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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2011 11:44 AM |
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What has the shape of a country to do with the question whether a group of people celebrates something legal they have in common with a parade?
Would an Easter procession end in riots and turmoil as well, people celebrating something else they had in common?
If yes, it would say something about the sorry shape of the people in that country, not of "the country".
If no, what's the point exactly?
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baklava
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posted February 04, 2011 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
Because that would mean, people are just TOLERATED. The idea is not to bring people to tolerate what everyone thinks is abnormal, distasteful, unnatural or whatever. The idea is to establish those people as "different, but nonetheless "normal"" in every respect that actually counts.
  
"Normal" is certainly not the word that falls on my mind first. And certainly not "Christian mass".
Besides, I'm pretty sure San Francisco and a lot of other places on Earth do consider them different but normal. Yet the parade marches on. It's like it's radiating a feeling of superiority.
Black people never expressed that. They wanted to be accepted, got that, and went on to live their lives normally. That was it, that was what they wanted. They could tell when they won.
Back on topic.
A counter parade, "family pride" or something like that, was organized and held the day before the gay one. Far more people showed up and there were no riots whatsoever, since the cavemen were busy gathering rocks for the one tomorrow. I strongly believe 90% of participants in the "family" one felt kind of retarded no need to parade whatsoever, but showed up just as a sign of protest against the other parade. Which leaves the entire situation even more pointless and absurd than it was before.
Quote:
What has the shape of a country to do with the question whether a group of people celebrates something legal they have in common with a parade?
It has everything to do with it.
Like I said, we don't care, it's your job to take care of that, **** you, we're parading, who gives a crap if your piece of **** employed people risk their lives going to work today is the activist attitude around here and you're supporting it, showing a criminal lack of understanding toward things that need to be handled carefully if they are to serve for the better of my country and its gay population. My mom had to go to work that day, she works at B92, the liberal radio-television which is quite often the target of hooligans and other human trash. I had no way of knowing if she'd make it there and back in one piece. We've all, along with most of the population in light of recent events, become rather disillusioned with the genuine wish of the activists to bring something better to Serbia and its gays, and it really seems they just want to push their own agenda through at all costs. Well, except for risking their own necks, of course, that's out of the question. And then they are incredibly shaken that people are fed up with that, and show us as mindless barbarians if we don't support them with everything we've got.
But hey, whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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VokialBG
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posted February 04, 2011 02:47 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 14:53, 04 Feb 2011.
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Why they dress like this on the parades? It's pretty much not normal...
Why they actually need to do a parade?
If they don't do it, and never dress like that it's much more normal 
... there are kids on the street too...
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French gay marriage ban upheld by constitutional court
I don't get it.
constitutional court defence the constitution, no law can be against it's rules. If the Constitution says that marriage is union between man and woman (as it's in the Constitution of Bulgaria - article 46) the constitutional court is going to ban anything that allow marriages between man and man, woman and woman, man and a pig and etc...
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xerox
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posted February 04, 2011 02:56 PM |
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cause the majority of all gay people dress like that, yeah right...
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted February 04, 2011 02:59 PM |
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Yeah, I don't see dressing like that helping anybody's cause.
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted February 04, 2011 03:03 PM |
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@Vokial:
I was being facetious. I actually agree with the ruling, legally speaking. A constitution is a document of authority and if it needs to be changed (which in this case I think it should be), then they need to go through the long and difficult process of amending it, rather than the judges deciding to BS their way through it. That's a very dangerous road and should not be tolerated in any instance, even if it is seemingly harmless.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2011 03:05 PM |
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What would be wrong with people just letting parade?
In other words: aren't you just somewhat mistaking the cure for the desease and vice versa? Can a democratic country be in a state that doesn't allow people to make use of their legal rights? Aren't you blaming the wrong persons and excusing the wrong persons?
If I understand you right, as a minority you shouldn't do anything that "hooligans" or "primitives" may react hostile about, because as a minority you should think about the collateral damage those "hooligans" might do when their collective wrath hits.
Don't you think that this is pretty ridiculous, considering that the hooligans are a minority as well (and if not, too bad for Serbia and everyone else)?
And those pictures: are they supposed to shock or something? Give a reason about how clear it was that they would be attacked?
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VokialBG
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posted February 04, 2011 03:16 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 15:21, 04 Feb 2011.
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@Blizz: changing the law isn't that easy, especially when you add something totally new. The law regulate what's in the objective reality, and what the nation can accept. You can't allow gay marriages on constitutional level if the nation is totally against it (1) and if there is low need for the society of it (2).
Since gays are around 1-3% of the world population, the need is pretty low. And they can still live together if they want to.
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And still why they even need the parade things, they can just love each other without dressing like clowns, right? They can live together and etc..., right? There are much bigger problems then gays, right? Like the guy out there who is dying hungry or that old women who can't by medications because her pension is to low. Right?
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Doomforge
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posted February 04, 2011 03:46 PM |
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You can't ignore the problem because there seems to be a bigger problem around. That way, we should ignore racism, discrimination of any sort, because there's always unsolved problems with hunger or disease, which is more fatal problem.
However, I do agree that that kind of cosplay doesn't do ANY good to gay people. it makes people - those who don't have much to do with gays and don't know any - often older - that THIS is what average gay looks like. Seriously, gay guys, you're doing it wrong.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2011 03:47 PM |
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baklava
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posted February 04, 2011 03:51 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:57, 04 Feb 2011.
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No, JJ, I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid getting people's lives in danger over something like that. If you think that, then I can only pity you. Gay people, as a Serbian minority, should be smart enough to chill out and help to fix something in the country instead of pouring oil in the fire in a region where hardcore nationalism is a bomb ticking to explode. And the best part is that they are, Serbian gays are mostly aware of that and act completely normal. But there's this sudden outside influence telling them that if they don't feel the need to parade around and marry each other, they're betraying their own kind. The hooligans are a minority, but acts like these are increasing their numbers, and strengthening them. All I'm saying, and you can't understand it for some reason, is that you can't rush against the primitive masses like an idiot, you need to work on making things better so that their numbers are reduced. With the decrease in living standards, increase in corruption, the abysmal financial situation of the country, the global economic crisis and all the other challenges of local democracy, the system is standing on glass legs, with carrion swarms waiting, as always, to get in and seize things for themselves. These things only feed them and worsen everything.
Things like gay parades are an incredibly selfish and short-sighted move in a situation like this, which you'd realize yourself if you cared to spare a thought or two about an issue before forcing your decision on someone, as the West so often does with us.
"Are those pictures supposed to shock?" No, I think they dress up like that to show their love to the world. Yes they're supposed to shock, goddamnit. Look at them. Why else would they be doing that? They want to shock us by trying however they can to look as strange, repulsive and perverted as possible, in the streets, and when we're shocked, they scream about how homophobic we are. I just don't freaking get it. What do these people want from regions in which they have everything, like San Francisco? Rub their victory in other people's noses, what?
***
About the Genoa issue, proof appeared recently that the hooligan leader was paid to start rioting. Serbian supporters were also, throughout the match, sprayed by water from hoses by the neighbouring Italian ones behind the fence. There's more to that story than it meets the eye, as it is with everything you draw hasty conclusions about. To understand the problem better, you could also try reading the whole article.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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OmegaDestroyer
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Fox or Chicken?
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posted February 04, 2011 04:14 PM |
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Basically, people dress bad enough as is. No need to intentionally make yourself an idiot. I have clients who do that. They come to court wearing hoodies and pajama pants despite pleading with them not to, and wonder why the judge doesn't take them seriously.
Perhaps people wouldn't be as threatened by the terrifying concept of two consenting adults entering into a legal contract, if the message wasn't being broadcast aside the cast of Cirque du Soleil.
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted February 04, 2011 04:16 PM |
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Admittedly, it's a classic example of how to compromise your own movement. The greatest liability of the gay rights movement is gay people.
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VokialBG
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posted February 04, 2011 04:16 PM |
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I agree with Bak.
Plus really, dressing like this make them VERY disgusting. This is not how they can "teach" the other people that they are normal. This do the opposite. How can a guy who can go on the street dressed like that be normal??? Thats what people are thinking. And what I'm thinking.
And really, gays and racism is the last problems here. If they don't do the parades actually there is going to be less homophobia.
On the gay parade in Sofia there were as I know from the news around 140 gays, like 80 were from Holland and Greece and like 300 cops to protect them. Over 240 arrested  
So why we need parades???
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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2011 04:27 PM |
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I did that.
That's why I asked whether it was the fault of the players (who were threatened in their bus) or the other spectators.
What YOU don't seem to realize is that violent idiots/misguided will ALWAYS find someone to vent their dissatisfaction on, and violent idiots/misguided will always listen to, after a while, what their leaders tell them.
If it's not the gays, it will be the muslims, if it's not the muslims, it will be the Americans, if it's not the Americans, it will be the Russians, the Jews, the Sinti, the Roma ... or the supporters of the wrong soccer club.
And if you pity me, go ahead - but pityable is what you write. Your posts together with the pictures are just propaganda - it seems that YOU don't see that YOU are supporting the hooligans, because you fall yor their tactics: their tactics is to create and spread FEAR. Of course they look for MINORITY victims, for god's sake; you should have learned that by now, after all it's the internet, so Hitler is often enough mentioned and his SA were hooligans as well.
Which means, YOU should be smart enough to realize this.
Did the Jews fit in? Nope, they had their long beards and their Sabbat and whatnot and their very own rites and their own churches, and lots of people were - yes, gleeful, when the first attacks happened. Because they were different - at least those who did have long beards and wear strange clothes -, and because most of them were NOT poor...
Now ask yourself a simple question: if the gays would have avoided the parade - would that make the hooligans disappear? The vene of extreme right nationalism? The threat of violence that 2000-3000 hooligans who are prepared to become violent on command pose?
No?
So what has the parade to do with the problem?
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted February 04, 2011 04:30 PM |
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Quote:
@Blizz: changing the law isn't that easy, especially when you add something totally new. The law regulate what's in the objective reality, and what the nation can accept. You can't allow gay marriages on constitutional level if the nation is totally against it (1) and if there is low need for the society of it (2).
Since gays are around 1-3% of the world population, the need is pretty low. And they can still live together if they want to.
One of the common functions of a constitution is to provide protections and guarantees to people that can't do it themselves (i.e. groups that fall into a 1-3% category).
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted February 04, 2011 04:33 PM |
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Quote:
One of the common functions of a constitution is to provide protections and guarantees to people that can't do it themselves (i.e. groups that fall into a 1-3% category).
Not so much these days.
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baklava
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posted February 04, 2011 05:08 PM |
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I'd be more than willing to fight for anyone who is actually getting oppressed. The Jews, however, are not attacked randomly in the streets or in their shops like in Weimar Germany. In fact, they're not attacked at all, excluding occasional skinhead graffiti. A band of skinheads attacked a Roma settlement a few years ago and were arrested and ended up in jail. Neither of the other minority groups like Jews and Roma are trying to go directly against their surroundings and security warnings, and then ask for the authorities to send in cops to get stoned for them. Neither would, for example, the Roma, get that kind of support from the West like gays did.
It's the gay parade supporters that "fall" for the ultranationalist "tactics" - because these things, coupled with all the ACTUAL problems our country has, leave the impression that the government doesn't care about real issues, but only about kissing Western arses. This only strengthens them and increases their numbers. Like communist protests strengthened the Nazis in the Weimar republic.
I am not willing to fight for, nor support, a handful of foreign activists who have the same rights that I do (arguably more), but want to go around making our gays parade about it and provoking people (call those photos "propaganda" all you want, they are actual photos from actual parades in parts of the planet where gays are most accepted. Those people are proud of doing that). These activists do not care about me, they do not care about my country, they only care about themselves and pushing what they see as their "culture" and "way of life" on other people, such as Serbian gays, most of whom are simply different from them. It's like they want gays to have a strong, separated worldwide subculture and hate to see a place where homosexuals act like everyone else and blend in easily. If something goes wrong, it's alright, it's not the activists who have to live here.
If they support being different so much, then why don't they let us be freaking different? Why doesn't the West care about my bloody rights, why doesn't it send activists to fight corruption or economic failures of my government? If we're on our own, we're on our own. The least you can do is stop giving us additional problems, goddamnit.
People who think like you do, instead of actually doing something to fix the situation and set the ultranationalists back, simply add to the chaos that ensues.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2011 05:39 PM |
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It's people like you who do that, because you support things you shouldn't for purely tactical reasons.
All the same arguments than in Germany, 80 years ago: the allies shouldn't have done this and that... And this bull about "the West sending activists". The West. Please.
The only relevant question is this: Are the paraders doing something ILLEGAL?
If yes, it's the task of the police to prohibit it, and the parade shouldn't even have taken place.
If no, it's the task of the police to nick the hooligans and put them away.
As they did it with the skinheads who attacked the Roma camp.
If those two options don't satisfy, change your laws. Period.
That's basically the definition of a state of law. You either do live in one oder you don't and you either want to live in one or you don't.
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Doomforge
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posted February 04, 2011 05:41 PM |
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JJ, how about answering a simple question:
Why are gay parades organized - what's the goal?
and the second question:
Do they actually accomplish that goal?
Then we can talk about the rest.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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