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| Thread: Native Americans |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 12, 2009 12:34 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 00:35, 12 Oct 2009.
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Here's the Dirt on Canada, we're taught many of the failings of our country here in order to try to come up with ways to improve it and to prevent history from repeating itself.
We took the native lands entirely by treaty, as they (the Natives in the area) had mostly become co-operative with the Europeans due to the efforts of the French. Unfortunately, discrimination still ran rampant and for centuries, Natives mostly lived on reserves that had settlements mostly managed by themselves with little help, leading to a lack of education, alcoholism and squalor. Our (Conservative BTW) Prime Minister has recently apologized the the mistreatment of the natives. Also, the Inuit tribe were given their own Territory (Nunavut) in the late 90's.
Another dark mark on Canadian history, the Cajuns. They used to be called the Acadians. They lived in Newfoundland and the other Maritime Provinces until the English kicked them out and they migrated south to found Louisiana. The reason for the word "Cajun" is because "Acadian" pronounced with a French Accent sounds like "A Cajun".
Canada was the receiving end of the Underground Railroad, but Black people while being completely free and equal under the law still saw a lot of prejudice from the White majority. It's greatly reduced these days, but it's still lingering somewhat, just not in the open. It's Canadian custom to try to make everybody feel welcome even if they make you feel uncomfortable. It's sad but there are some tiny sprouts of the Klan in Canada as well.
Chinese people were once subjected to a "Head Tax" to enter the country many couldn't afford as part of an effort to stop them from getting in. This has also been apologized for. Also, Chinese and other Asians were used for the most dangerous jobs when building the trans-continental railway. (Said to be a dead man for every mile.)
The Japanese were actually treated worse here for the internment over the ones in the US. Some American Japanese were actually given some property back, the ones here had the vast majority of their property stolen and never returned. (As happened to my Hubby's great grandparents.)
Our first Prime Minister (Sir John A. MacDonald) was a lush, and often showed up drunk to Parliament. Another Primer Minister (William Lyon Mackenzie King), was the Grandson of a man who previously threw a Rebellion.
Just some of the many "unpatriotic" things we're generally "indoctrinated" with because we love our country and want to improve it. We're generally also taught the good points and failings of various people throughout history because generally, it's good to understand other countries if you want to help them (we love them too, especially America for some reason). We are also taught early American history because much of it ties in with our own. The Founding Fathers are not some paragons or false idols to worship, they were great men with some great ideas and also some serious flaws.
Some people have said that I argue only a Liberal point, but that's not true. I always try to be objective and see it from as many sides as I can. I'm a Fiscal Conservative because I believe in reducing the amount Governments have to pay to get results (the US is spending more on Healthcare for example now than it would "socialized", preventative care is much cheaper than actual cures.) and reigning in spending (I'd personally like politicians to be very limited in the amount of money they can make and lobbying to be illegalized with harsh billion dollar fines as it just corrupts politicians into making wasteful choices). I've criticized and scrutinized many people in all levels of government on all sides of the political spectrum.
So yea, the Natives were treated worse than Black people here, and we admit it.
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friendofgunnar
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Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted October 12, 2009 03:58 AM |
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BaklavaQuote:
I have a deep mourning for northern Native Americans, as I find their culture to be the closest to my soul.
I remembered this quote because it's very similar to something my fave author Phillip Jose Farmer said. I'd recommend reading his sci-fi/adventure novels in the "World of Tiers" series.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted October 12, 2009 07:59 PM |
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 12, 2009 08:24 PM |
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very off topic:
didn't albert einstein say on creation of the nuclear bomb.
"Yes, use it, but for gods sake, don't drop it on a civilian area."
Think about it, Hirohito would have seen the effects if it dropped on a military base, and he was the one who had the final say, and was shocked at what the bomb could do. I feel he would have been just as shocked if it landed on a military base instead off a civilian town, possibly.
I don't know, I feel that those who died at hiroshima and nagasaki died...not unnessecarily, but less lives could have been lost to acheive the same effect.
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Elodin
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Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 12, 2009 08:49 PM |
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Yes, very off topic. A short rebuttal.
It is quite easy to second guess, isn't it? Being an armchair quarterback.
The president dropped one nuclear bomb and Japan did not surrender. Two day;s later he dropped another one and Japan surrendered.
Japan had attacked America first. America used its only two nuclear bombs to end the war. That saved American and Japanese lives.
Anyways, if you wish to continue the discussion please start an appropriate thread to do so in or use one of the fifty other anti-American threads.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 12, 2009 09:13 PM |
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Elodin: Don't talk about history as if you think something could have happened, there is to many lose treads to even consider talking about it. You talk about "saved lives", yet the nukes was used 2 cities anyhow. It was just a question of time before the Japs would have surrendered anyhow, since they was already losing badly.
And save lives? Please. What i am curious of is what would have happened in the Japs decided to do a direct land assault on USA, after leveling the (mostly) British navy in a good sneak attack when there was nobody around to see it happen(read: Pearl Harbor). For all we know the US could have been steamrolled, remember that the Japs did not assault USA after Pearl Harbor and did the fatal mistake of letting them rebuild properly(remember: all the uber capitalists decided to lend their resources to the president due the medias angle).
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted October 12, 2009 09:30 PM |
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Quote:
-Native Americans-
"Buddhist monks... buddhist monks.."
How can anyone be so stupid?
Sorry for offtopic..
Warning.
If you go on spamming other fora than the Wastelands like you do pretty often lately, except a penalty soon!
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Peacemaker
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 13, 2009 06:59 PM |
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Unbelievable --
The amount of ignorant offal being slung around in this thread, as usual following an earnest attempt to start a serious dialogue, is simply appalling to me.
If any of you is serious about getting to know the history of this topic, and/or whether this is a thing of the "past," then do some real research. Don't just flail about making claims based on what you think you know. Trust me, you don't know jack.
Start with the book, "American Holocaust" by David Stannard. Of course I will anticipate many of you with your ready-formed "opinions" will not bother, thinking you already know what's going on. It is clear to me that gaining knowledge is not the goal here.
I apologize for my unusually harsh tone. But if you do as I suggest, you will come to understand why. As they say, one is entitled to one's own opinions, but one is not entitled to one's own facts.
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Peacemaker
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 13, 2009 07:36 PM |
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BTW -- Doomforge --
Since your original post clearly indicated some genuine interest in the subject, I'd like to redirect you to some conversations that took place here years ago, when folks had serious, informed conversations.
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=10425&pagenumber=3 (primarily pages 3 & 4 for purposes of this thread)
As for the rest of you, I dare you not to declare that thread too much intellectual "heavy lifting" and actually read the damn thing.
Here's another link (see primarily my post of March 9, 2003 about two thirds of the way down this page)
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=7946&pagenumber=6
VF, as for the image of the drunk Indians sopping off the government, I urge you to read some of the stuff in the above links to get a clearer picture. In essence: once you dessimate a culture, take the culture's land, destroy its resources, cut it off from its food source, take its children away and forbid them to see their parents or speak their language, remove them from their lands and tribes by the hundreds of thousands and stick them in city centers with cultures foreign to their own, refuse to hire them because they're "long-haired savages," and then on top of all that give them a gene that makes them highly susceptible to alcoholism and provide them with plenty of booze, what you get (no great surprise) is a bunch of drunk Indians on welfare. Once that becomes the "culture" into which you are born and grow up inside, then that's the culture you tend to adapt to and perpetuate.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 13, 2009 07:52 PM |
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Quote:
years ago, when folks had serious, informed conversations
It's almost hard to imagine now that there was such a time...
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Peacemaker
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 13, 2009 08:07 PM |
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Hi Corribus
Do you think I should take that line down? It's probably not a very nice thing to say...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 13, 2009 08:13 PM |
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@Peacemaker
No, because it's true. Intelligent, serious discourse is hard to find around the OSM these days, and when some does appear it's usually drowned out immediately by all the noise. I doubt many would disagree with this assessment.
Not that I meant to drag the thread even more off-topic. It's just nice to see some of the quality posters of yore make an appearence now and then.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 13, 2009 08:15 PM |
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Thanks. Likewise.
Hope you enjoy those old threads.
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Doomforge
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Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 18, 2009 12:13 PM |
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Peacemaker,
I read the treads you mentioned. An interesting read. I agree with all of the points you made in those topics.
The real problem is that the situation is pretty hard to judge right now. The Native Americans were, let's say it straight, a subject of holocaust. Hard to call it any other way: They were metodically murdered and exterminated because the settlers wanted "living space". Much like Third Reich wanted the living space and thus decided to exterminate the Slavs (or turn them into slaves) and populate their "cleansed of useless people" lands with Germans. There is no point of arguing that it wasn't that kind of well-constructed murder, but we shouldn't forget that there was no "great leader" back then, the European settlers where conflicted and the technology didn't allow for that kind of methodical genocide. The intent was similar, though, and that's why it matters (again, I'm always about the "intent" and "outcome", methods and process doesn't interest me when I'm comparing things).
But there's no one to blame right now for that. Ah, the "sins of our fathers" dilemma. Should their sons take the blame? If yes, you're penalizing innocents. If no, such a crime just goes without any sort of punishment, which is disgusting.
But there is nothing that can be done. History is indeed written by the winners: that's why American people now can think of immigrants poorly (even though their ancestors where the same immigrants they now hate) and criticize Nazis, conveniently being silent about their own local holocaust their ancestors brought.
Still, things like the fact that the scalp of the dead chief of Lakota was kept in a museum until year 2000 is pretty disgusting.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted October 18, 2009 12:28 PM |
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There's nothing to worry about it anymore but I think it's disgusting if sons are proud of their fathers' actions as founders.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 18, 2009 12:28 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 14:23, 18 Oct 2009.
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[offtopic]Peacemaker, you are a refreshing breeze much needed in the OSM. I wish more discussions such as this would come about, and that people would actually discuss them instead of taking things so far afield most of the time. Thank you.[/offtopic]
I am proud of my heritage and to be a Native American, but I agree with you Peacemaker. A lot were not as fortunate as me, who can pass for 'pure white'. It was indeed near a holocaust Doomforge, and that is why I said it was one of the darkest times in American history. I harbor no ill will to the sons of the fathers who participated in that holocaust however. I live by the do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So I forgive, because I want people to fogive any mistakes I make.
We need more people like Corribus, Bina, Peacemaker, etc to post in the OSM. To restore some of the good parts of it. Badly. 
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 19, 2009 12:13 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 12:50, 19 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
Still, things like the fact that the scalp of the dead chief of Lakota was kept in a museum until year 2000 is pretty disgusting.
I also find it disgusting that the natives that were slaughtered when Tecumseh covered the Canadian retreat during the American invasion had their skins stripped and tanned, then sold to various members of congress as "Tecumseh's skin".
1812 was a barbaric time. The British had proposed a free land between Canada and the US as a buffer to prevent invasion from either side and to provide Natives with a homeland of their own apart from the apartheid European culture. That was rejected.
Britain was tied up between the American invasion of Canada and Napoleon in Europe.
Note: It wasn't an idea that pleased all of the American public, just a lot of Congress and military commanders...
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