsic worth. They can't believe in an absolute right and wrong and be an atheist. An absolute right and wrong does not exist if God does not exist.


The intrinsic worth is built into people. As I said, if God suddenly stopped existing, it won't turn you into a slavering beast. Every person that doesn't have something broken in them somehow will value the lives of others simply because they would not wish that to happen to their own family. That the the objective morality that all people possess (except serial killers, terrorists and other similar people whom have become broken, and can come from all walks of life).

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Religion can't. God can.


Glad we agree on that at least.
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wog_edn
wog_edn

Promising

The Nothingness
posted October 27, 2009 09:04 AM

Riight .. they were the "true" christians at the time, if it weren't for them christianity wouldn't be as "great" as it is today.

Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare: Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies.

The Crusades: The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Kill them all, God will know his own.”

The African slave trade (mostly by christians): Claimed the lives of 10 million

And the last century you would just claim the leaders for being non-christian anyway... though many seemed to believe in god. And sure there were atheist leaders too, but it's plain out stupid to claim that christians didn't kill in the name of their god. You have the witch-burnings too, how nice christians used to be. Atheists continued to be persecuted, and by the 19th century atheists in Britain were jailed rather than executed. In 1883, George Foote, editor of the Freethinker, was jailed for blasphemy. Apparently the  church  in England no longer believes that those who disagree with it should be jailed.
In Norway the Sami people were punished for not believing in the "true Christian god".
Cecco d'Ascoli were burned alive for saying the earth was round, not flat, and that people might live on the oter side.
Nicolaus Copernicus claimed the earth to move around the sun, and not visa versa, which the church claimed to be wrong opposed to the bible.

As pioneering scientists in Europe and America in the 18th and 19th centuries discovered that the Flood never happened, the Earth was not just a few thousand years old, animals had existed for millions  of years before humans, and the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve never existed, religious people had to come up with an explanation as to why such nonsense was in their holy book.

Their first reaction was spluttering denial of science, as in Pope Pius IX, who called the descent of humans from non-humans "a tissue of fables". But soon they had to come up with better replies. The one they settled on was that these stories aren't meant to be taken "literally", but rather are myths or allegories. Only a simple-minded fool would think these stories were meant to be literal history.

This is all very well, but ignores the fact that every single Christian thinker before the 18th century appears to be just such a "simple-minded fool", including Jesus himself.

And now I am bored ...
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