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| Thread: Obesity (Long series of images within) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 11:10 PM |
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Quote:
What's so different with eating sweets than with smoking?
Only really a small difference. Occasional snacks aren't deadly if they are used reponsibly.
Occasional smoking still raises cancer rates and pumps your lungs full of poisons and tar.
Irresponsible eating and smoking however are both serious health issues for people worldwide, but particularly North America for the former.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 14, 2009 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
Irresponsible eating and smoking however are both serious health issues for people worldwide
Africa is officially no longer part of the world!
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Keksimaton
Promising
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Talk to the hand
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posted August 14, 2009 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
But fat people don't impose "second-hand fat" on other people.
Check this out. You'll be amazed.
Yo! Ding-dong, man! Ding-dong, ding-dong yo!
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 14, 2009 11:15 PM |
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@Joker:
They shouldn't have done it with smoking to begin with. Societal pressure and initiative was the main cause for the decline of smoking anyway, not the government.
And besides, there is a difference. Going along with Dagoth, because smoking is inherently bad, and food isn't. If you take a single puff of a cigarette, even though it's effect would be infinitesimal, it is still bad for you. A bite of a Snickers bar, depending on what else you ate for that day, could actually be good for you. Now you could argue that things like trans fat are bad for you, but trace amounts of that exist in tons of things.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 14, 2009 11:27 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Irresponsible eating and smoking however are both serious health issues for people worldwide
Africa is officially no longer part of the world!
Africa has some fairly successful countries. There are spots on the continent where they are able to overeat (though yes, the majority of the continent has definite issues with food).
Smoking even more common than overeating however throughout most of the world.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 14, 2009 11:31 PM |
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I know about the african lions and that sometimes people prefer smoking (or other addictive things) to a decent meal, there. I jested merely 
Personally I think irresponsibl is a luxury and shouldn't really be considered a problem...
I'm sorry if it sounded serious.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 09:26 AM |
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Fat isn't fat and sugar isn't sugar.
There are different qualities of the stuff and the problem is that all that sugar i candys and all the fat in fast food is pretty bad for your health.
Apart of that it's habit forming.
Now, let's see, smoking isn't forbidden, though. And instead of forcing them to print the ingredients onto the box, they print some stuff like smoking makes impotent. PLus, high taxes.
Why would it be wrong to do the same with sweets and fat, I wonder? I still haven't got an answer to that?
I mean, seriously, having to watch a 140 kg monster wolfing down a Doubleburger and 2 Mars bars, while waiting for the bus, is aesthetically a lot worse than having to endure that same guy smoking.
In any case both are damaging their health, and while no one is forbidding it to them, there has pressure to be applied - and Mvass, stop that social pressure stuff - there is no social pressure without governmental decisions showing the direction.
Again, don't forget the habit forming effect sugar has. Don't forget either, that lots of sugar are in stuff that doesn't taste so sweet - ketchup, for example.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 10:11 AM |
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Quote:
there is no social pressure without governmental decisions showing the direction
I hope you're not serious. You don't mean to imply that every social pressure is a result of government decisions.
Also, as I explained earlier, smoking is bad for other people's health too. Eating junk food isn't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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alcibiades
Honorable
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of Gold Dragons
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posted August 15, 2009 11:46 AM |
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One of the problems is that we don't know with scientific certainty what it really is that makes people overweight. Some claim it's eating too much fat food, others say it's eating too much simple carbohydrates (like suger).
There's not a lot of people who question that smoking causes cancer. That makes it easier to make laws and rules.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 11:47 AM |
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Look, this is all completely irrelevant.
Society is slightly more than just a couple of people living randomly together. One of the basic foundations of society is to WARN its members of dangers, and it doesn't play any role here whether it's a danger for the whole or a group or individuals.
If, therefore a danger is perceived for the individual, then the question isn't whether to forbid it or not, he question is whether to WARN and INFORM people about it.
Moreover, society has to make sure that those who do NOT heed the warnings and get in trouble because of that can be handled with. For this, it's a bit impractical to start analyzing the life of people, if, when they become sick, that sickness is a consequence of not heeding the warnings (personal fault) or just bad luck or something else.
Therefore strategies are twofold:
1) Warning and information campaigns
2) Taxes on stuff; this is an advance payment for the consequences not heeding the warnings may have and to finance information campaigns; whether a society misuses that money for other things isn't changing the fact that it is just right to do it.
Note, than in no way personal freedom is inhibited.
If you come up with the argument of smoking would be dangerous for non-smokers, then I ca only say that neither 1) nor 2) do anything to prohibit this. THIS thing is covered by PROHIBITING smoking in public areas, clear, simple and easy, and I cannot remember me demanding a general prohibtion of eating junk-food in the public.
So, frankly, I have no idea what exactly you (everyone) are discussing about. NO amount of "public pressure" whatever that beast is supposed to be, can force a smoker NOT to smoke in public areas, if it's legally allowed. I've been a smoker long enough myself to know that.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 15, 2009 11:53 AM |
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Though it maybe unpleasant for some to look at, not many people have died or gotten sick off of 'secondhand fat'. While plenty have from 'secondhand smoke'. I am still considered 'big', even though I've dropped a LOT of weight. Compairing the two is not only comical it is downright hillarious. Of course some people will always think they know what is best for everybody else. Heaven help anybody who tries to tell THEM what to do though.
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Azagal
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posted August 15, 2009 12:31 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 12:33, 15 Aug 2009.
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I really tried to understand this thread but I got lost in the argument smoking vs. sugar so I'll just start with Blizz first question.
Quote:
Asia is doing something that other people really should be doing. Obesity has a plethora of health concerns attached to it, more so than the commonly known heart problems, so this is something that really should change. Question is, how the hell do we do it?
Having spent the past 10 years of my life in both Korea and Japan I can say that they are so slim because they simply eat completely different food than the west. Apart from that they usually eat a lot more moderate than their western counterparts (not that they eat little, they simply don't eat too much). The asian cuisine is also a lot healthier and doesn't contain that much "heavy" stuff.
It's pretty much the cultural difference that has saved the east from letting themselves go and just feed. The west simply has different eating habbits. They eat a lot of heavily fat containing food and a large percentage of the people don't take the time to actually cook a real meal anymore. So it's just a lot of microwave garbage, chips, ordered pizza, etc. you get the picture. The trend gets worse the lower the income of people is (eventhough you don't need a lot of money in order to eat good and healthy).
But in the end you can eat whatever you want aslong as you don't overdo it. The dosis makes the poison. And if all that is available to you is junk food then it's high time you start changeing your eating habbits. Ultimately there is nothing you can do to "prevent" people from getting fat since it's up to them alone wether to get fat.
But in my opinion overweight is simply a failure of will. Nobody has to be fat (except for people who have some sort of sickness that makes you fat should that exist) and anybody who wants to be slim can be slim. It's just too much "work" for some too not get fat so they just feed and forget about the consequences.
EDIT: Apart from that am I the only that thinks that it's incredibly decadent that we have more overweight people than underweight people in the world for some time now? Disgusting...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 01:17 PM |
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Some people are really naive - a burger or a snickers isn't growing on trees, it's factory-produced, and lots of people are earning a lot of money to develop stuff to eat and dring that is "tasty", which means, pleasant to the taste buds.
Most fruit is tasty for the taste buds as well, that's why so many artificial flavors are fruit flavors.
Anyway. Our capitalist society is allowing the development of food that has no nutrition value, but is jut pleasant for the taste buds.
Whether you like that or not, that's not much different from a drug, especially if they are habit forming and have adverse health effects.
In other words, sweets and fast food is no nutrition it's "LUST food" because it doesn't have the purpose to feed people. As such it's dangerous - if left to their taste buds, people will eat solely that stuff and die - or is there any other reason why children are kept from eating too much of that stuff.
For Mytical's sake I'll repeat, that the warnings and taxes on cigarettes do nothng to protect people from secondry smoking - that's the ban on smoking in public areas. In other words - to ban the danger of secondary smoking you do not need warnings and taxes, you just need a ban on public smoking.
I repeat, a ban on public eating isn't the issue here, so whether smoking is dangerous for others and eating junk is not, is completely irrelevant, because taxes and warnings are supposed to reduce the consumption and have less smokers and tobacco consumed.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 15, 2009 01:33 PM |
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Let me get my hip boots on, it is getting a bit deep in here. Lol I can see it now, a 'Demolition Man' future. "Everything that is not good for you is deemed bad, therefore illegal." Again, my point. Some people just know what is best for other people (according to them). While were at it tax salt and other spices. Hey lets tax water too, it can have pollutants in it that are bad for you. That salad can have pesticides, lets tax it too! While were at it, that clothing makes you look weird, lets tax all but the government approved garments!
 ok I will behave, and have a good long laugh.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 03:34 PM |
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Quote:
(except for people who have some sort of sickness that makes you fat should that exist)
There are many kinds of diseases that can do so. Hashimoto's disease for example.
In Poland, there aren't that many fat people. Most are slim, and 9 out of 10 girls are too slim for my taste 
the fun part is when you can't gain weight. In high school, I weighted 55 kg. Took me a good while, a ton of food, lots of iron will and lots of gym to reach 72 kg I weight now. The positive side is that I can eat whatever I like, as much as I can bear, and I never gain weight at all, unless it's a complex weight-gaining diet with a proper set of heavy gym exercises. My knees are failing though so I am prohibited from gaining weight. No prob.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 15, 2009 03:46 PM |
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Very Good Topic
This is an excellent topic of discussion. I wish I knew how to approach it. I haven't the slightest idea how to combat this issue. I pay attention to every report and I wonder if we're doing the right thing for it. I wonder how legitimate our methods are. I think it was a good start by removing soda and snack vending machines from our children schools.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 05:12 PM |
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Quote:
Let me get my hip boots on, it is getting a bit deep in here. Lol I can see it now, a 'Demolition Man' future. "Everything that is not good for you is deemed bad, therefore illegal." Again, my point. Some people just know what is best for other people (according to them). While were at it tax salt and other spices. Hey lets tax water too, it can have pollutants in it that are bad for you. That salad can have pesticides, lets tax it too! While were at it, that clothing makes you look weird, lets tax all but the government approved garments!
ok I will behave, and have a good long laugh.
I'm getting really pissed right now: can you show me ANY post of mine where "ILLEGAL" is in?
So what sense makes this post? Don't you bother anymore to read posts? Are you ill-willing by nature? Doesn't it matter anymore what people are writing? What?
What the HELL is wrong with you?
Worse, that post is dumb, because it misses one of the main points - that things are made for being bought. Pollutants in water, for example, may have a lot of reasons, but they are not put into it to make you drink more. See the difference?
Probably not.
Who cares.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 15, 2009 05:40 PM |
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@Joker:
The primary motivating force behind wise decisions has rested on the shoulders of the educators; whether in school or from other guardians. A simple observation of when something starts to get bad reputation and then when a law comes about will show that.
The following paragraph may sound self-explanatory, but I'll write it out regardless. Your perspective is saturated with an immensely low opinion of a person's ability to make decisions. Pleasure is essential to any society functioning, because it's the reason we bother to do anything at all. But pleasure comes in many forms, and some of them are immediately gratifying, while others are may offer delayed or long-term gratification. Yes, the market supplies sweets and fatty foods (to a certain extent I am happily among the buyers), but there is also healthy and produce foods on the market as well. Instant gratification is one potential pleasure, but long-term health is another potential pleasure. So people are manipulated by more than just the immediate effects, because we are beings that live in both the present as well as speculate on the future. If humans were incapable of making wise decisions, then the vast majority of Asia would not be in decent shape. They didn't develop wise eating habits because of government force, but simply because it evolved within their culture, and given enough time, the same thing can happen for us sloths over in Europe and the Americas. (Not that Asia is overall necessarily a better society, but diet is one thing that they excel at)
Sugar and fats and such can be habit forming, but this is a pretty weak argument considering everything is habit forming. I can say from first-hand experience that computer games can be very habit forming. For you, this is probably unconvincing since you're probably eager to put restrictions and enormous taxes on all of that too. Just the same, you have to ask yourself how far you're willing to go if you're going to restrict everything that is potentially habit forming.
Also, without any need for government intervention, much of the market already has been making efforts to create healthier foods. If I go to the supermarket, there are tons of different brands that offer wholesome foods, and that has increased in recent years, not the other way around. Simply because we've had a high increase in obesity in the last 20 years (at the same time we experienced a tech bubble... causation?) doesn't mean we can't shift again. Just look at a chart of the U.S. in 1989. Were they all fat? Of course not. Obesity rates were much lower, even though capitalism had existed in America for a long long time before 1989.
Finally, I have to ask myself if government can actually be a liability in a healthy society. I'm not aware of subsidies in Germany, but I do know in the U.S. that there are a lot of subsidies on the beef & pig industry. So the government is actually artificially aiding in the consumption of lots of less lean meats, while fruits & vegetables are more likely to have to fend for themselves. Poor little vegetables  . So perhaps less intervention, not more, would be helpful.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 15, 2009 07:51 PM |
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How to overcome it? Quite simple, but very harsh: refuse health social cover to people:
1) Infected by AIDS because unprotected sex.
2) Cancer due to smoking
3) Obesity illness due to bad nutrition because they choose to
We are all aware of where our action are leading. Why the society should pay for our ignorance and irresponsibility?
Yeah I know, sounds simple but it is not. But at least a slight compromise could be created. When it comes to "money", suddenly people pay attention.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2009 08:48 PM |
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JJ:
People know that eating too much junk food is bad for them. And they know what junk food is - we have nutrition facts printed on everything. They just don't care. And if they don't care about their own health, why should I?
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If you come up with the argument of smoking would be dangerous for non-smokers, then I ca only say that neither 1) nor 2) do anything to prohibit this.
2 imposes an increased cost on smokers. And society (without much government intervention!) has made it much more costly to be a smoker today than 50 years ago. 50 years ago, no one would have thought much if you would have chosen to smoke in an office building. But now you have to go outside (into the cold) during smoke breaks. And everyone glares at you when you smoke. And it works!
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if left to their taste buds, people will eat solely that stuff and die
I don't see how that's my problem.
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Eccentric Opinion
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