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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The morality and ethics of War
Thread: The morality and ethics of War This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
Mytical
Mytical


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posted August 27, 2009 06:49 AM

To be honest the Religious Right are a little more scary then the so called terrorist.  Now, to clarify I mean the 'zealots' that think that everybody should pretty much be forced to worship their way. Before we get into a 'but they are not true (etc)' debate.  Remember it doesn't matter, because they profess to be.  No ammount of bible quoting changes one simple fact.  There is no way to tell which 'interpretation' of the bible is the acurate one.  Why should we believe one sect that says "We know the truth!  Ours is the ONLY truth." over another?  So if they say "We are christian, and THIS truth (With bible quotes) is the only truth." those of us who have different beliefs don't really care when somebody else posts different quotes and claims "No!  THIS is the truth."
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 06:55 AM

What denomination is trying you to force you to worship their way? Catholics? Baptists? Assemply of God? Pentecostal? Presbyterian?

No Christian denomination sanctions violence. You are under no threat of being blown up by a Christian terrorist group.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 27, 2009 07:34 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 07:35, 27 Aug 2009.

How about this one:

http://www.armyofgod.com/

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 07:44 AM

Quote:
How about this one:

http://www.armyofgod.com/


Whatever that is, it is not a Christian denomination. It has to be a very small group something like Waco and David Koresh.

All Christian denominations condemned the murder of the abortionist Tiller.

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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 08:21 AM

Don't start that song again. They ARE Christian terrorists, namely anti-abortion terrorists. They THINK they are Christian, they call themselves Christian and they do it in the name of and with Bible quotes. For all practical purposes they ARE Christian.

You cannot just "excommunicate" everyone whom you don't like or who is not a Christian according to your Bible interpretation.
If that was so, there would be no muslim terrorists either, because there are enough who dismiss the violence interpretations of the Quran as wrong.

Fact is, at the extreme right of the Christian spectrum there is violence lurking as well - has always been.
The Ulster problem is basically an inter-Christian problem as well - you could describe the IRA as a very specific Catholic terror organization.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:36, 27 Aug 2009.

Can you call someone that kills a Christian?

A false Christian, maybe. What kind of "Christian" is he anyway if he doesn't obey the principle "don't murder" ?

Someone is a driver when he's driving a car, yeah. But if he's driving backwards, on the wrong side of the road, breaking all speed limits and ignoring the stop signs, can he be treated seriously? Like "drivers should take blame because of him" or "code of the road sucks because of him"? (Common argument against religion - and stupid one, too. People see others who don't care about the rules and CLAIM the RULES are STUPID because of people that DON'T OBEY them. Logic = none.)

In other words, people that murder don't obey Christian principles, and can be called Christians but Christianity can't be blamed because of them not doing what a Christian should. Trying to blame a knife instead of cutler is ridiculous, always and in every case.

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baklava
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posted August 27, 2009 10:54 AM

Quote:
What denomination is trying you to force you to worship their way? Catholics?

Yup.
Well, at least they did, up to the middle of the 20th century over in Croatia for example. And in some other parts of the world too, I suppose.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 11:11 AM

Doom, that is just complete nonsense: Would you say that a soldier can't be a Christian? He's killing as well, isn't he?
You see the problem this question raises, right?

Now look at the ARMY of god. ARMY, that is, they see themselves as soldiers - in this case as soldiers fighting for the unborn life. In their view abortionists and abortion hospitals and doctors are muderers that get away, unpunished, probably because society is too self-absorbed and doesn't care.

So when these people kill, they don't murder, but they punish people who are themselves murderers - and I don't think that Christian belief is explicitely against the death penalty.

Now note that it's their BELIEF that tells them that abortion is wrong and in fact murder of innocent life; their CHRISTIAN belief.

The trouble is, that you are between a rock and a hard place, especially as a Christian, when you perceive something as WRONG, because YOUR BELIEF says so, but society doesn't act. On one hand, sure, violence is something to be avoided, looking at Jesus. But on the other, it's no good as a Christian to just stand by and let incredible wrong happen.
The next trouble is that the old-testamentarian god gives enough examples of ruthless hardliner action against everything perceived sinful, so the Bible is a ground for BOTH violent and "decisive" action as well as peaceful behaviour.

In that it's not different from the Quoran which has two main directions as well, the more warlike approach against infidels and the more peaceful one.


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Doomforge
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posted August 27, 2009 12:42 PM

JJ: Actually, some (and me as well) believe killing is a different thing than murder.

MURDER is prohibited. Whether soldiers are killing or murdering, it's not my cup of tea at all to wonder, though.

Quote:
Now note that it's their BELIEF that tells them that abortion is wrong and in fact murder of innocent life; their CHRISTIAN belief.


I agree. Ultimately it's about what you believe in. Morals are not absolute, for Elodin abortion is a murder, sin and such, for me it isn't. We're both Christians, you see. Elodin will say his interpretation of Bible says I'm wrong, (and probably believe his interpretation is correct), I will just say my interpretation is different and I don't know whether it's wrong or right, can't check anyway.

So in other words, it's up to each person to decide, Christian or not.

As for the Old Testament, I don't want to discuss it, because I'm not a big fan of it. I think it's best to leave it be and focus on NT instead, if you want to be a Christian.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 01:07 PM

That's YOUR opinion - but it's just an opinion.

You see, if you make a difference between "murder" and "killing", and say that "killing" is in line with Christianity (and murdering is not), the problem comes down to the question of whether the ending of a human life is a murder or a killing. So what would be murderers and Non-Christians for some would be fighters for life, god, and righteousness for others.

Which would mean that those terrorists are Christians after all, Christians who don't define their doings as murder, but as judgement.

Moreover you cannot escape the Old Testament - you cannot just put it away like a lump of geasy fat dangling from a tasty steak. It's there, and the God described there hasn't died a sudden and unexpected death or something. You cannpt pick the raisins out of the cake and leave the rest to rot.

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 01:55 PM

Quote:
Don't start that song again. They ARE Christian terrorists, namely anti-abortion terrorists. They THINK they are Christian, they call themselves Christian and they do it in the name of and with Bible quotes. For all practical purposes they ARE Christian.



I'm sorry, but according to the words of Jesus Christ they are not Christians. You don't get to define who is a Christian and the Bible is clear that they are not. There is no "interpretation" to be done.

Quote:
Luk 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Quote:
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Quote:
Mat 16:24  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


The Bible says if you hate or murder you are not a Christian.

Quote:
1Jn 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20  If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


Quote:
hp 3:18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


Quote:
Now look at the ARMY of god. ARMY, that is, they see themselves as soldiers - in this case as soldiers fighting for the unborn life.


I'm sorry, but Jesus does not have an army. Show me a verse in the New Testament where Jesus said he has an army that is to go out and punish sinners. It is not there. Christians are not authorized to punish sinners JJ. But you already knew that.

Quote:
The next trouble is that the old-testamentarian god gives enough examples of ruthless hardliner action against everything perceived sinful, so the Bible is a ground for BOTH violent and "decisive" action as well as peaceful behaviour.


That is an untrue statement. The nation of Israel had laws, like all other nations, and punishment for breaking the laws. The Jews did not go traveling outside Israel looking for sin to punish. They punished sin within the borders of Israel.

But you are making untrue claims about Christians JJ. Christians are not a nation and have no civil laws. Christians don't punish sin JJ. We have no authority to do so.

Show me a verse where the New Testament says for Christians to punish sin JJ. It is not there.

It is unfortunate that you continue to claim that people the Bible says are not Christians are.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 27, 2009 02:06 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 14:08, 27 Aug 2009.

Ok, Elodin, I'm asking you the same question as Doom:

Can soldiers be Christians or not? Fighting soldiers. For example the Amrican soldiers that fought and killed in Iraq - if they are members of the Christian religion and believe in Christ, are they Christians or not?

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 02:33 PM

@JJ

Why did you not anwer my questions?

Quote:
Ok, Elodin, I'm asking you the same question as Doom:

Can soldiers be Christians or not? Fighting soldiers. For example the Amrican soldiers that fought and killed in Iraq - if they are members of the Christian religion and believe in Christ, are they Christians or not?


Yes, a Christian can be a soldier of a nation. Christianity has no army. Show me a verse where Jesus raised an army or commanded the church to raise an army. The Chrisian is to fight with the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. He is to proclaim the gospel of Christ.

Show me a single verse in the New Testament that says for Christians to punish sin. The only thing Christians are allowed to do is disfellowship a person who says he is a Christian but who is living in sin and who refuses to repent after several attempts have been made to bring him to repentance.

Physical nations have physical borders and armies. The church is not a physical nation and has no need of soldiers to defend borders and is not authorized to raise an army. The church is not authorized to punish sin.

In fact the Bible say that it is the responsibility of the state to be a "terror" to "evildoers", not a function of the church. God ordained that governments are to punish evil, not that the church punish evil.

Quote:
Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 27, 2009 02:46 PM

Ok, so a soldier CAN be a Christian, even though he kills.

So I suppose it's about a KILLER can be a Christian, but a MURDERER can not.

So tell me, then, what exactly is the difference between KILLING and MURDERING.

If, for example, you put a murderer to death, is that killing or murdering. Let's say you live in a really ugly state - Hitler's Germany, Stalin's USSR, some American banana republic with a torturing secret service: if you kill an atheist torturer and murderer, aren't you fighting a war then as well, are you not a soldier then for all the suppressed, enslaved and agonized people of your country? Can you be a Christian, if you put such a person to death?

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 03:00 PM

@JJ Why won't you answer my questions?

Quote:
If, for example, you put a murderer to death, is that killing or murdering.


If I killed a murderer because he is a murderer I would be a murderer if I was acting as a private citizen. I already showed you that the Bible says the state is to punish evil, not the church, and not a private individual.

Now if I had the job of carrying out the death penalty given to me by the state I would not be a murderer if I administered the lethal injection.

I already said a Christian can be a member of the armed forces of a nation and participate in war as a member of the armed forces.

But the church is not a nation and is not authorized by Jesus to raise an army.

The church is not authorized to kill anyone or to punish sin in any way beyond disfellowshipping people who claim to be Christians but who persist in living in sin.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 27, 2009 03:16 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 15:18, 27 Aug 2009.

Quote:

JJ Why won't you answer my questions?

Because I want to clarify some things first.

You mean, if you live in an "evil" country you cannot fight against the oppressors without giving up your Christianity?

You mean, Christian Germans, if they had struggled against the Nazi regime, would have stopped being Christians?

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted August 27, 2009 03:56 PM

Quote:
Which would mean that those terrorists are Christians after all, Christians who don't define their doings as murder, but as judgement.
You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what they believe they are or think they are.

I can think I'm an atheist and commit the worst atrocity and say "Come dear atheists! Let's unite and torture everyone who isn't an atheist" does that make me a real atheist for all practical purposes?
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 04:17 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Which would mean that those terrorists are Christians after all, Christians who don't define their doings as murder, but as judgement.
You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what they believe they are or think they are.


It doesn't? Well, why, for example is the Catholic Church then called "Christian"? It wasn't then and it still isn't. Why are the ex-communist states called "communist" then - they never were. Why...

Anyway, Death, if it doesn't matter what they believe they are or think they are, I suppose it's a question of what they do - how they act - and how that compares to the theory written in their holy book.

Maybe you can answer then: what makes the difference between killing and murdering - or is there none? Can someone who kills people be a Christian or not?
Can a member of a resistance movement in Nazi Germany who would kill SS butchers be a Christian?

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TheDeath
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posted August 27, 2009 04:27 PM

I'm not sure, I would say yes, you can kill and still be a Christian -- I'm not sure how much of a Christian though (let's just say that I'm not talking about being as pure as Jesus obviously! since we usually definitely sin) but in self-defense for instance when you can't do anything else, I would say you ought to kill
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 27, 2009 04:32 PM

Quote:
Quote:

JJ Why won't you answer my questions?

Because I want to clarify some things first.

You mean, if you live in an "evil" country you cannot fight against the oppressors without giving up your Christianity?

You mean, Christian Germans, if they had struggled against the Nazi regime, would have stopped being Christians?


Where did you possilby get that idea? I said the church is not authorized to punish sin or torture sinneers.

Jesus said to preach repentance of sin, not torture sinners.

Quote:
Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


See? Preach JJ, not torture.

Anyone can try to play little word games if they want to, but that has nothing to do with truth. Anyone can try to keep talking and trying to lead someone in to making an answer that can be twisted to mean something else, but that has nothing to do with truth either.

The plain clear and undeniable fact is Jesus never raised an army or commanded an army to be raised. Jesus never said to kill or torture any sinner. Jesus said to love, pray for, and do good to sinners, not to torture them. Jesus said to call them to repentance.

The church is not a physical nation. Jesus did not establish a political kingdom. Jesus never commanded his people to fight in his name. The kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom.

Quote:
Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Quote:
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
;

Love, bless, pray for, do good to.

When we read the book of Acts, which contains the account of the birth of the church and the early church years we don't see the apostles and other Christians running around raising an army or torturing people or punishing sin. No, we see them preaching and we see the pagans torture them and kill them for preaching.

I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as torturing, killing, or punishing sin in the name of Christ. If you continue to claim ther is, produce the New Testament commands to do so.

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