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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 12, 2009 11:56 PM |
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No rush  Tomorrow I also have to finish my remaining games with albo and storm giant for the temple.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 14, 2009 09:40 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 21:41, 14 Dec 2009.
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Game #2 Chaos Cup vs. Clayman just completed.
Clayman won.
Results so far = 1-1
Again no replay is needed since it was pretty onesided. No actual battle tactics or great thinking was required. He got ring of speed. I got NO defense arts in my group. So even with Expert Enlightenment I had only 2 defense.. and even with expert sorcery my hero didnt come any faster then his.. I am guessing the Speed Ring negated that.
So as we all know, dungeon has to stay alive to beable to cast spells... and no defense and sorcery not working = gg.
I do still like this version, even tho I lost!  Hopefully our game #3 will be more evenly matched so some actual skill and thinking can come into play.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 14, 2009 09:46 PM |
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No defense in all three areas? How did you do that? 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elias_Maluco
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 14, 2009 09:51 PM |
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Perhaps it would be interesting to do a less chaotic version of chaos map where those artifact sets would not be random but pre-defined, and per town.
I mean: each town would always have the same 3 artifact sets to choose from. Dont even know if its possible to script that, but this way we could achieve a much better balance in the map.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 14, 2009 09:51 PM |
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1 Area had +2 defense sheild but the rest of the artifacts were worthless.. the area I chose had the negate magic resistance staff, celerity ring +Luck+Morale helm, and figured since I was casting magic that making sure he didnt resist it ever would be more beneficial then 2 more defence. As it was he was clearing entire stacks when he hit.. so 2 or 3 more defense was not gonna change that. Also never once was Defense skill offered.
Since we are on the topic of the artifact area... is there special scripting used there?
I have noticed that NEVER in any of the games I have played , have I ever seen a super great area with a ton of great arts.. there are always couple good ones and rest junk and then in other areas couple good and rest junk.. or Never have I seen any comboes in 1 area.. they always seem to be split up in each seperate area.. or has it just been my bad dumb luck that I never get the Mega Great area?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 14, 2009 10:10 PM |
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No scripts. And I certainly do not like the idea of predetermined arties, might as well ban them completely. No fun either way.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elias_Maluco
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 14, 2009 10:24 PM |
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Quote:
No scripts. And I certainly do not like the idea of predetermined arties, might as well ban them completely. No fun either way.
Perhaps is a bit boring, but is the only way I see to achieve a more balanced duel map, by carefully choosing 3 good artifact sets for each town. I like the chaos map much better then the regular one, but it seems that great artifact set against a poor one sets can pretty much decide the battle.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 14, 2009 10:32 PM |
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The chance to have a bad selection of arties is very low with 3 areas, never happened to me. Either way it's *supposed* to be chaotic, if you want more balanced you play the other. As it is you can't have decent balance without bans.
Yet.. I can't really complain with the balance of the matches I played in chaos. I know that theoretically it's the least balanced version yet the majority of my games have been close.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 14, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 22:39, 14 Dec 2009.
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Not to mention, I cant remember the last time I played Dungeon.  I maybe have 5 total games in my history So I shouldnt be suprised to lose with them hahaha. Anyways... Clayman needs to pray I get Dungeon again, so he has a chance Otherwise I am bringing all my vengeance to the 3rd game!!!! Muhahahahaha
But I disagree with Elvin.. I think Chaos is more balanced, for the simple reason, that there are more options and counters. THe more artifacts adds to the stats and possible different strategies that open up possibilities.. in other version you are more likely to have your hands tied.
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Elias_Maluco
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 14, 2009 10:42 PM |
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Quote:
The chance to have a bad selection of arties is very low with 3 areas, never happened to me. Either way it's *supposed* to be chaotic, if you want more balanced you play the other. As it is you can't have decent balance without bans.
Yet.. I can't really complain with the balance of the matches I played in chaos. I know that theoretically it's the least balanced version yet the majority of my games have been close.
Well, I did won against you the other day. And mostly because I had an awesome set of artifacts (and had good luck leveling) that made me a virtually unbeatable warlock.
Perhaps the chance of having a poor selection is low, but maybe the problem is that, sometimes, you can get a selection that is just too good.
I know is supposed to be chaotic, but sometimes it seems more balanced than the regular map. And thats because, since you dont need to use the money to buy artifacts, you can spent it on mentor to fix the bad luck you might had leveling. Both players will always have some good itens, while on the regular map is easier to end up basically naked because of too much spending on mentor or bad selection at both stores.
The only problem is when a player get a set that is too powerful, and that could be avoided with the 3 pre-determined sets. But that´s just my personal opinion.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 15, 2009 12:00 AM |
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The Chaos map isn't more balanced. It simply gives people more Aces up your sleeves which you would usually have to think/prepare for (=giving you easy advantages). In a way it's like riding a bicycle with support wheels and a motor compared to a normal bycicle. The other one is fairly easy to "master" and is a lot less demanding while the other one... well you usually get a few bruises and have a few accidents before you get the hang of it. But if you don't give up in the end you'll be riding a bicycle all on your own .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 15, 2009 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 00:37, 15 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
The Chaos map isn't more balanced. It simply gives people more Aces up your sleeves... -Azagal
Quote:
Chaos is more balanced, for the simple reason, that there are more options and counters... -Jinxer
Well you pretty much said exactly what I said
Duels fundamentally are supposed to be based on the players Battle Skills... Battle Thinking... Battle Knowledge... Battle Strategy... the regular map puts way to much focus on all the OUT of battle stuff... Whereas the Chaos map puts a little MORE focus back to the actual battle itself... ( i.e. more aces up sleeve, more counters, more strategy and thinking to deal with more depth IN battle) Still not perfect but better.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 15, 2009 12:42 AM |
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It's funny you know... when I wrote the "more Aces up your sleeves line" I was pretty sure I didn't need to explain it any further and I wrote it without the "(..)" but then when I read it over again I remembered I was talking to you so I added them to be extra clear. And I still failed you. I'm sorry Jinxer.
But let's for a moment say that the "givng you easy advantages" wasn't clear enough. How is giving you Aces up your sleeves the same as giving you a counter? The first one is something you didn't do anything for and it'll help you when you need it while the second is something you thought of/prepared in order to get help. Which solution requires more skill? The Ace up your sleeve or counter?
Jinxer the artifacts are fun and make for enjoyable games but they certainly don't make for the more balanced ones. For example getting +9 SP from 2 artifacts alone is not "giving your more options" and it certainly isn't a "counter". It simply makes an good Warlock overkill.
The thing is that the Artifacts have an potential to tilt the scales of balance way too far to one side if you compare it to a game without artifacts where your leveling choices (a process you have infinitely more controle over than over what artefacts you end up with). Ergo it is not more balanced. It's not an opinion, it's an objective analysis.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted December 15, 2009 12:46 AM |
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All I can add is that we need to unban the currently banned spells. I wanna have some nice COTN/armageddon spam next time 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 15, 2009 12:54 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 00:59, 15 Dec 2009.
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Well believe it or not.. when you put it that way.. I do see your point.. And can kind of agree to your basic principle..
Yes its possible for the game to become crazy unbalanced.. But on the flip side..with original map, when your not offered certain skills or perks and have to trade all your money trying for the certain perks you NEED to defend your opponent, and have no money left to buy artifacts and your stats are soo silly low that you cannot mount a serious battle, your hands can be tied sometimes.
To be honest, the only thing the original map is lacking is more money... if had alot more money where could buy more artifacts and have enough to properly mentor your hero to what you want and know you need, then I would agree that it would be based on the players skill in creating his Hero. But as it is.. there is ALOT left to chance on weather you get the skill/perks. If one gets them first time thru and can spend all money on arts, and other guy doesnt get lucky, and has to spend alot on mentor, and cant buy arts.. then that is just as unbalanced as the chaos map then.
For example: I would suggest making unlimited money that can use buying army, and using mentor etc.. then when you use portal to go to artifact merchant the money can reset to a set amount that allows for buying X amount of arts.. equal to both sides. This would leave less to chance.. and put the focus back into the battles. Just a thought.
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Elias_Maluco
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 15, 2009 01:01 AM |
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Quote:
But on the flip side..with original map, when your not offered certain skills or perks and have to trade all your money trying for the certain perks you NEED to defend your opponent, and have no money left to buy artifacts and your stats are soo silly low that you cannot mount a serious battle, your hands can be tied sometimes.
Thats pretty much what I was trying to say.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 15, 2009 01:41 AM |
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If you waste too much money on mentor then you probably deserve to lose. Some perks are very important sure but gambling away half your army's money shows bad judgement. And we are back full circle debating skills
I will reiterate. In my hundreds of duels there were few times that I could not get my key perks, quite few. I do not mean having everything I wanted, just the key stuff. A good number of those I did miss them was because I felt compelled to get a rare skill or opened many skill trees and that messed with my plans. Other times I got more arties than I should leaving me with very few tries in the mentor.
Yet when I picked my skills carefully and did not overspend on artifacts the times I missed crucial perks were a rarity and I'm sure same goes to Nat or Tower - I mean you can see them get the same skills every time 
Reason why I made the chaos version as it is was to simplify things, avoid micromanagement as much as possible. The original is by no means arena but a lot depends on on meticulous management. If I allow more gold that automatically means people buy more artifacts which will in turn mess with the balance. For instance dungeon often skips army to buy extra artifacts, that would only make matters worse.
In chaos you won't even bother to wrack your brains over such stuff, all get same amount of arties and you can't mess up if you wanted to. Easier and faster to play but less like the actual game where preparation is a key aspect.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 15, 2009 02:04 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 02:07, 15 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
. And we are back full circle debating skills
Yes indeed.. so I will stop debating... Best to just agree to disagree.. We just like 2 different styles of playing. I just dont like the Duel style. Plain and simple.. I can admit that. Well atleast not the concept of how the duels are being done now. For example, if you take a game on MasterMind and remove the creeping and just have the same heroes levels and artifacts and fight the final battle, that is my idea of cool Duel!!
But anyways, I can say I tried it.. but doubt I ever will again, I will leave it to those who enjoy such things To each there own, I can respect that.
Cheers.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 15, 2009 03:56 AM |
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I'm 2-2 with Pera right now.
1st game was my Sylvan vs his Fortress
I had the nice haste+might combo, but Pera+Fortress intimidated me and I decided to delay taking light in case I was offered War Machines for the massive killing. It wasn't popping up so halfway through I decided I would take light when it was next offered, but it wasn't popping up anymore so I just took destructive near the end and went with it. Can't be too upset about it since I was leveling riskily. It was a safe win for him:
http://www.mediafire.com/?xd4kmngnvlw
2nd game was my Sylvan vs his Haven
Didn't have good light combos so went phoenix+fireball. He quickly dispatched my druids and bought ele protections anyway (I'm too predictable) and it was another safe win for him:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5izlddkwozd
3rd game was my Inferno vs his Stronghold
Was a typical Inferno vs Stronghold match. My 5 luck and soldier's luck didn't nearly pay off, but my puppets weren't resisted so I came through:
http://www.mediafire.com/?czkmnl4z2zc
4th game was my Haven vs his Academy
My light vs his dark. Terrain can be pivotal in this match up and I ended up with a nice clear field. Celerity + haste + some divine guidances gave me a nice swift army and I got a safe win:
http://www.mediafire.com/?zitiolm4hzf
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted December 15, 2009 08:15 AM |
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Elvin pretty much explained how things are... You must split your money between mentor, troops and artifacts, not get all the best skills you want, all the best artifacts and buy all troops, cause in that case you might as well go for pre-built heroes like in ubi duels, which are really boring.
I get it, you want things as simple as possible Jinxer, but that leads to big imbalances. For instance, if one would get crappy artifacts and one would get super artifacts, there would be no way for him to close the power gap, cause skills would be best for both, armies would be 100% there, and the luckier would win. And getting a good build isn't the lucky draw you make it sound, unless you want the impossible(many 2% skills, like defense with dungeon , which might not pop even in real game).
Now, I think Elvin could create a Stupid Simple Duel Map Edition, just like you want with infinite money, but you would probably dislike that even more than these ones.
LE:
I have created the following online strike-out generator which suits this tournament perfectly: CLICK HERE!
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This thread is pages long: 
