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| Thread: WoG 3.59 Developing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted January 07, 2010 02:41 PM |
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Yeah, I know that, and that's why I'm replacing them.
I also think, as a mapmaker more than a player, that the recoloured creatures suck.
Sure, it's great, that we can have new creatures, I mean, awesome. But better looking creatures would look much better.
I especially like the WoW creatures. I think they fit quite well to HoMM 3.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2010 02:59 PM |
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Why should they fit? The purpose of WoG is to give a chance to open new ways, not stick again and again to same habits.
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Era II mods and utilities
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted January 07, 2010 03:05 PM |
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Yes, I understand, but I meant, that creatures that look good, are much better than those that don't look.
Why should they fit? So that people would play the game. Do you think, that if every creature would be the same but recolorored, anyone would play the game? I mean, creatures that fit with other creaatures.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, not doing with the same thing over and over again.
I'm just saying, that recolored creatures suck. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2010 03:23 PM |
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 12:49 AM |
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Why should they fit? The purpose of WoG is to give a chance to open new ways, not stick again and again to same habits.
I'm reading this for the second time (at least) from you, so I think it's time somebody disagreed with you ;P.
Do know that there are players and modders with other oppinions .
The purpose of WoG was to make a fan *expansion pack* for Heroes III. Like AB or SoD. The main goal *wasn't* to give players and mapmakers modding tools/possibilities (actually in the beginning WoG almost didn't have those), but to introduce new features to the game, starting with new creatures. The game's full name is "Heroes of Might and Magic III In The Wake of Gods". Not "some" WoG as a standalone game. It's still Heroes of Might and Magic III.
In my opinion everything in WoG HAS to fit Heroes III.
And while I was in the WoG Team (or rather: while the WoG Team was working  ) the creators tried to make everything fit the game - the new creatures, locations (ok, so the palace of dreams wasn't a good idea), commanders, creature experience, etc. (I didn't like the original WoG campaing though - I wanted to see the new features in a STRATEGY game, not a strange RPG). Even today the new CoreWoG group - as far as I know - is also working on things that will fit an expansion for Heroes III - not make it into a different game.
That's why I really admire your work and magnificent skills in creating the "300" map as well as the comming "Stargate" map, but I don't really like them at all and I think I won't ever play them.
There are so many concepts that fit the Heroes / Might and Magic universe - the sea creatures, the pirates, the drows, the night elves (but I really prefer the "old" Grove concept, not the one Darklore is working on), even the infamous Forge town.
I would really like to see your skills in creating something in this field, especially if it was connected with the original HoMM-MM storyline (which I am a fanatic of).
But making "Heroes of Sparta", "Stargate of Might and Magic" or "Warcraft of Gods" is just unacceptable for me as a H3 WoG fan.
Of course, we can argue what does and what doesn't fit Heroes III. And almost every fan has his/her opinion. But the things you did is just crossing the Heroes III border and declaring independence ;P.
As for the recoloured creatures - well, they were a good idea at the time. When there were only a few modders, even less tools and players wanted new creatures in a Heroes III, recolouring the level 7 monsters and making their superior versions was actually a pretty good choice. Nowadays H3 WoG fans are more... "picky"? . In 3.57 times there was a declaration that WoG won't include any more recoloured monsters. They would at least have to be modified. There was also a concept to somehow redo the level 8 creatures - modify them at least. But as far, as I remember - the author(s) of those versions didn't agree for any changes. So we were kinda "stuck" with them. After 3.58 there were plans to use many MM7/8 creatures (the concept which actually was introduced first by me). However after the 3.58 patch the work on WoG became slower and slower. Slava got involved in other projects and eventually left the Team along with its "no.2" creator - Fnord. So for 5 years there was noone to actually add new creatures to the game. However my "New Upgrades" patch followed by Big Jocker's "Quicksilver" project started a trend of replacing some creatures with different ones (though that concept was first used even before WoG). That way players with different opinions about WoG may all be happy .
So - in conclusion - I do understand your approach, I do admire your skills, but I strongly disagree that "In the Wake of Gods" goal is to modify the game to such extent that its elements are no longer "Heroes III".
I - as a player, a fan and a modder - still want the game to be a Heroes III strategy. Not a Warcraft/Stargate RPG mix.
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted January 08, 2010 01:41 AM |
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Quote:
The purpose of WoG was to make a fan *expansion pack* for Heroes III. Like AB or SoD. The main goal *wasn't* to give players and mapmakers modding tools/possibilities (actually in the beginning WoG almost didn't have those), but to introduce new features to the game, starting with new creatures. The game's full name is "Heroes of Might and Magic III In The Wake of Gods". Not "some" WoG as a standalone game. It's still Heroes of Might and Magic III.
I must say, Acid, that u totally misunderstood the aim of the WoG. Slava told this several times, that wog adds a lot of various (and strange) options, but it also adds the main thing - an ability for player to *choose* what options he prefer to play with. Comparing to expansion, which contains a quite strict set of game rules, wog as mod adds a lot options, which can be (de)activated in any time, so in the end every player can form his own style of play.  New creatures (or new towns or new spells) is just a extension, which could disabled as any other rule.
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 03:32 AM |
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Actually that is not entirely true.
Yes, the customization was very important, but I wouldn't say it was the aim of WoG.
The first version of WoG (3.50) included: 8 level creatures, gods' emissaries, the dwellings, new neutral creatures, 3 artifacts, 2 hero specialties, destroying towns, the campaigns and ERM as a language (but aside from the campaigns - no scripts).
The first ERM scripts and wogification came with 3.55.
While the wogify menu allowing actual customization wasn't there until 3.57.
So as you see - the customization and playing as the player wishes is a rather "new" invention. Earlier the customization possibilities were only available to a few mapmakers - not to players.
While I do agree that the modifying the game was the cause why WoG was ever created, then "In the Wake of Gods" add-on as a whole, as an effort of the first WoG Team was meant to be an expansion with new features.
Oh and PS - just to clarify - the new creatures were never possible to "disable". They were meant to be in the game always. However from 3.57 in the WoGify menu player has the possibility to specify whether he wants some of the standard creatures replaced by WoG creatures or not.
So anyway - customization for the player is probably the greatest "advantage" or "feature", or even "the beauty" of WoG, but it wasn't the "aim". Still, there are many players who think that the best thing about WoG are the new creatures anyway .
All in all - whether the 3.58 features are customizable or not - they were all (with a few minor exceptions) designed to fit in Heroes III. Not to make it another game, not to make an RPG out of it, not to introduce options like "change the theme to Star Wars or Warcraft", but to enhance Heroes III, the original game. And that was my message concerning the aim of WoG.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2010 07:38 AM |
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Interesting points
But WoG team is gone, Core WoG is delaying, not a single WoG map (a real WoG) was done in the last 4 years (except some of my work and a very few chinese/russians impossible to translate). So we have to choose ourselves on how to develop it. I choose my way, if some dislike it, I can't do anything to please them. If we listen to anyone opinion, there is no way to broke limits and invent new worlds. And recreate the one which is already perfect is out of question for me. Now we can keep discussing, or go to work on something. I prefer the second option
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The main goal *wasn't* to give players and mapmakers modding tools/possibilities
LOL? Working on ERM help for 2 years was what then? 
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I would really like to see your skills in creating something in this field, especially if it was connected with the original HoMM-MM storyline (which I am a fanatic of).
In my sig you can find 3 100% fitting Heroes mechanics WoG maps (The Empire, Time of Prophecy and Alexander the great). I did already all which was possible in the given limits, after that I had to move on. Original story-line has no interest for me, I found much better stories to dig in, to anyone his taste. But if someone is willing to continue and make something interesting based on the original story-line, I will follow it with the greatest interest. I try to be open-minded, not some kind of fanatic.
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but I don't really like them at all and I think I won't ever play them.
As you wish. But it is a useless attitude, to jump on something before trying and give constructive feedback.
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Do know that there are players and modders with other opinions .
Modders? Where?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 08, 2010 09:59 AM |
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@Salamandre: look to the east, they're all hidden under the "iron curtain" again.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted January 08, 2010 10:51 AM |
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While the wogify menu allowing actual customization wasn't there until 3.57.
Well, may be. I joined the team on 3.58f and probaly earlier the aims were different, but from 3.58f there became exactly what i said (i had a long arguing with Slava about this).
As for mixing heroes with other game universes i dont see any bad thing in this, since for a long time no official (or even unofficial) addon doesnt extent original storyline, so it became quite dead. +I always liked to mix my favourite games.
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 12:13 PM |
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LOL? Working on ERM help for 2 years was what then?
ERM was the tool that made many of the current WoG features possible. So it was "rather important" . Still a tool can be used to make very diffferent objects.
But the ERM help was just a very nice addition. Not the purpose of WoG, nor its most important feature.
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I try to be open-minded, not some kind of fanatic.
Being open-minded doesn't mean you think everything is OK.
Being open-minded still obliges you to have your own opinion.
I am always open to new ideas and points of view, but I also try to make my opinion of them.
Besides that - being open-minded means also that you think there are other points of view, as good as yours.
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As you wish. But it is a useless attitude, to jump on something before trying and give constructive feedback.
I didn't "jump on" anything. I just said that I personally don't like it.
My point wasn't to say your work is bad. There are many players/fans that like your ideas so it's the best proof that your work has sense.
The thing why I did write was your constatnt stating what the purpose of WoG is.
I wish you all the best in your work and I hope you will make much more. But do know, that you are doing something that *wasn't* the purpose of WoG. As in mixing games/worlds/styles together.
The Heroes III world is not perfect. Actually I don't believe there's anything perfect. We can still add many things to this world, which fit in it and enhance the original game.
And this is the purpose of WoG. And this is the direction that I personally would like the fan additions to point. But that doesn't mean sth else musn't be created. Spin-offs also tend to be interesting and sometimes they even become more popular than the original. So - good luck.
and Darklore, about your previous post - Actually I did make a small overstatement. I see that from my words one can read that I think the new creatures/artifacts, etc, were the purpose of WoG (while I did say "*starting* from new creatures"). This is also not the point. Again - the purpose of WoG was to enhance the original game. And at the very beginning ERM was thought (by Slava) to be the main tool for that. However, when the whole Team got together and made all the features of 3.50, those features then became actually more important and game-changing. Thankfully, ERM got to be used, "wogify" was invented and now we have so many options in the game .
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2010 12:23 PM |
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It may be miss understanding. I never said WoG is based on mixing games, but has a purpose to open new ways/possibilities. May them be within its specific world, or different worlds. ERM is rich and allows a lot of things until now.
I don't care much about what is used to do it, but about the result, the atmosphere, the innovations, the game play, the story, the layout.
I also think that Heroes original universe is pretty dead, after looking at the real lack of interest players had to improve it during those years. It is a fact, unless you show me some work done 100% about. Many started, none finished. The true fan accomplish his work.
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 01:02 PM |
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It may be miss understanding. I never said WoG is based on mixing games, but has a purpose to open new ways/possibilities.May them be within its specific world, or different worlds.
The first part is true, the second isn't. Just look at the options/feature of WoG so far. Then you will see what was the purpose of WoG during the years of its development.
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ERM is rich and allows a lot of things until now.
ERM can make a new location in Erathia, where you buy dragons but it can also make location where you buy your light-sabre. ERM is a language. Its use is not limited. WoG on the other hand is a fan add on for Heroes III and its world.
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I don't care much about what is used to do it, but about the result, the atmosphere, the innovations, the game play, the story, the layout.
Yes, I agree. And for me the atmosphere, the layout, the story as a result of mixing Heroes III and other games that differ from it look terrible. But that is my own oppinion and I'm not saying it's a general one or that it's objective.
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I also think that Heroes original universe is pretty dead, after looking at the real lack of interest players had to improve it during those years. It is a fact, unless you show me some work done 100% about. Many started, none finished. The true fan accomplish his work.
Well, that's the problem with fans. Still there are some fan additions which were meant to enhance the original game - starting from "New Upgrades", to "Quicksilver", to "The Halfings mod", to even the "Grove" town (though I'm aware of the fact that it has some elements from Warcraft).
Actually - almost all fan projects - finished or not - concentrated mostly on the original game. You are, as far as I know, the first to bring such "drastic" concepts as mixing Heroes and Stargate or the 300 story together. And fate had it that you actually DO something instead of just talking or leaving a project when it gets less interesting.
That's why I decided to write to you, that your point of view is different than that of many players/modders, including the current WoG creators. It's just that most of the fans do nothing, and you do something . And for sure the purpose of WoG isn't to "open to new things, not just stick to Heroes III". But it is its *possibility* which you have successfully used.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2010 01:16 PM |
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And for me the atmosphere, the layout, the story as a result of mixing Heroes III and other games that differ from it look terrible.
I do my best to have a result where you will never notice there is actually a mixing. All must look natural. And I am highly interested by the feedback I could have for the effort, positive or not.
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Still there are some fan additions which were meant to enhance the original game - starting from "New Upgrades", to "Quicksilver", to "The Halfings mod", to even the "Grove" town (though I'm aware of the fact that it has some elements from Warcraft).
Those are only fashion mods, they do not add a different gameplay, new features, new heros (except halflings->well done). It is half job, IMHO. Good for a modder start, but could go further.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 01:28 PM |
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Those are only fashion mods, they do not add a different gameplay, new features, new heros (except halflings->well done). It is half job, IMHO. Good for a modder start, but could go further.
New heroes are more important than new creatures?
Do you actually know what is in those mods? :>
I can guarantee that they do modify the gameplay.
But it's good to know you like new heroes . link
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2010 01:33 PM |
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I tried to get them but all links from HC are dead (so all I know is from screens). Have new links for me?
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Era II mods and utilities
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted January 08, 2010 02:56 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2010 03:17 PM |
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Thanks, now that you point me on the link, I see I already had it on my computer but did not find enough spectacular to trigger starting work on a campaign or a map. Nice things in, nevertheless. 
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