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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 12, 2015 11:00 PM |
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I don't know any good game where last difficulty level isn't backed by AI big cheating. However the hard thing is to well hide this cheating mechanism. So long, the game you are recreating has been played for 15 years, people know all tricks and right now, even the 200% level in vanilla is very disappointing, not the slightest challenge.
I'm not saying that you should definitely go for cheating, but personally I would prefer a cheating and challenging AI than a promised no cheating AI but never any close to correct performance. Also intelligent cheating is not giving thousand resources or free creatures, but the skills and spells helping AI to keep those creatures alive, imo.
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AVS
Hired Hero
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posted December 13, 2015 12:59 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I'm not saying that you should definitely go for cheating, but personally I would prefer a cheating and challenging AI than a promised no cheating AI but never any close to correct performance. Also intelligent cheating is not giving thousand resources or free creatures, but the skills and spells helping AI to keep those creatures alive, imo.
There is no way to hide somthing in VCMI - it is OpenSource 
I prefere to be honest with players and distinguish between AI implementation and additions making game more challenging.
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valgaav
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 13, 2015 02:34 AM |
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Edited by valgaav at 02:54, 13 Dec 2015.
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Warmonger said:
This is already implemented as a part of original difficulty mechanics.
I meant a bonus on a daily basis or bonus to whatever AI finds/gets from mines/piles. H3 difficulty levels are really not fun as far as AI goes, it makes any difference only for small maps, and the way it works is more a start handicap to human player then bonus for AI.
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This is quite difficult, AI in VCMI plays full battles just like regular player.
Give AI extra primary skills (fe. double them), unlimited mana when in battle with neutrals. This will result in less unit loses. This should be easy to add ?
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Good god, who cares? How many times AI will make sensible use of spells that could change anything?
So the plan is for AI to always stay like that? Spells could have some value points for AI just like creatures have. Checking this value with spell power and of course magic mastery and you can get an AI that will at least use good spells.
Salamandre said:
AI heroes should get in battle all magical skills at expert level, no matter if they are all removed after battle. This will solve the minimal loses problem.
Agreed, as I said earlier bonus to primary skills would also minimize loses.
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AI heroes should get daily experience (5% or 10% of the level they are)
Bad idea as this could work in a defective way on some maps. I think a bonus to earned experienced is better. For example 30% more on AI fights, picked up chest etc.
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AI heroes should get every day ~10% to movement.
Bonus to movement points should be considered only if human players are not in certain days of reach, when they are close it should have normal values.
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AI heroes should get a random primary skill every x days (in Conquistador it is every day).
Same as with exp, bad idea.
Quote:
I don't know any good game where last difficulty level isn't backed by AI big cheating. However the hard thing is to well hide this cheating mechanism. So long, the game you are recreating has been played for 15 years, people know all tricks and right now, even the 200% level in vanilla is very disappointing, not the slightest challenge.
I fully agree.
AVS said:
"No AI cheating" is one of VCMI main design guidelines. Once scripting will be implemented any such things could be implemented as a mod.
Making a good enjoyable non cheating AI is a hard to do or I dare to say impossible task. H3 is just to complex game for that. You cannot make AI players plan days ahead what it's going to do and have goals like get dragons this day in a way as good as human does it. Same goes for clearing neutrals, using heroes chains etc. Ai just has to cheat to be any fun for experienced players. However such cheats should not be obvious to the player.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 13, 2015 02:49 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 07:42, 13 Dec 2015.
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Other turn based strategy game designers have learned it the hard way, that is, when playing against the computer, the player doesn't want to lose anyway, he'll reload the game if he loses and picks another tactic. Worth knowing that the player never wants to lose, or so people like Sid Meier tells us. But I think the player wants to lose, not because he likes to lose, but I think he wants to lose, re-load the same game and give it a new try simply because he learns something from it and he doesn't lose anything by reloading the game.
If you want to create a challenging AI, try to combine it with less ability to reload games. It's amazing how many times people reload games without even being aware that they are doing that, and by the end of the game they say "This was too easy", but the truth is they reloaded the game, probably 15-20 times and corrected a few mistakes.
If the save ability is completely removed (or only allowed to save for the sake of continuing every time the game is restarted from windows desktop) the game objects gets a whole new value. If there is a sword on the map and another item at a different location and you're not sure what to pick up, those two objects gets more "value" when the player can't save and reload. He'll have to consider every object more seriously, and thereby he'll appreciate every object better too, and the game becomes more fun.
If you give the player the ability to save only one time per game, he'll just become frustrated and will try to find a way to save more often, it's better to remove it completely.
You could also have the game automatically save state changes in a game, and auto load, with no ability for the user to pick on his own when to save or load other than when the game starts, it automatically gets to where he was if he chooses to load last game.
Alternatively, have objects one can visit and save a game only when inside those objects.
I guess one can say that players do not really win games, they exercise self scrutiny as they play by saving the game before risk making decisions, and then correcting the mistake if it occurs by loading it back, and they always have to win the game because of this progressive self scrutiny correction they exercise.
Furthermore, according to Sid (I remember he said this) is that player's will shut down the game and abandon it if they can't win (That is, refuse to play it). The AI should be designed to fit the skill of the player, it doesn't have to be ultimate of the ultimate.
Inexperienced game designers always seek to create the ultimate unbeatable AI, and serious experienced game designers like Sid have learned through experience over the years that the AI have to be designed to be somewhat more stupid than they could have done it.
Personally I would say it is incompatible or mutually exclusive to have a dynamic game with an ultimate AI, the ultimate AI will render any tactic useless and boring as the AI would always pick the better. By leaving the AI at a somewhat mentally retarded level, the player can play and experience with tactics that would not otherwise be possible to do.
The whole point about putting things into a game is to let the player play with those things, if the computer is smart enough to avoid 90% of all things in the game and still win, the point of the game falls to the ground.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted December 24, 2015 04:16 PM |
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 02, 2016 09:52 AM |
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Dairy
Known Hero
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posted January 02, 2016 02:41 PM |
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Edited by Dairy at 14:41, 02 Jan 2016.
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Warmogner, that's really nice to hear !
Love the tons of bugfixes being done.
Still, there is one guestion bothering me way too much. Are you, for example, making everything so it works exactly like it is in original Heroes ?
For example - is AI working (will in future work) exactly like in original Heroes 3 ?
Because, I don't know if you know how it works, if you've seen the strings/code which is making the behavior of computer player ?
Everything else, like movement calculation, spells - damage calculation with spell power, unit specials or the way the game handles/calculates special weeks or other random stuff.
Does VCMI takes these from the original files, or you really did recode the whole game into VCMI and it takes just grahpics ?
Sorry to bother you with this kind of stuff or if you already answered it somewhere.
Thanks in advance !
Good job and good luck, looking forward for the complete 1.00v
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 03, 2016 08:14 AM |
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Quote:
For example - is AI working (will in future work) exactly like in original Heroes 3 ?
The AI i completely different and based on other principles. It's also quite unique design for computer games, overall.
Quote:
Does VCMI takes these from the original files, or you really did recode the whole game into VCMI and it takes just grahpics ?
Everything from VCMI was coded from scratch, closely recreating OH3 mechanics.
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looking forward for the complete 1.00v
Nobody, never announced that v1.00 equals "complete". Where do you guys get this idea from?
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Winston
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2016 03:20 AM |
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So is the AI going to be much better than the original game?
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted January 10, 2016 09:35 AM |
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Yes. New AI will be more smart and give better challenge at higher difficulties.
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Winston
Known Hero
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posted January 11, 2016 04:52 AM |
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zmudziak22 said:
Yes. New AI will be more smart and give better challenge at higher difficulties.
Any examples of how it will be smarter? I'm looking forward to an ai that isn't just given more resources and cheats.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 19, 2016 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
Any examples of how it will be smarter? I'm looking forward to an ai that isn't just given more resources and cheats.
AI understands logical consequence of objectives and plans a strategy on its own. Also, it's based on fuzzy logic rather than factoring, which makes it less predictable from human's point of view.
We also would like to have mechanism for AI to understand objects from mods.
Keep in mind that current AI is far from complete.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2016 10:31 AM |
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Warmonger said:
Keep in mind that current AI is far from complete.
VCMI AI will become Artifical Intelligence eventually, and will destroy humans one day as Skynet.dll.
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AVS
Hired Hero
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posted January 19, 2016 02:37 PM |
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Warmonger said:
AI understands logical consequence of objectives and plans a strategy on its own. Also, it's based on fuzzy logic rather than factoring, which makes it less predictable from human's point of view.
Fuzzy logic does not make AI less predictable, it just make algorithms more abstract. Fuzzy AI behave exactly same in same situations.
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SXX
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 20, 2016 02:49 AM |
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AVS said:
Fuzzy logic does not make AI less predictable, it just make algorithms more abstract. Fuzzy AI behave exactly same in same situations.
But it's make it easier to create different AI behavior profiles. Isn't it? 
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 20, 2016 07:46 AM |
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Quote:
Fuzzy AI behave exactly same in same situations.
But it allows AI to act very differently in slightly different situation. Fuzy logic is sensitive to small changes, unlike binary logic.
I don't say it's not deterministic, I claim it's unpredictable from player's perspective.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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AVS
Hired Hero
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posted January 20, 2016 09:03 AM |
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SXX said:
But it's make it easier to create different AI behavior profiles. Isn't it?
We are talking about is fuzzy AI more of less predictable.
Warmonger said:
But it allows AI to act very differently in slightly different situation. Fuzy logic is sensitive to small changes, unlike binary logic.
I don't say it's not dterministicl, I claim it's unpredictable from player's perspective.
Still disagree. Fuzzy AI will behave same (more likely) or slightly different in slightly different situation.
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yami
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 04, 2016 03:20 PM |
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Edited by yami at 15:23, 04 Feb 2016.
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Hey,
i can give you a quick feedback on VCMI.
1. i can not use WOG Options from here - i just click and they do not open:
http://i.imgur.com/m3E1Nh9.png
2. i can not create random map like that:
http://i.imgur.com/bLhqqRO.png
http://i.imgur.com/drJcpvn.png
or like that: http://i.imgur.com/trIYSel.png
or like that: http://i.imgur.com/wNqyRsl.png
3. sometimes when i create random map it crashes and says: "file was created"
but i do not know name of that file - so i won't post it here :/
4.
polish translation is not good here:
http://i.imgur.com/bLlcvr6.png
but here it is ok:
http://i.imgur.com/rztiMHP.png
i wonder why?
5. random maps give too many free stuff:
http://i.imgur.com/JiRYT6E.png
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2016 03:35 PM |
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yami said:
Hey,
1. i can not use WOG Options from here - i just click and they do not open:
http://i.imgur.com/m3E1Nh9.png
Its just a pic from your WOG installation. If you would use VCMI on clean SOD install, this WOG button will not be shown, as i remember.
yami said:
2. i can not create random map like that:
http://i.imgur.com/bLhqqRO.png
http://i.imgur.com/drJcpvn.png
or like that: http://i.imgur.com/trIYSel.png
or like that: http://i.imgur.com/wNqyRsl.png
There are no such map templates for random map generator yet.
They are made in JSON format and contain number of players, size and etc.
This is a task for community and those who want to help. I made only one template still
yami said:
3. sometimes when i create random map it crashes and says: "file was created"
but i do not know name of that file - so i won't post it here :/
Snow happens sometimes.
yami said:
4.
polish translation is not good here:
http://i.imgur.com/bLlcvr6.png
but here it is ok:
http://i.imgur.com/rztiMHP.png
i wonder why?
It's a task for polish fans, i think.
VCMI only takes texts from standard LODs coming with installation of HMM3 i think. But not 100% sure.
yami said:
5. random maps give too many free stuff:
http://i.imgur.com/JiRYT6E.png
It's again question for templates for RMG. There quantity of guards is set and treasures for zone.
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yami
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 04, 2016 05:52 PM |
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Macron1 said:
yami said:
Hey,
1. i can not use WOG Options from here - i just click and they do not open:
http://i.imgur.com/m3E1Nh9.png
Its just a pic from your WOG installation. If you would use VCMI on clean SOD install, this WOG button will not be shown, as i remember.
Maybe u are right, still it would be nice if that option worked the same way like in wog version.
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