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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Capital first or creatures?
Thread: Capital first or creatures? [ This thread is 6 pages long: 1 (2) 3 4 5 6 ]
zanshin
zanshin

Tavern Dweller
posted January 15, 2002 08:22 AM

thanks again

for all the thoughts & the explanations , i now know what toh means!!
I am going to start a new thread on a similair topic - how many heroes in week 1?
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted January 15, 2002 12:04 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, you TOHers have gotten spoiled on rich maps.  I dare anyone of you to play me a cd map and go for your lvl 7 dwelling.  Your lack of resources will hamstring you.
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 15, 2002 04:28 PM

Gootch my man...
CD maps suck!

Lets play random on 160%
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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted January 15, 2002 06:36 PM

hmm, hafto disagree there....

CD maps have so much more thought and originality in them.  Plus they actually take some strategy to play.

TOH maps suck big time.

They all have mines close to you that are guarded by L1 creatures, and has a big L7 monster guarding the pass to your enemy.  All are symmetrical maps, or nearly so, so that you know where your enemy is.  

They all copy each other, and so they have no originality whatsoever.

CD maps may not always be PERFECTLY balanced, but a more fun game and more strategical game comes from the CD maps or other custom maps, NOT toh.

TOH maps may show who is the better player, but they sure are much less fun than others which arent symmetrical and where everyone doesnt get all these resources first week.

Gootch is right, you can beat toh people on CD maps cuz they always go for L7 dwelling first... i have done it.

Not to beat a dead horse, but how do cd maps suck and toh maps rule?  Toh maps have no redeeming qualities...


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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 15, 2002 06:55 PM

Do you realize the ramifications of having unbalanced maps available for ToH play? Some players dont mind so much (ie the random players) but the competition level in ToH is fierce, with super players all round, and most wont stand for unbalanced maps. So you see, most Toh maps are made with the masses in mind. I'm sure chief mapmaker jb239 has creative talents in abundance, but he is restricted by the needs of the tournament. I'm sure its fun to have a nice storyline and puzzles to work out, but when you are playing 2 or 4 min turns, you dont want to be sitting there reading the introductory text for 2min of your turn. Please dont bag the crap out of someones efforts to create balance, when you dont really understand what they are doing it for
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dragonsister
dragonsister

Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
posted January 15, 2002 10:52 PM

*Symmetry* or balance issues are very important in close-fought tournaments, to be sure.  But high resource availablilty?  Surely not - indeed, surely having consistent access to abundant resources detracts from the level of strategy or skill required, in that judging the map and balancing resources against creatures is not nearly so important?

DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/

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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted January 15, 2002 10:58 PM

the mines are near town and weak guarded to make all towns playable, coz usually you play random town not pick.
cant you see what a poor map would mean to tower, rampart or dungeon for example?
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Eliogabalus
Eliogabalus


Hired Hero
posted January 16, 2002 05:54 AM

cd maps better than TOH maps?

Many of the cd maps was tried in TOH before we got the custom ones, and isnt it strange that no one (except a few games on modified crimson and clover) plays them anymore? Not really there was many good ideas but generally they were not suited for tournament play.

And some of them are rich on resources, look at divided loyalties, which is one of the better and more played for TOH, it's so rich that you can build level 7 even on 200%,  for every pack of level 1's you fight you get a few chests some resources and 1 artifact!

Of course TOH maps arent perfect, but there are maps for different tastes and you can always use difficulty to prevent week1 level 7 (well not on maps like hourglass)









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Legolust
Legolust


Adventuring Hero
Aurora Australis
posted January 16, 2002 07:14 AM

its a circle of dependence thing. you cant build, in no way a 7th level dweling if you dont have lotsa $. and you dont if you play on 200%
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Noldus
Noldus

Tavern Dweller
posted January 16, 2002 11:01 AM

Quote:
CD maps have so much more thought and originality in them.  Plus they actually take some strategy to play.

TOH maps suck big time.

TOH maps may show who is the better player, but they sure are much less fun than others which arent symmetrical and where everyone doesnt get all these resources first week.




Toh maps have the disadvantage that the relics will decide which player who will win. If u get the tomb of earth magic and/or the helmet, and have power 10-15, your chances would be better than if u get the stupid wingboots, or tomb of water magic.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted January 16, 2002 11:18 AM

The difference between an average player and a very good player is that the good player always turns the luck to his/her advantange even if its bad luck.

/Stefan

...Im still practising on the "learn how to use dragon crown/black orb to your advantage" thing tho

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted January 16, 2002 12:10 PM

Hey, I never said that the cd maps were good, just fewer resources.  I totally understand the need to make symmetrical maps for toh(would you let your opponent replace a bishop with an extra rook if you were playing chess?)  

But Rych, there are newcomers to HC who have never heard of toh.  You tell them to go level 7 all the time and they're either going to think you're nuts or--an amatuer(a fatal mistake if they ever play you...but that's besides the point).  

I recently read the list of people's favorite maps, and I can't remember many saying that the toh maps are their fav...they're more like a necessarey evil.  In fact, a number of people say that myth and legend is their all-time fav.  
We all know that it isn't remotely a toh map, but it has something that most toh maps don't have...fun.

Don't get me wrong(I hate straddling both sides of the fence, but...) I prefer the cutthroat competition that human players offer but that was one map that had an epic feel to it.  Toh maps don't have that.  They can't have that.

As for random, I hate random maps.  You have to either edit the crap out of them or have umpteen house rules to make the game more 'fair'.  When NWC develops a decent random map generator, I'll do 3do a favor and buy the entire "Army Men" series.  Until then, I guess you and I will only be able to shadow-box here at HC.

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dragonsister
dragonsister

Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
posted January 17, 2002 01:10 AM

Quote:
the mines are near town and weak guarded to make all towns playable, coz usually you play random town not pick.
cant you see what a poor map would mean to tower, rampart or dungeon for example?


Can't you see what a rich map means to Fortress and Stronghold?  I believe those two towns fare better on leaner maps.  This was far more obviously the case in HOMM2 - different towns fared better in different situations.  It's still the case in HOMM3 - some towns need a lot of resources; others can get by quite well when there aren't a lot of resources around.  And it's *really* going to show up in the HOMM4 magic schools - they are so totally different that they cannot *help* but vary with the map.  Lots of creatures recruited from towns?  Use creature-boosting schools.  Far fewer creatures available?  Direct Damage spells and summon-creature spells are called for.

Frankly, I think HOMM4 will be a more interesting game, in similar ways to the strengths of HOMM2; HOMM3 may seem bland and uniform by contrast.

But we're talking HOMM3 now.  And I still think that rich maps are not the only way to go - or the best way of demonstrating skill.  If there are fewer resources available, I have to make some tough choices, whatever town I might be playing.  I've played my handful of MP games on CD-quality maps, usually when the map was *totally* new to me - and found that there's a lot of guessing, gambling, and calculating to do that just wouldn't be necessary when re-playing a rich map.

How rich are random maps?

DragonSister
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 17, 2002 03:08 AM

Random maps vary greatly, here are 2 examples of templates used by random maps...

Ring... super rich map, is quite easy to get 8 heroes up by day 2 even on 160% and level 7 week 1, depending on town and how lucky u get

Rise of the Phoenix... this template is the roughest of them all, there will not be one unguarded resource or chest, but it doesnt come up often. Makes for a real chalenging game
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted January 17, 2002 05:43 PM

templates suck, i thought random is random
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Fantusta
Fantusta


Known Hero
who wishes he was high
posted January 17, 2002 06:04 PM

you want random?  We all do, but imagine the time it would take to create them!!  I play random map mainly though, for they force you to know all situations.
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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted January 18, 2002 01:39 PM

Quote:
*Symmetry* or balance issues are very important in close-fought tournaments, to be sure.  But high resource availablilty?  Surely not

I'm with u all the way Sister , I said this be4- high resource maps take out of the startegy... I don't like the fact that u can almost always built lvl7 in the 1st week
And two other things I hate - TRADING POST on almost EVERY MAP , and ALTAR of SACRIFICE .



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blub_lover
blub_lover


Hired Hero
butt-loving salad tosser
posted January 19, 2002 05:48 AM

Quote:
At the risk of repeating myself, you TOHers have gotten spoiled on rich maps.  I dare anyone of you to play me a cd map and go for your lvl 7 dwelling.  Your lack of resources will hamstring you.



alright Gootch!  I'll challenge you on the cd map 7 lakes, with my favorite heroine Gem.    I'll go for green dragons if you like.

I'll even let you pick the color.  

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted January 20, 2002 04:49 AM

Quote:
Quote:
At the risk of repeating myself, you TOHers have gotten spoiled on rich maps.  I dare anyone of you to play me a cd map and go for your lvl 7 dwelling.  Your lack of resources will hamstring you.



alright Gootch!  I'll challenge you on the cd map 7 lakes, with my favorite heroine Gem.    I'll go for green dragons if you like.

I'll even let you pick the color.  


cd maps are they already in your game when you download it.
I dont think 7 lakes is a cd map.
If I am wrong let me know?
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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 21, 2002 11:38 PM

Hmm, I hate to pop in in the middle off a discussion, but Ive just played 3 CD-maps multiplayer, (Actually all for TOH, back in season 2 when I was a newbie)
Crimson and Clover, Boooring, fairly ressource poor untill u realize there is 3 goldmines underground, with a random relic guarded by level 4 creat, set on normal. First time I played it, I went underground week 1, and came up with HH and 15 medusa queen joiners. We both played it blind, but damn did I kill him fast.
Divided Loyalty, cd-version. Also blind. For some odd reason there is only one library on the map, and that was placed near to my town. Took a couple off chest for xp, got my +2 on all and killed off my comp opponent in the underground before I went for the kill. This has as much ressource as any given TOH-map.
Rumble in the Bogs. Got dungeon vs fortress. Had taken the whole middle before my opponent broke out, But the problem with all 3 maps was that they werent replayable once u know them. Cept if u make some adjustments to them, as TOH has done.
One more point, there are loads of TOH-maps who are ressource sparse, u just gotta look for them, and there is also the difficulty setting. Its quite tough to get angels on BfH at a measly 130% setting, at least if u want castle aswell.
The CD-maps where made for one-player game, and though they can be fun, I prefer a human opponent anyday.
Just my 2 cents.

Defreni
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