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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2009 04:18 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 02:51, 14 Aug 2009.
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So why did your Prime Minister go to America for treatment?
Because out system only pay private companies for treatment at the most competitive rates. It's not even "socialized medicine" as pundits like to call it. Why do doctors get paid less here? Because they face greater competition with more people able to see whomever they want and the government paying the bill. If we don't have the equipment to get a specialized surgery done, we pay the bill to send the sick person where they can get it.
Jesus didn't ask the lepers for shekels at the fair market price.
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Which of Beck's statistics do you claim are wrong, and please provide links.
I did provide that link above, clearly showing the longer lifespan here. I couldn't find a link of it, but America has a higher "cancer cure rate" because people there only get treated if they can afford it and only people treated are counted towards the statistics. The statistics in Britain and the like are counted differently since all people are eligible for treatment all people are counted even if not treated.
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You complain about doctors leaving Canada and call them "pricks." But isn't the Canadian government the "prick" for not compensating them fairly? Why not call the government "greedy" instead of the doctors? If they gave them their free market fair value they would stay put.
They are given fair market value. It's just that the ones who leave want to charge even more to the government and "double bill" as I mentioned. My husband's aunt and uncle are both doctors and they work very hard but love their jobs for the people they help, not for the pursuit of money. Greed is a sin, don't forget that. Also...
[quote=Jesus]“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
“If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it. And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:34-38)
Jesus says to treat others as you would want to be treated. Our doctors are treated well with only a minority of greedy people going south and making malpractice extra money. Maybe 9% of our doctors say?
I'd say our doctors are also more truly devout (pertaining to the second quote), casting off most the the rich excesses that american doctors seem to love. They also get sued a lot less because they're not under as much pressure to cut costs and make maximum profit. Rather than living in sin and gobbling up people's life savings.
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Doctors go through many years of intensive study and should be compensated well. Otherwise they might as well take a job that requires less education and is less stressful. So I guess you should contact your parliament and ask for a higher tax rate so the doctors can be fairly compensated.
Education is cheaper here for students so doctors do not have to pay as much. Yes they still have costly and long educations, but even making 40% (as Beck says) less money here is far more than enough to live comfortably for the rest of your days. I think living well with a big house and nice family in a pristine neighbourhood near sunny beaches is enough compensation.
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Yes, it is true that those who left Europe could not have been running from socialism. But they were running from an oppressive government that thought it had the right to control every aspect of their lives, like socialism.
So they were running from a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with to found a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with.
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You say America spends a huge amount of GDP on health care. That may be true. But America also treats for free a huge number of illegal immigrants and also has a higher cure rate than European countries in a number of different cancers and such. And of course in America there are the welfare voters who are slaves of the socialist party. Exchange votes for money confiscated from others.
You make it sound like emergency rooms treat people with small boo boos. How come people have to pay tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to get fingers sewed back on when they're in an accident? Illegal immigrants can't vote. "Welfare voters" are not all "slaves" as you put it. Yes with any system there will be some abuse but it's not like it rampant here.
Are you saying the poor in America are more lazy? <- This is an honest question... just curious more than anything else.
Tax isn't really a confiscation. Taxes pay for roads, bridges, schools, police, libraries, fire services, defense, infrasctucture. If they didn't exist society would collapse.
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I don't think anybody who speaks against it has lived in poverty like I have (my dad had a stroke and couldn't work).
Untrue. I grew up poor. But my father taught me to work and that society owed me nothing. And work I did. Oh so many hours. I did not want to stay in poverty. I have worked my butt off to become relatively prosperous. I give tons to charity. But don't demand that I give anyone anything or say anyone has a right to what I earn. It is not fair to use a politician to steal from me and it is no different from sticking a gun under my nose.
Did you have to line up for hours at Christmas just for chance at a dirty used toy when you were just barely old enough to walk because your parents couldn't afford any?
If politicians in general were not inherently corrupt jerks who spend money on hundred dollar lunches and the like, the government would be a charity considering the services it provides (particularly health care and temporary subsidized housing... which I've had the displeasure of living in for a couple years). Seeing as it isn't, my family also gives what we can to charity.
You're talking about real charities that help unfortunate people like United Way or Amnesty International and the like right?
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Private medical care just doesn't look out for the little person. It's the attitude of "You can't afford it? Go die in a gutter you piece of trash".
That is simply untrue. In America it is illegal to turn a patient away from the emergency room if he needs treatment. I've never seen anyone dying from a disease in the gutter.
I admit, I was exaggerating, though only a bit. People don't actually die in the gutter, they're given the dignity to die in their own home. Regardless, if emergency rooms were truly free and offered such great service for cancer patients, stroke victims and the like why even have insurance?
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Beck is not the only one to talk about surgery being canceled in Britain You can find many example if you search the internet.
It's very easy to flood the internet with talking points from political mouthpieces. That's what most articles from... well nearly anywhere are.
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There are also lots of stories of rationing in Canada. Are you saying rationing does not occur?
Actually it does. My husband's grandma went through surgery for her cancer a few times but they stopped when they feared that anymore intestines taken out would also kill her. So yes, people are cut off when there's below a 0.01% chance of survival.
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Do you think people in the US get quicker treatment or people from Canada?
The US DOES have preferrential quicker treatment for rich people. Poor people have to wait in emergency rooms for a very long time though and can't even get treated for the most serious problems.
A government that does everything in its power to ensure its citizens have every opportunity to improve themselves are truly more in touch with ones that leave people to fend for themselves.
[quote=Jesus]"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."
What happened to the America that used to take this to heart? To "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" and believed that "all people were created equal"? If everything is preferrential towards the rich, that's hardly equal.
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Clicky
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Private for-profit clinics are a booming business in Canada -- a country often touted as a successful example of a universal health system.
Facing long waits and substandard care, private clinics are proving that Canadians are willing to pay for treatment.
"Any wait time was an enormous frustration for me and also pain. I just couldn't live my life the way I wanted to," says Canadian patient Christine Crossman, who was told she could wait up to a year for an MRI after injuring her hip during an exercise class. Warned she would have to wait for the scan, and then wait even longer for surgery, Crossman opted for a private clinic.
Canada has always had private healthcare clinics/private practices. It's just paid for by the government. Her surgery while yes, it's unfortunate she had to wait, isn't critical. By all accounts she wasn't in very much pain at all and it certainly wasn't life threatening. She's exaggerating on the MRI waits though. People always exaggerate when they are inconvenienced. It's the sad fate of human nature.
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Private for-profit clinics are permitted in some provinces and not allowed in others. Under the Canada Health Act, privately run facilities cannot charge citizens for services covered by government insurance.
But a 2005 Supreme Court ruling in Quebec opened the door for patients facing unreasonable wait times to pay-out-of-pocket for private treatment.
Yes, Quebec is like a mini-France, which does the same thing. However, even paying for treatment as an option in Quebec (or France) is much cheaper than doing to in the US.
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He's essentially comparing pitchforks to waffles. He's also only talking to his audience of rich white people when he specifically mentions them fleeing Europe.
Beck's radio program is the third most listened to program in America. Do you think there are that many rich white people in America? I think not.
Beck was still only addressing the white portion of his audience by specifically mentioning Europe and not Asia and Africa as well. Also it's known that many poor white people tune into his shows as well as Fox is their only source of information. But the sad thing is he's a pundit. He's not a reporter. He's a squawk box like Oblermann from MSNBC or Limbaugh or Hannity. All he does is restate talking points while calling himself a Libertarian despite not acting like one most times. He's only suddenly against FEMA, the NSA and the government in general once the Republican party if out of power conveniently (same as others are suddenly for/against those such things on political lines). He's not a reliable source for news.
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Oh, he is dominating the ratings in his TV show though he just recently moved to a different time slot and network. Clicky
I don't see any mentioning of another network. But yes, he is very popular. That's because he's a sock comic and not a real reporter. He's the Howard Stern of fox.
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Oh, he has a number one best seller too. Yeah, his audience is only rich white people. Meanwhile the uber leftist stations like MSNBC are plummeting in ratings.
Most people never listened to MSNBC in the first place. Why does this matter?
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I know my family came here because of war and famine, which I think is the most common reason for immigration overall.
I think the the most common reasons were religious, political, and economic freedom. So in a word, freedom.
Which is just another way of saying my family escaped the Khmer Rouge (who were Communists supported by the Democrats AND the Republicans in their campaign to kill their own people BTW) to flee from war and famine.
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Oh, Beck didn't tear an actual dollar bill. That was just a clip of the show. On the show itself he showed that the dollar came from a copying machine.
He should have noted that at the start of his clip that happens to be on his own website instead of creating the illusion of him committing a felony.
P.S.
In Canada we have the Conservative party in power right now, and though they may not be fans of abortion or gay marriage, they love the health care system.
Also if you're a fan of 24, Jack Bauer's grandfather is the one you have to thank for the idea of government funded healthcare 
I'm actually fairly conservative (in the classical sense, not the neo-modern sense), but I wouldn't take away a person's freedom by forcing my beliefs on them. I'm merely stating my own viewpoints.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 14, 2009 04:17 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:28, 14 Aug 2009.
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Why do doctors get paid less here? Because they face greater competition with more people able to see whomever they want and the government paying the bill.
Don't you think it is the government limiting what doctors get paid? It the US the US government pays doctors very little for seeing medicare patients and thus many doctors don't treat medicare patients because they often can't even recover the cost of treating the patients from the government much less make any profit.
If the Prime Minister of Canada had to go to the US for treatment doesn't that mean there is something wrong with the system in Canada? Do normal citizens get sent out of country for treatment? I don't think so. I think the Prime Minister paid out of his own pocket for treatment.
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Jesus didn't ask the lepers for shekels at the fair market price.
I have no idea what you are getting at there. Jesus is God existing as a man. He did not do a standard medical treatment or get paid by those he healed. An actual doctor has to make a living and has to pay his staff, electricity bill, building rent, ect. Doctors can't treat everyone for free.
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I did provide that link above, clearly showing the longer lifespan here. I couldn't find a link of it, but America has a higher "cancer cure rate" because people there only get treated if they can afford it and only people treated are counted towards the statistics.
No, the poor can't be turned away from health care treatment in the US so the US is just plain better at dealing with most forms of cancer. Also, the deaths from wars and such factor into the US life expectancy as well as the US trying to save more babies than other countries and counting all still births as deaths.
Again, if the US health care is so bad it is strange that people from countries with socialized medicine who can afford it go to the US for treatment.
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They are given fair market value.
I'm sorry, but that can't be the case or they would not leave. Their pay is like 40% of what US doctors get paid. They spend many years in training and quite simply are not being compensated enough because the government is trying to save money.
The Scriptures you quoted in no way apply to the doctors "being selfish" for wanting to be paid fairly.
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“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
Oh yes, if you want a fair wage pay others fairly. So you should demand to pay more in taxes so your doctors can be fairly compensated.
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“If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it. And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:34-38)
Yes indeed, but don't point your finger at the doctor and call him selfish when he is only getting 40% of fair market value. It is the tax payers who are being selfish. Pay up.
Oh, here is a nice Scripture socialists forget.
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2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Charity is given willingly, not stolen with a gun or with a politician. And not all doctors are Christians so you can hardly hold them to a Christian standard.
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They also get sued a lot less because they're not under as much pressure to cut costs and make maximum profit. Rather than living in sin and gobbling up people's life savings.
US doctors are subject to frivolous lawsuits. There needs to be tort reform to protect the doctors, which would cut down on malpractice insurance. As far as you accusing American doctors of being greedy and living in sin and not caring about the patients I can't believe you wrote that. That claim is false.
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So they were running from a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with to found a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with.
They came to a land where they don't have to be grround under the boot of a socialist breaurocrat.
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You make it sound like emergency rooms treat people with small boo boos. How come people have to pay tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to get fingers sewed back on when they're in an accident? Illegal immigrants can't vote. "Welfare voters" are not all "slaves" as you put it. Yes with any system there will be some abuse but it's not like it rampant here.
Please link to the site that says it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a finger sewed back on.
It would be stupid for people who are not citizens of the US to be allowed to vote in US elections. But they do get free healh care which costs the US tax payer tons of money.
Calling the "welfare voters" slaves is better than calling them prostitutes, which is what they are. They sell their voting services for a government dole.
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Tax isn't really a confiscation. Taxes pay for roads, bridges, schools, police, libraries, fire services, defense, infrasctucture. If they didn't exist society would collapse.
High taxes are immoral and are theft. Of course things like roads and bridges and defense have to be provided for. But money should not be stolen from one person to give to anther.
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Did you have to line up for hours at Christmas just for chance at a dirty used toy when you were just barely old enough to walk because your parents couldn't afford any?
No, my father managed to buy a few items while we were young. It did not take long for us to be too old for toys. i held down a part time job from about age 10 onward as a child. My father was severely injured and disabled when I was about 15 and the local churches helped us pay our bills.
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f politicians in general were not inherently corrupt jerks who spend money on hundred dollar lunches and the like, the government would be a charity considering the services it provides (particularly health care and temporary subsidized housing... which I've had the displeasure of living in for a couple years).
Charity comes from a person giving willingly, not from a politician who stole the money through taxes to buy votes with.
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You're talking about real charities that help unfortunate people like United Way or Amnesty International and the like right?
I give my money to mostly religiously based charities where most of the money actually does what it is intended to do rather than getting burned up by beaurocratic processes.
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What happened to the America that used to take this to heart? To "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" and believed that "all people were created equal"? If everything is preferrential towards the rich, that's hardly equal.
America does feed the hungry, ect. All around the world, not just in the US. And the US takes in more immigrants that Canada. 365,000 (LEGAL) vs 260,000 legal.
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Canada has always had private healthcare clinics/private practices. It's just paid for by the government.
No, that was out of pocket for her. the private clinics are wher you have to pay if you go.
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Beck was still only addressing the white portion of his audience by specifically mentioning Europe and not Asia and Africa as well.
I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong. Please stop saying Beck is a racist because that is untrue. Nothing in his statement were to "rich white people." Don't smear him just because he is conservative.
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Also it's known that many poor white people tune into his shows as well as Fox is their only source of information.
I'm sorry, but you are making a lot of statements that seem to be racist.
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All he does is restate talking points while calling himself a Libertarian despite not acting like one most times. He's only suddenly against FEMA, the NSA and the government in general once the Republican party if out of power conveniently (same as others are suddenly for/against those such things on political lines). He's not a reliable source for news.
Oh, who gives him talking points? He is not a Republican or Democrat. Oh, and you don't know what you are talking about. Beck is first of all not "agatinst FEMA". He exposed the idea of FEMA concentration camps as a hoax although liberal liars say he said FEMA concentrtion camps are real. Now, he is wary of things like forced innoculation and such
Beck is not "against the government." He is against socialism. Beck says to vote the bums out of office, Republicans and Democrats.
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I don't see any mentioning of another network. But yes, he is very popular. That's because he's a sock comic and not a real reporter.
He calls himself an entertainer that comments on the news. But he does more actual reporting of facts than the socialist propaganda experts who call themselves reporters who work for the mainstream media.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 07:55 AM |
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Tax isn't really a confiscation. Taxes pay for roads, bridges, schools, police, libraries, fire services, defense, infrasctucture. If they didn't exist society would collapse.
High taxes are immoral and are theft. Of course things like roads and bridges and defense have to be provided for. But money should not be stolen from one person to give to anther.
Charity comes from a person giving willingly, not from a politician who stole the money through taxes to buy votes with.
I find that a bit stunning, but maybe you can help me with math. The US ministry of labor gives the following stats for the US for July 2009:
Unemployment rate: 14.5 million people or 9.4% of the the total workforce, meaning that there are 14.5 million unemployed and roundabout 140 million employed, with average weekly earnings of 734$.
Now, let' see, considering an unemployed doesn't pay any taxes, what does he need for bare survival each week. Don't forget, some of them have families with children. Starts with renting, right? No subsidized housing anymore, that's stealing as well, which means market prices. What does a flat for a family cost on average, if it's not so great, 400$ a month?. Let's say 100 a week. So what would be the bare minimum to survive in the US? 200$ a week plus 50$ per additional mouth to feed?
Let's assume the average money necessary for survival would be 250$ a week. That's roughly 3.6 BILLION $ per WEEK or about 200 BILLION $ a year - not counting health care.
Do you really think CHARITY will earn that amount of money? 200 BILLION $ a year, just for the unemployed? Even if you cut that again to half, which would mean you would have to survive on 500 $ a month on average (and god help you with a family) you'd still be with 100 BILLION bucks. That's without health care and the USUAL charity, of course.
Do you think that 14.5 million people in the US should flood the malls and shopping lanes begging for nickels? Or stand in line at the charity "centres", waiting for a bowl of soup to take home for their children?
Do you think 14.5 million beggars in your country will help drop the crime rates and make the streets safer for those in work and bread, for the elderly and so on?
Heck, it would reduce unemployment rate because the police force would hire, right? Double the personnel, they are undermanned anyway. Oh, wait, we don't have the taxes for that, we need to hire private security... no, wait, think charity, private vigilantism, neighborhood watch and stuff, everyone has a gun anyway, no problem, right? Organizing neighborhood security patrols...
Yes, I can see clearly how the people complaining about being robbed by the government would give freely for the unemployed. Especially good advice, like, GET YOURSELF A DECENT JOB, JERK!
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 09:31 AM |
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Another thread ruined. Do you people really have absolutely no concept of what staying on topic means? And you're not only off topic, but you have no idea what you are talking about.
This topic had decent potential. But alas, it goes the way of just about every other thread in the OSM these days.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 14, 2009 10:11 AM |
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The inept federal government wastes tons of money that private charities could apply more efficiently. Moreover, charity is not charity if the money is taken by force.
Unemployment payments, social security, and medicare are not welfare. Employers have to pay unemployment taxes on their employees. Social security and medicare taxes are held out of paychecks so social security and medicare is a forced insurance/retirement program, not welfare.
I am not against all welfare from the government, just most. The poor should not be made comfortable in their poverty or the majority will not be motivated to climb out of poverty. I worked lots of hours to get out of poverty so I don't see why others can't work that way too. I don't mean those who can't work, of course.
As it is a large group of people have been made dependent on the state in order to buy their votes.
Oh, and the socialists in Congress are in great part responsible for the economic woes of the US. They had threatened the banks with discrimination charges if they didn't loan poor people mortages so the banks had to start loaning poor people mortages. So Barney Frank, Maxine Waters and the other socialists in Congress are the primary ones to blame.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 03:27 PM |
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Edited by Kraken at 15:28, 14 Aug 2009.
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Actually, the Republicans are to blame for most of our Economy, not Socialists, just take a look at this: Looky.
All the way at the end, Bush = total fail loss.
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mvassilev
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posted August 14, 2009 05:59 PM |
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Kraken, that graph makes no sense. What exactly is it measuring?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 14, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Isn't it obvious? It's measuring "Score". Duh.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
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posted August 14, 2009 06:05 PM |
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 14, 2009 06:23 PM |
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I have absolutely no idea what I'm looking at. They didn't even grace me with a unit.
P.S.- You're also comparing a political party with a form of government.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted August 14, 2009 08:03 PM |
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If the Prime Minister of Canada had to go to the US for treatment doesn't that mean there is something wrong with the system in Canada? Do normal citizens get sent out of country for treatment? I don't think so. I think the Prime Minister paid out of his own pocket for treatment.
No, because "normal citizens" DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT. Of course the upper rich class will go to the US, because the US rewards the rich and cripples the poor.
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mvassilev
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posted August 14, 2009 08:32 PM |
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The poor in the capitalist US are richer than the poor in the socialist countries of Africa. Sorry, try again.
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TheDeath
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posted August 14, 2009 08:49 PM |
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I wasn't aware that Canada was in Africa 
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mvassilev
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posted August 14, 2009 08:58 PM |
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TheDeath
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posted August 14, 2009 09:04 PM |
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I wasn't aware that Canada is socialist.
Read the thread better then. This is a thread about healthcare and it is in Canada.
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mvassilev
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posted August 14, 2009 09:09 PM |
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capitalism rewards only the rich
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the US rewards the rich and cripples the poor.
The poor in the US are hardly crippled. And Canada is capitalist too.
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Keksimaton
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Talk to the hand
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posted August 14, 2009 09:16 PM |
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It's a smooth and juicy blend of the two topped with whipped cream.
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TheDeath
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posted August 14, 2009 09:22 PM |
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capitalism rewards only the rich
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the US rewards the rich and cripples the poor.
The poor in the US are hardly crippled. And Canada is capitalist too.
This is retarded discussion, since we are talking about HEALTHCARE. My first quote in your post was talking IN GENERAL, the latter was talking about Canada's healthcare system (i.e why it's good for normal citizens but bad for rich ones). "capitalism", like "socialism", applies in areas (there hardly is in real life a country 100% either of them). Since we are talking about healthcare, it is NOT capitalistic, NOT private.
So what are you arguing about?
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Shyranis
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posted August 14, 2009 10:10 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 19:01, 17 Aug 2009.
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Don't you think it is the government limiting what doctors get paid? It the US the US government pays doctors very little for seeing medicare patients and thus many doctors don't treat medicare patients because they often can't even recover the cost of treating the patients from the government much less make any profit.
Then perhaps the solution is to make doctors in the US not have to pay so much for supplies if they can't afford to treat people if they really can't afford to treat people on Medicare. Or perhaps maybe the US government pays doctors through medicare much less than Canadian doctors get paid.
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If the Prime Minister of Canada had to go to the US for treatment doesn't that mean there is something wrong with the system in Canada? Do normal citizens get sent out of country for treatment? I don't think so. I think the Prime Minister paid out of his own pocket for treatment.
Nope, all covered with our willing tax dollars. As I mentioned, normal citizens can be sent out of country for treatment with specialists for cases of rare illness.
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Jesus didn't ask the lepers for shekels at the fair market price.
I have no idea what you are getting at there. Jesus is God existing as a man. He did not do a standard medical treatment or get paid by those he healed. An actual doctor has to make a living and has to pay his staff, electricity bill, building rent, ect. Doctors can't treat everyone for free.
Jesus still needed food, water, shelter, tax money for the Romans, and other costs of living. He was afterall God living as a man, having the same needs as a man. He was also humble, and did not expect anybody to give him anything (hence the bible passage relating to his gratitude for people feeding, clothing and overall helping him).
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I did provide that link above, clearly showing the longer lifespan here. I couldn't find a link of it, but America has a higher "cancer cure rate" because people there only get treated if they can afford it and only people treated are counted towards the statistics.
No, the poor can't be turned away from health care treatment in the US so the US is just plain better at dealing with most forms of cancer. Also, the deaths from wars and such factor into the US life expectancy as well as the US trying to save more babies than other countries and counting all still births as deaths.
Cuba doesn't count still births as deaths. Most democratic nations do.
You also ignored my fact that the cancer numbers Beck mentioned are as skewed as the Cuban infant birth numbers and called them just plain better. Canada is also at war in Afghanistan. Every week we have at least one soldier dead, I know people that haven't been able to keep their flags above half mast since 2002. Percentage-wise, we are losing as many people to war currently as the US.
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Again, if the US health care is so bad it is strange that people from countries with socialized medicine who can afford it go to the US for treatment.
People who have the money will go to the US for either rare specialized diseases that we don't have the facilities for, or to cut wait times for non-threatening illnesses.
Once again, Canada doesn't use "socialized medicine". The doctors and hospitals are paid by the government but they themselves are still businesses.
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They are given fair market value.
I'm sorry, but that can't be the case or they would not leave. Their pay is like 40% of what US doctors get paid. They spend many years in training and quite simply are not being compensated enough because the government is trying to save money.
40% less does not equal 40% of. You're twisting it to look even worse. Canada has a different market and the fair market value here is less overall. How much do you think doctors are worth in China, where they also are paid fair market value? Do they make even as much as an upper middle-class person in North America? There is a lower % rate of doctors leaving Canada for the US than there are unemployed people in the US.
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The Scriptures you quoted in no way apply to the doctors "being selfish" for wanting to be paid fairly.
They are paid fairly, as I mentioned, being able to live more than comfortably with large houses in prime real estate locations with large families and far above the means of the average person and a large inheritance to pass on. How is wanting more than that anything but greedy? Did you even read what I wrote?
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“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
Oh yes, if you want a fair wage pay others fairly. So you should demand to pay more in taxes so your doctors can be fairly compensated.
As I mentioned before, doctors are more than fairly compensated. The only way they won't get out of debt and live fabulous lives would be if they died fairly soon after graduating. I'd hope they'd have life insurance, which they BTW can easily afford. Being a doctor should be an act of love, truly caring about the people you help. Not about living in the equivalent of Neverland Ranch.
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“If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it. And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:34-38)
Yes indeed, but don't point your finger at the doctor and call him selfish when he is only getting 40% of fair market value. It is the tax payers who are being selfish. Pay up.
Once again, they're getting 40% less, not 40% of. 40% less = 60% of, which is still great money. Hundreds of thousands a year. You don't be a millionaire in a year or two, but you can be if you save and invest properly like most fiscally responsible people do.
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Oh, here is a nice Scripture socialists forget.
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2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
I haven't forgotten that, (then again, I'm not a "socialist") but regardless, most people will work to improve themselves and will work to secure a proper source of income. Just because somebody is on unemployment or welfare does not mean they are all sitting around doing nothing. As I mentioned, it's not even really a problem here.
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Charity is given willingly, not stolen with a gun or with a politician. And not all doctors are Christians so you can hardly hold them to a Christian standard.
For the same reason some states ban abortion outright even in case of rape or incest. Most states claim that the country followed Christian standards because the majority at its founding were Christian.
Are you advocating the total separation of church and state?
Also, it's not a solely Christian standard. Much of the bible is in the Torah and the Koran, including the standards of helping one another, the poor, the sick and the meek.
Other religions also encourage people to help one another, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. It's not a solely Christian standard and is actually ingrained in the culture of most societies worldwide.
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They also get sued a lot less because they're not under as much pressure to cut costs and make maximum profit. Rather than living in sin and gobbling up people's life savings.
US doctors are subject to frivolous lawsuits. There needs to be tort reform to protect the doctors, which would cut down on malpractice insurance. As far as you accusing American doctors of being greedy and living in sin and not caring about the patients I can't believe you wrote that. That claim is false.
Not all US doctors, but how often do you see on the news cases of doctors that perform malpractice, move to another state where they cannot be charged and continue the viscous cycle? There are many doctors in the US that put the patient above everything else. Those are the truly admirable doctors who work the free clinics, emergency rooms, take medicare patients, etc. They still pay their bills fine. I'm talking about the greedy doctors who would rather spend 200k a year to join a golf resort to chum it up with their political buddies (Dems and Repubs) to convince them to create more rules to cause more people to have to pay even greater amounts.
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So they were running from a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with to found a government that made laws and started wars people disagreed with.
They came to a land where they don't have to be grround under the boot of a socialist breauroureaucrat.
But... but you just acknowledged that Socialist Bureaucrats couldn't have existed back then?
I'm pretty sure back then people were fleeing Europe more because of famine (The Irish), political and religious strife (British, French, Germans, Irish again and Spanish) and war (nearly all of them).
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You make it sound like emergency rooms treat people with small boo boos. How come people have to pay tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to get fingers sewed back on when they're in an accident? Illegal immigrants can't vote. "Welfare voters" are not all "slaves" as you put it. Yes with any system there will be some abuse but it's not like it rampant here.
Please link to the site that says it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a finger sewed back on.
Can't find it right now, it was years ago and google seems to have other more popular articles in the way. I don't have the time to look that up anymore. Regardless, I said "fingers" meaning multiple. Not a single finger. Although it would have cost this gentleman 60,000 to get his finger re-attached if it weren't for his insurance through his workplace, instead costing him 12,000. So for an uninsured person based on those numbers a whole hand of fingers is 300,000 uninsured and 60,000 when insured. Though I'm sure most hospitals in varying states charge different fees.
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It would be stupid for people who are not citizens of the US to be allowed to vote in US elections.
Exactly, so why do they even matter in this discussion when mentioning vote buying and welfare slaves? They have no political clout and are effectively a dead end.
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But they do get free health care which costs the US tax payer tons of money.
You mean going to the emergency room for physical, non-critical services as well as injuries relating to violence? Fine, make laws that would charge employers for hiring illegal immigrants in the states they primarily effect. Crack down on the people encouraging them to come to the country through improper channels. That would put a lot of them out of work and encourage even more of them to flee back across the border (as some are reportedly doing now due to the economic mess).
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Calling the "welfare voters" slaves is better than calling them prostitutes, which is what they are. They sell their voting services for a government dole.
You'd might as well call everybody prostitutes then. Everybody sells their votes for something. That's the game of politics. Every politician is immoral in some way and whoring themselves out for votes.
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Tax isn't really a confiscation. Taxes pay for roads, bridges, schools, police, libraries, fire services, defense, infrasctucture. If they didn't exist society would collapse.
High taxes are immoral and are theft. Of course things like roads and bridges and defense have to be provided for. But money should not be stolen from one person to give to another.
Tax isn't stealing. If it was, then every soldier, policeman, fireman, librarian, teacher, politician (well, maybe them), secret service agent, federally funded anything agency, is stealing from you and it would be more moral to live in anarchy. Which seems more and more like what you're advocating for some reason. As long as everything is used for a legitimate purpose that benefits society, it's not theft. Taxes aren't even very high in the United States.
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Did you have to line up for hours at Christmas just for chance at a dirty used toy when you were just barely old enough to walk because your parents couldn't afford any?
No, my father managed to buy a few items while we were young. It did not take long for us to be too old for toys. i held down a part time job from about age 10 onward as a child. My father was severely injured and disabled when I was about 15 and the local churches helped us pay our bills.
It's good that you overcame such things. But that's no reason to prevent other people who do not have access to local churches to help pay their bills from being able to survive as well.
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If politicians in general were not inherently corrupt jerks who spend money on hundred dollar lunches and the like, the government would be a charity considering the services it provides (particularly health care and temporary subsidized housing... which I've had the displeasure of living in for a couple years). (Yes, I corrected my own quote)
Charity comes from a person giving willingly, not from a politician who stole the money through taxes to buy votes with.
You're using the exact same words shuffled and reordered to try to debunk varied points?
Nobody has ever "bought" my vote for one thing. Here political parties don't get so much power over doing the right thing. They only get roasted over doing the wrong thing (like the sponsorship scandal that brought down the Liberal party here and brought in the Conservatives I mentioned are currently in power). As I mentioned, I'm more of a conservative, not a neo-con.
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You're talking about real charities that help unfortunate people like United Way or Amnesty International and the like right?
I give my money to mostly religiously based charities where most of the money actually does what it is intended to do rather than getting burned up by beaurocratic processes.
Most religiously based charities tend to also try to convert the people they help, they are also placed under the same regulations as a non-religious charity. Typically they spend more money on trying to "save souls" over saving lives. Your money gets burned by about 60% no matter who you choose but a slight edge more towards the religious organizations.
There is nothing wrong with a religious based charity however, as they are helping the poor and the needy. Which is truly what matters. However, typically I'd rather give to a church where the priest doesn't wear a fancy suit and gold jewelry or spend on such luxuries as a fancy crystal cathedral (for example). The Salvation Army for example runs humble churches, I appreciate those more than gargantuan spires.
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What happened to the America that used to take this to heart? To "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" and believed that "all people were created equal"? If everything is preferrential towards the rich, that's hardly equal.
America does feed the hungry, ect. All around the world, not just in the US. And the US takes in more immigrants that Canada. 365,000 (LEGAL) vs 260,000 legal.
America has 10x the population of Canada and thus is able to process many more legal immigrants. by population percentage it would be 2,600,000 legal in canada compared to 365,000 in the US. You know, I'm not even going to call the US America anymore because it's the United States of America (meaning, United States within the continents of America), which makes Guatemalans just as American as a person from the US. The US also spends far less of its GDP on feeding the hungry worldwide than most other Western Democracies.
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Canada has always had private healthcare clinics/private practices. It's just paid for by the government.
No, that was out of pocket for her. the private clinics are where you have to pay if you go.
I wasn't talking about her. I was speaking in general. All clinics are private. However there are some that have opened up in (Mini France) that do not work under government insurance.
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Beck was still only addressing the white portion of his audience by specifically mentioning Europe and not Asia and Africa as well.
I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong. Please stop saying Beck is a racist because that is untrue. Nothing in his statement were to "rich white people." Don't smear him just because he is conservative.
I keep telling you, I'm Conservative. Beck is a puppet. I never actually called him a racist, merely said he was addressing the white portion on his audience. There is a fundamental difference between the two. He himself may not be racist, but he's playing many completely dangerous racial cards much like many other faux-cons. It's gotten to the point where the Neo-Nazis and KKK are actively trying to recruit at Tea Parties by using the words of people like Beck. If he's not a racist, he at least knows that he's inciting the (however small) racist portion of his audience.
A little while ago Beck said of Obama for example: "He's a Racist", after saying "I don't think he hates white people", which was immediately after saying he "has a deep seated hatred for white people". Yes, he contradicted himself twice. But he's also said that everything on the democratic agenda was focused on reparations. He says that the country is headed towards totalitarianism, but never said a peep while Bush was in power.
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Also it's known that many poor white people tune into his shows as well as Fox is their only source of information.
I'm sorry, but you are making a lot of statements that seem to be racist.
I'm part white. As mentioned, I wasn't saying Beck was racist, only prodding a certain demographic of his viewers. Much like the NAACP primarily addresses people of colour. I'm not calling his viewers uneducated or stupid or anything of that sort, merely that they rely on him for more information than they should. It's like basing everything you believe on Stephen Colbert.
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All he does is restate talking points while calling himself a Libertarian despite not acting like one most times. He's only suddenly against FEMA, the NSA and the government in general once the Republican party if out of power conveniently (same as others are suddenly for/against those such things on political lines). He's not a reliable source for news.
Oh, who gives him talking points? He is not a Republican or Democrat. Oh, and you don't know what you are talking about. Beck is first of all not "agatinst FEMA". He exposed the idea of FEMA concentration camps as a hoax although liberal liars say he said FEMA concentrtion camps are real. Now, he is wary of things like forced innoculation and such.
Beck is not "against the government." He is against socialism. Beck says to vote the bums out of office, Republicans and Democrats.
He exposed them as a hoax after talking about them as though they were real. That's damage control. Yes, there are many Liberal liars, and liars all over in every political spectrum. Politics are a sick game where nobody can get by with an honest opinion. The "Liberal Liars" you mentioned are more like Liberal Exaggerators, blowing certain things way out of proportion. Exactly like Beck does. He's exactly as reliable as them. Least of all honest citizens.
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I don't see any mentioning of another network. But yes, he is very popular. That's because he's a sock comic and not a real reporter.
He calls himself an entertainer that comments on the news. But he does more actual reporting of facts than the socialist propaganda experts who call themselves reporters who work for the mainstream media.
He's worse than the mainstream media, both are paid large amounts of money to benefit only certain companies but the media has to appear fair and balanced, has to try to keep an illusion of objectivity. Beck and the like are able to throw that out the window. Exactly like Howard Stern indeed.
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the socialists in Congress are in great part responsible for the economic woes of the US. They had threatened the banks with discrimination charges if they didn't loan poor people mortages so the banks had to start loaning poor people mortages. So Barney Frank, Maxine Waters and the other socialists in Congress are the primary ones to blame.
They are largely to blame, yes. But so are the Republicans. The main cause of the collapse was massive bi-partisan deregulation and zero accountibility. Banks were lobbying to be able to do real-estate and become one stop shops long before those rules brought in by the Democrats, but those rules only made the collapse come quicker. Only a couple lone Democrats out of all of congress complained. It was the greatest Bi-Partisan blunder in the last 100 years of the United States of America.
Tax cuts are a great thing for the wealthy if they are accompanied with regulations specifically stated towards creating new jobs. Instead of making new jobs and "trickling down" however, companies used their tax break money to relocate even more jobs to China and put more people on welfare. I myself do think that the wealthy should enjoy some tax breaks, as long as they actually use them to benefit the nation and not enrich the Chinese, who already own the vast majority of the American national debt.
Yes, I get a lot of information from my Husband. And yes, he's saddened by the state of America today too because he's related to a couple of Presidents and Founding Fathers. Such a promising country.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 11:06 PM |
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Death:
I know from personal experience that private health care is much better than government health care.
Shyranis:
Yeah, deregulation caused this crisis. I mean, it could probably have been avoided if we had an Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, Office of Thrift Supervision, Office of Financial Institutions, Office of International Trade, Office of Banking and Securities, Office of Trade Finance, Office of International Monetary Policy, Office of Financial Stability, Import-Export Bank, Exchange Stabilization Fund, Working Group on Financial Markets, Plunge Protection Team, Federal Trade Commission (FTC), National Credit Union Administration (NCUA), Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC), Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council (FFIEC), Federal Housing Finance Board (FHFB), United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), and an Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO).
If we had just passed the Revenue Act of 1913, Securities Act of 1933, Securities Exchange Act of 1934, Banking Act of 1935, Trust Indenture Act of 1939, Investment Company Act of 1940, Investment Advisors Act of 1940, Employment Act of 1946, Bank Holding Company Act of 1956, 1970, Commodity Exchange Act of 1970, Securities Investor Protection Act of 1970, Housing and Community Development Act of 1974, Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975, Financial Institutions Regulatory and Interest Rate Control Act of 1978, International Banking Act of 1978, Full Employment and Balanced Growth Act of 1978, Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982, Plaza Accord of 1985, Lourve Accord of 1987, Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act of 1989, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation Improvement Act of 1991, Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992, National Securities Markets Improvement Act of 1996, Regulation Fair Disclosure Rule of 2000, Uniform Securities Act of 1956, 1985, 1988 and 2002, Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, Regulation National Market System Rule of 2005, and the Community Re-Investment Act of 1994, we could have avoided all of this.
O wait. We did.
And what's wrong with outsourcing?
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Eccentric Opinion
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