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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Time Management
Thread: Time Management This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted October 23, 2009 12:09 PM

Time Management

Post of Siegfrid in the Newcomers Inn inspired me to create this topic.

All of us has own occupation. Even students and pupils have a lot of work. Sometimes I see members sitting in the HC whole day, reading new posts, typing long replies... It is not a secret that it is a bit time consuming. A lot of HC members have their families, children but they do find enough time.
I want to remember that "Time is money" as it is said so I consider this topic enough important and don't think jokes are suitable here.
So there are some questions below I want to ask.

1) Do you consider the problem of time management important?

2) How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?

3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest. Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
What do you think ideal proportion?

Recently I heared a lot about time management lessons. They are not free and I haven't visited any.
4) Have you ever visited such lessons? If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?

5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?

6) Present your global thoughts what government can do to save time for every single citizen. Maybe some tasks should be done by robots instead of us. What investigations should be done? Do you think this is pressing problem for society?

7) What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?

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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 25, 2009 09:12 PM

Quote:
1) Do you consider the problem of time management important?


Yes. I consider time management important, because our life is determined by the actions we do, the amount of actions we can do is determined by the time we have, by using time management you can increase this amount, which means higher probability (or efficiency if you'd like) in getting your goals completed.

Quote:
2) How do you find time?

I've written the set of actions I do during a day, and then I priotize and plan for the given day. So given unseen mistakes arrises, I can still order my day to get the most important done, and otherwise (if everything goes as smoothly), I'll get all what I want to get done, done.
Also, training in the things you do (the actions), makes you better and faster at them most often (not always, but that I believe is most often due to a bad habit of doing it the slow way).

Quote:
Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?

What I most of all want to do, is to there for those I love, however to do that the best way possible, I have some work to do, to achieve some goals, so yes, I sacrifice time, doing something for the future in stead of what I want in the moment, because I believe in the long run, it will be for the best.
I do not sacrifice the working time, I'm here on a planned basis, except those days where there's really nothing to do (stuck in a room far away, and have done all I really could), where I happen to randomly surf once in a while, though it's not very often.

Quote:
3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest. Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?

Work - 30%
Family - 16%
Friends - 5,5%
Duties - 10%
Entertainment - 5,5%
Rest - 33%

Most often I do both entertainment and are with friends, but there are also the times where I'm with friends in other purposes, and the times where I'm doing entertainment by myself.

Quote:
What do you think ideal proportion?

It depends on what the given person wants (and lusts if the person gives into emotions, etc.)

Quote:
4) Have you ever visited such lessons?

They offered one free at my university, so I went there.

Quote:
If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?

It didn't really help me, because the ideas they wanted to learn me about where stuff I had thought by myself, and the ideas I hadn't thought up for myself, was something I wasn't interested in impleting anyway, maybe because I didn't understand it, or maybe because it didn't serve me as I wanted.
However others seemed to have gained a lot from it, though I can't say for sure, I haven't held contact with any of these people, and it may very well have been one of those "It all sounds so good here in class, but when I get home, I'm going to not think about it for the next 3 weeks, then remember it, but have forgotten it and stop bother", but then again, I can't say.

Quote:
5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week.

I did some very basic stuff, looked at the things I believed necessary to gather information, which is what I'm doing, and then I learned to be more efficient in that.
These are:
More efficient reading, typing, writing and drawing.
Then also trying all sorts of weird stuff to increase ability to concentrate, memorise and speed thinking (thinking without having to express it in words necessarily, among others).
Also, I started planning my days, and planning forward a long time, trying to "always be prepared".

Again, doing this, is, as answered to the first part, because I believe training yourself up and thereby be able to be more efficient is better, than having the same slow pace, since you'll in the long run get further this way. However it requires maintaining (which means if it's not included in the work you do, then you'll probably loose the skill), and also it requires some sacrifices in the beginning of your time, which may make it seem like a bet to go this way in stead of the slow, but certain way.

Quote:
6) Present your global thoughts what government can do to save time for every single citizen. Maybe some tasks should be done by robots instead of us. What investigations should be done? Do you think this is pressing problem for society?


I'm not certain what government can do, I think it's up to each of us, but I suppose studies in making people more efficient in what they want, and information about these possibilities would be great, so when you try to improve yourself, you aren't searching in blind (in opposite when searching for scientific paper, which often goes through great criticism before reaching the reader). Anyway, if I think of something I'll add it, but for me, government is about to ensure the freedom of all individuals, and safety of this freedom.

Quote:
7) What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?

I've had a lot of thoughts about this as well, but I'm out of time now, I'll add later on.

Good questions, very interesting topic, all of these are stuff I have considered some time ago to much recently, and I think all of them are very important in the society of today, where we indirectly depend on eachothers effeciency to get society to evolve to a state where everyone is competely free and completely safe before it's to late.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted October 25, 2009 09:34 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 21:55, 25 Oct 2009.

Quote:
Do you consider the problem of time management important?

I can't stand wasting time, there's always something worth doing.
Quote:
How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?

No movies, no books, no games - unless they are nessessary or I really need to rest.
Quote:
ow could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest

Job - none, I'm not gonna work in McDonalds or such.
Studying - yep, it hurts. Luckily after surviving first year I learned how to learn and every minute spend on education pays off.
Family - your argument is invalid
Dating - yes I do, but the list of interesting girls runs short.
Friends - none
Other duties - radioshow, programming, several minor projects if I have time, I'm also quite active at university with organisation and help. It's also good to do some sport everyday.
Entertainment - waste of time, however I like to read some worthwile texts and admire fine art.
Rest - essential. For the last few years my health has been steadily getting worse, so I slept about ten hours daily. Luckily now I started treatment and need only 8, but it's far from beeing perfect.
Quote:
And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
Entertainment, sometimes an intelectual feed. Though I'm quite an internet addict.
Quote:
What do you think ideal proportion?

Life is to short to waste it, though I'm not a machine and need to take a break from time to time.
Quote:
What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?

Typing is quite important since I type a lot, same for reading. It comes with practice if only you know how to do it right.
Also, since most of my work cna be done on computer, it is essential do use proper, automagic tools wisely.
Quote:
Present your global thoughts what government can do to save time for every single citizen. Maybe some tasks should be done by robots instead of us. What investigations should be done? Do you think this is pressing problem for society?

Ban advertisement. It confuses and shatters priorities which is very destructive to modern society. Actually this topic needs separate book, which challenge I hereby not take.
Quote:
What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?

I learn foreign languages from 6 years old, duh. Educational has the adventage of enforcing students to take care of themselves, on the other hand in former schools I used to be taught many things over and over again, while the others were ommited.

Ouch, that's a lot of text.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 25, 2009 09:57 PM

Very interesting topic.


Quote:
1) Do you consider the problem of time management important?


Yes. That's because I value free time over money; thus, I try to find solutions that grant me as much free time as possible. I don't give a damn whether it makes me poorer than other people - I would never give up my hobbies for more cash.

Quote:
2) How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?


I have a lot of hobbies that either focus on sitting in front of the computer or at least in my room. So a quick peek at HC from time to time doesn't take much time and doesn't interrupt what I'm doing.

Quote:
3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest.


Job/studying is a completely different category imho : things that are mandatory, but they are not pleasant at all or at least they are not something I want to do in my time. So, I spend as much as I HAVE to for those things, and avoid them entirely if I can.

Family, dating and friends takes some time, but I don't do it every day. I meet with friends/date like twice-thrice per week for a couple hours. Doesn't take much time overall and I'm pretty happy with it. If I need more interaction there is always msn/msn equivalents we use in Poland/phone.


Quote:
Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
What do you think ideal proportion?


HC is a nice little entertainment. I enjoy writing in general, and that also includes posting. My total time on HC, excluding times when I write a lengthy post, doesn't exceed like a couple minutes per day though and it suffices. I type really fast so writing short responses like this one doesn't take more than two minutes.
A good amount of time for HC and other forums would be like up to hour at max (best if shorter) for browsing forums of all kind and avoiding re-browsing the same sites mechanically (happens sometimes). If I'm busy, I spend half an hour for it, then turn off the browser and leave it that way till next day.

Quote:
Recently I heared a lot about time management lessons. They are not free and I haven't visited any.
4) Have you ever visited such lessons? If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?


No and I don't think I need them, I can organize my day myself if I need to by setting the alarm on my phone and just trying to fit within time restraints I set. People try to make money on ANYTHING and EVERYWHERE you look for help you can see "PAY ME PAY ME PAY MOOOOOOOOOORE" so it doesn't surprise me it looks that way with lessons, though.

Quote:
5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?


Avoiding to re-browse the same stuff on the internet saves so many hours that it's not even funny!
Seriously!
Once you're done, turn the browser off. If you don't have anything to do, go play a game. If not, turn off the PC. There, you've saved soo much time.

Quote:
6) Present your global thoughts what government can do to save time for every single citizen. Maybe some tasks should be done by robots instead of us. What investigations should be done? Do you think this is pressing problem for society?


Yes! the time people WASTE in their 40 hours per week (AT BEST!) work routine is pretty intense. I mean, there are times when you have absolutely NOTHING to do at work but you are OBLIGED to sit on your butt because some retard decided you cannot go home after doing what you are required: you have to sit there for an amount of time. It should be work-based, not time-based: you have something to do, and once you're done, you take your leave. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. Changing the system and introducing more automatisation would be our salvation: people wouldn't overwork, would have LIFE outside of the work-car-couch-bed-car-work cycle and would develop much richer, interesting personalities overall.

Seriously, it's a big problem. Ask a random corporate worker what he does and you'll see: he works a lot, takes a lot overtime, wastes some hours in traffic jams and home, he's just too tired to do anything else than watching TV, eating and sleeping. Take his job away and he'll become the most boring person on the planet.

We need more self-development, less slavelike work. Seriously.

Quote:
7) What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?



God, I wish the current system would just go away forever and never return. It's so HORRIBLE!!! A major waste of brain cells. It looks this way:

- I have around 6 exams, out if which maybe two are referring to what I'm studying. The rest are fillers; stuff like "mechanics of welding" (I'm studying logistics - how is this related?).
- I have lots of exams so I'm trying to cram as much basic knowledge as I can; My brain can't handle it all so I just learn by rote what I need to pass the exam.
- A simple overload happens: I forget almost instantly what I have learned after passing the exam. Ask me about whatever I was learning about three years ago and I will not be able to say a damn thing, even though I got A marks!
- Lecturers assume we already know the basics and don't focus on them; But most people forgot them or haven't understood them well. Thus, it's a horrible cycle of learning more and more advanced stuff while not understanding the BASICS. I can give you the most advanced ways of calculating the exploitation of logistical devices, but ask me about the basics on which the whole thing is based: probability distribution and I won't be able to tell you what exactly IS the distribution at all! I know how to use it, but it's just an abstract term to me. How is that any good?
- In the end, I have lots of useless info, but my understanding of the subject is abysmal. I end up as an educated idiot.
- Finally, the stuff I learn at college has NOTHING to do with ANY work at all. In EVERY job, you have to learn stuff that is related to the job - it has almost NOTHING to do with the theory you learn at college. Which brings the question: why do I have to waste so much time there to get the useless knowledge I will NEVER have any use for and which I'll forget in the next few years TOTALLY (to a point where I don't remember a damn thing) !? If it's just for the paper, give me it already and don't waste my DAMN TIME!!

I wish it would be solved by introducing a mandatory "learn how jobs look" at primary school. You pick jobs you're interested in and you're allowed to spend a day or a few days watching how people work in the job you've picked. That would shed some light; seriously, I wasn't aware how biologists work at the places where they can work; I got to know when I was already studying biology in college and I realized it sucks and is boring!
After such courses, you'd more or less know what are you going to do in life; at least you'd know how does it work. In high school, you'd learn the simplified theory needed for the job you've picked: it would focus on understanding the basic concepts; after high school, you'd simply be aware of how things work without any unnecessary advanced knowledge; in the age of internet, you can just check it in google or go to a library if it's more advanced, no need to learn ANYTHING by rote AT ALL.
College would focus on preparing you for your job: NO theory or little theory, a LOT of practice. And it would be a LOT shorter. Like, you'd be a bachelor at the age of 20 or so; without the unnecessary knowledge you'll forget anyway. Besides, if you want it, nobody stops you from learning it by yourself - it shouldn't be mandatory though.

That's how I see it.
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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted October 26, 2009 08:37 AM
Edited by ihor at 08:39, 26 Oct 2009.

Thanks for the replies.

@OhForfSake
I expected your reply .
Rest - 33%. Do you include sleeping here?
Quote:
It depends on what the given person wants (and lusts if the person gives into emotions, etc.)

You answer . The purpose of question also was to know whether you satisfied in your spent time or it is not racional.

I expected your answer about government like that and looking forward to your answer to 7).

@Warmonger
Quote:
No movies, no books, no games - unless they are nessessary or I really need to rest.

For me it's too dificult to avoid. That is good if you cope with this.
You think start working after finishing studying. Logical
Quote:
Family - your argument is invalid
Friends - none
Entertainment - waste of time, however I like to read some worthwile texts and admire fine art.


Why invalid? Didn't you spend time with your relatives? And do you have friends? Entertainment - waste of time???? Maybe, but you need it for sure!
Quote:
I used to be taught many things over and over again, while the others were ommited.

True. In my experience I had the definition of equivalence relation(Mathematics) from about 6 subjects(Math. Analysis, Algebra, Analytic Geometry, Differential equations, ...) Conclusion - the education system is not perfect.

@DoomForge
Quote:
Job/studying is a completely different category imho

I know one person who studies(4 hours per day) and works (5 hours per day). It's me . That's all mostly because of need of money but maybe I will tell about that later.
I mostly agree with all you said on 6) and 7). Maybe our education systems are similar: Ukrainian and Polish(if I don't mix up)

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2009 02:57 PM

Quote:
Yes! the time people WASTE in their 40 hours per week (AT BEST!) work routine is pretty intense. I mean, there are times when you have absolutely NOTHING to do at work but you are OBLIGED to sit on your butt because some retard decided you cannot go home after doing what you are required: you have to sit there for an amount of time. It should be work-based, not time-based: you have something to do, and once you're done, you take your leave. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite.

tell that to people who are asked to be more productive than machines... seriously, they would have to sleep on their workplace...

Quote:
Changing the system and introducing more automatisation would be our salvation: people wouldn't overwork, would have LIFE outside of the work-car-couch-bed-car-work cycle and would develop much richer, interesting personalities overall.

Seriously, it's a big problem. Ask a random corporate worker what he does and you'll see: he works a lot, takes a lot overtime, wastes some hours in traffic jams and home, he's just too tired to do anything else than watching TV, eating and sleeping. Take his job away and he'll become the most boring person on the planet.

We need more self-development, less slavelike work. Seriously.

agreed. actually I'm afraid to work for that exact reason (well, I work, but part time) usually I don't speak with my work mate. when they talk it's always about their work, or about how bad they are paid, or about something bad another workmate did (you know, at work there's always one guy who never does anything wrong and blames everything on his workmates...)
well, anyway they sound boring. it's like you hear them 10 min, and you are under the impression you already know everything about them...

Quote:

No movies, no books, no games - unless they are nessessary or I really need to rest.

Entertainment - waste of time, however I like to read some worthwile texts and admire fine art.



you are crazy almost frightening actually.

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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 26, 2009 09:49 PM

Quote:
Rest - 33%. Do you include sleeping here?

Yes, I tried to look at an average (over the last couple of years) 24 hour day and then divide it into percentage.

Quote:
The purpose of question also was to know whether you satisfied in your spent time or it is not racional.


I guess I'd label my time management as rational, or at least an attempt to use my time rationally.

I try to use as much time as possible, to achieve what I want, which probably can be labelled as study/work, but on the same time, the level of work I get done diminishes with the time I use pr. day, so I try to hit an optimal amount.
This also have the advantage, that I don't drown in work, because I take too many obligations.
The rest of the time, I use as much as possible with family, then friends, and then of course there's all the time for duties, enetertainment, etc., that I place on low priorities, yet always put the same time on.

Quote:
I know one person who studies(4 hours per day) and works (5 hours per day). It's me . That's all mostly because of need of money but maybe I will tell about that later.


That's quite incredible, I don't think I'd be able to do a 9 hours of serious work pr. day.

@Doomforge
About 6), I agree with all your considerations (rozważania?), but I don't understand what it is exactly you want the government to do, isn't it more of a problem of the private company, that they do not realise, that workers do work, and should be measured by said work, and not by time?
Because I agree, work is about doing work, not spending a set time.


About 7), I agree that the system as it is now (in my country at least) seems very faulty, and I'd also like a lot more focus on understanding, but I think each and everyone of us have their own responsibility.

What I think is very important however, is that, every education, should be looked at, as Doomforge replied to 6), that it's not about the time spent, but about the job done, or here, about what you've learned.

First of all, I believe that learning is to gain knowledge, and knowledge is the memory of definitions and the justification, or logical, deduction of consequences of these definitions.
So all in all, learning is the ability to memorize and justify.
I know however many probably will disagree with this, and I'm of course open to arguments that may convince me otherwise.

Please note, there's no absolute truth aspect in the way I define knowledge, all we can ever do is talk about how likely it's something is true, all this means, is that what person A considers as knowledge, person B maybe won't, because they've different limits of when something is probable enough to be considered true.

I however don't know all education systems in the world, so what I'll do is to list the things I believe is either necessary, or a good idea, to implement into an education system, independent of age, and then reflect upon, the teacher needed as well (as it is now, I believe most teachers are pretty much alike, but with about 4 subject each they can teach, what this really lack is pedagogy, or in general, focus on self improvement. It's very important that the teacher, who once were a student, also gets a satisfying job).

So what's very important to start of with, is that before you can learn at maximum efficiency, i.e. having more time for more stuff, you need to make certain that some very general, but essentiel, things are in order.

These are mainly environment (such as light and comfort), rest, a good diet and that the all the persons involved in the education is ready and up for the task, students as well as teachers.

Of course both readyness of the student, rest and food are the parents (and the children themselves) responsibility, but what can be done, is to make it clear, through proper argumentation, why it's important in the first place, both to the parents and the children, and secondly offer, what's currently believed to be optimal, food. Make the food free if necessary, and given the parents disagree, then let it be possible to have a debate where everyone, also the people who supports healthy food, have the possibility to change opinion.

This way, at least a lot more students, who for unknown reason haven't made certain of the most basics, most essentiel part, at least can get some of these covered.

For what environment is about, then certainly this is a very important part, where the system can do a lot.

Having these most basic requirements done, we would already have come a long way in our country, but no, I experience schools either don't seem to care about this subject, or do care, but offers "poor" food at high prices. Especially the lack of breakfast between students at all ages seems quite depressing, and it's no wonder that many people seem to fell asleep from the age of 6 (starting school) to the age of 24 (during lectures at university).

Then again, it's of course not the only factor, but without having this solved in the first place, I think the students will already have a harder time concentrating and remembering what they find important, much similar when you've to go to the toilet, but in the same time, someone is telling you something important, so you hesitate going on the toilet, because you might miss it, but on the other hand, you loose concentration very easily. The toilet problem is easy to solve, just go there before (and if you've these kind of problems in general, training can be done), however the lack of a good diet, that covers the essentiel proteins, vitamins and minerals needed to be able to perform well, is not something you just can train away, or go out and do, it's a habit you need to form, a habit the school most of all can help with, but something you have to do.

Then again, some people seems to do much better than me, eventhough they don't seem to eat very sugar rich material, often drink, and are also often drunk, likewise they often skip breakfast and do what they need to do in the last moment. I can only dream about what efficiency these people would get at, if they'd take a little care of themselves as well.
I could also do a lot better myself of course, I've a bad tendency to forget to eat.

Now when the basics have been covered, which should have a much higher focus in at least my country, I believe, it's time to move onto the more interesting parts.
As written earlier, I believe the real reason we go to school is to learn, or to say in other words, we want some specific information to become our knowledge, so we can use it to reach our goals.
Like doomforge wrote, we should measure in work done (learned), and not in time spend.
Therefore it's very important that we in the first place realise, that our education is a mean to reach our goals, a mean to get/do what we want. Not to make us into a slave of society, a mere "robot" who goes to work, goes home, sleeps, wakes up, goes to work, etc. imprinted since childhood.

So after the most basic premises of efficient learning have been covered, and before actually learning to learn, it's very important that we know what we want, and here the educational system can be of a great help, just like Doomforge writes, via letting us see, at an early age, the different possibilities there is, at the workplace, etc.
Also letting this possibility stay open, and also maybe at a more advanced level as you slowly graduate yourself, so you can truely find out what you want to do.
Not only by being at the workplace of course, also through information of specific jobs, etc.
In our education system, you get to get into, what they call "praktik" once during the "folkeskole" years, at a time, where they haven't even talked to you about what you want, or your possibilities. Of course it's not their responsibility, but to optimize the educational system, it's one of the most important factors to let people find out what they truely want, and all the time have the possibility to look at different things.
After the period of "praktik", you can either choose a direct education for a job, or you can go to further education, where there's no such period, and then you're in university and first after about 3 years you'll get to get out again and see, that's 2 times in 15 years so far.

I got more information when I went with my mother to her work, when I was young.

However here's one great opportunity to really use the power of the internet, through cooperation between the different companies and the education system, you can make the information easy accessible on the internet.
Of course all places would then maybe look like a place where you want to be, so it's also very important that the teachers explains what the different subjects cover, including real life advantages, and as early as possible so people quickly can become independent, and that again you get the chance to see for yourself, frequently (where frequently is as of yet undefined, because in the long run, it'll be up to the company to decide).

But no, what I often see again and again, are students starting at university, dropping off like flies the first year, because they quickly realise that this was not what they wanted, or people after a couple of years of the same old job starts complaining that this was never what they wanted, and starts seeking new roads.
Finally there're the people who stick to what they've put themselves into, no matter what, and after 40 years of work, they just might, but not very often again, tell that they actually really never liked doing their work, and it was just a way to get the roads to meet, so the family could be taken care of, etc., but what they really wanted, they haven't done, and the last 40 years all they've done have pretty much been worked and slept.

So I believe the best the education system can do in this area is to give people the opportunity to reflect over what they want of life early, inform about different philosiphies of life, which together with good supervizing early on (most often at the low age of school, but you see it at grown peoples work as well), would have great possibilities in ending the anarchy (and later hierarchy) of the schoolyard and stopping bullying altogether.

But most often, you see the teacher, either giving up, or attacking the bully with threaths of punishment, in stead of setting up a system, like we have in society, so it can be stopped quickly and effectively, likewise give an early input to how society functions, and again all I believe it takes is information and some kind of "hidden" supervisation early on.

So the focus of the second stage, is to try to get people to realise what they want to achieve.

Now for the third stage, I find it very important to be efficient at learning, and to do so, you have to, as stage 1, be prepared mentally and phsycially, likewise, as of stage 2, you must find the subject important in the first place, and finally you must be efficient in transforming information into knowledge through various techniques.

This is a subject that is not looked at, at all, in the education system of my country, yet if we'd focus on it, I believe we'd find that people would learn much more efficient, meaning shorter time spend, and more stuff learned.

I'm talking about being able to read fast, comprehend fast and efficient, type fast and accurate, write fast, readable and orderly, train concentration, so you can work as long as you want, and train memory so the information that you transfer into knowledge is easily reattainable.

We have classes like gym, where we're active in the school, though these aren't in university, where we've to take care of ourself, but as gym is a great way to actually get your body working, and thereby also increase your ability to both concentrate and remember, it's only a fundament of a pillar laid, without any pillar put in the ground, again the lack of focus makes the effort at gym, of course still positive, but often not as good as it could be.

So an important aspect of knowing what you want, is the independency it brings, which means you should be able to pretty much choose the subjects you want to follow yourself, and the level you want to follow them, likewise how long etc., all after how important you find it.
This way motivation will never lack, but the subjects themselves, in the lower stages of school, often lacks an important factor, which you see in university, and that's the "finding out through real life experimentation part".
Because it's very important that you can actually justify the knowledge you get, which is a very important factor of knowledge.
Justification requires of you to test your information, to use your information, to gain new information, and to learn through experimentation.
Doing so, with the help of a teacher, already at a young age, will most likely be very beneficial.

This have been implented at university, but it still lacks, especially at the lower stages of school.

Finally the ability to justify your knowledge is exactly, what I believe Doomforge is writing about, the ability to understand what is being talked about, so it's not simply formulas and letters on a board, but actually something that gives a good meaning to you, because you know the basics, because you knew early on how to justify your knowledge, and did it.

That way, through the ability to choose your subjects early on, and likewise the ability to justify your knowledge, you'll not end up in university realising you lack the ground knowledge needed to be able to talk the talk of the lecture.

So with the first 4 stages completed:
1) Readyness for learning.
2) Knowing what you want.
3) Ability to learn efficient.
4) Ability to justify your knowledge.
Then it's time to look at the structure of the typical education system in the first place, or to so at how school seems to function.

It's so, that in school, like Doomforge wrote to 6), that you're there to be for a given time span, and after that time span you go home again, independent of the work done.

How it should be, is that you set your own goals, dependent of what you want to achieve, of course with guidance of teacher, and maybe parents (but not the parents decision (important)), and then you try to achieve it, if you achieve it, then you're done, you've learned what you planned to learn the given day, and you do what you otherwise planned.

This way, you'll through trial and error, learn how efficient you're and learn how to plan your day, planning how long you need for learning and planning for other things as well, often planning for a longer basis, and as you get better, you'll go to higher levels, etc.
You'll learn what types of deadlines (of assignments) you can handle, and through the use of the internet, you can often get the job done from home, and in stead of, let the schools be a place, where you can test your knowledge, and thereby justify it.

All in all, learning time management by yourself, in stead of the educational system takes a whole bunch of people and put them in the same room, without any expectation than they grab what they can, for the time randomly set, and then they're up to themselves again.

Of course, teamwork is also important, so far I've only commented the student - teacher relation, but what often will happen is that several students chooces the same level of different subjects, doing so, these can help eachother, via testing eachother, explain to eachother, and teach eachother.

Finally, then how should the level of what the student have achieved through the education system be valued, so given there's not enough jobs for everyone to get to do what they want, that the companies can find out who they want to hire?

Well in stead of hiring through skills, and ending up with the worker who've memorized the formulas, but don't know why they're true, or the worker who doesn't like his job, doesn't care for it, and only does it because this person feels it much be done, then hire through motivation, and get a worker that'll improve greatly over time and increase the level of the other workers as well.

Because often motivation is more important than skill, but that's of course assuming that the motivated guy have got skills from his education, etc.

So the evaluation of the different subjects should be on interest, which will be looked at while doing the study, but most of all in teacher to student talks, to find out if it's something the student truely wants to continue with.

To find out if the skill then truely match, let the companies make an access test, this way they can get the interested/motivated person, with the suitable skill, who can evolve and quickly make the company better.

So again it's up to the companies as well, not only in making it possible to get information about what the different jobs of the different companies are, not only to make certain that the work day is about work done, not time spend, but also to make their own tests, which is what finds out what skills the people have.

I believe that this way would lead in a more efficient way to independecy of eachother and the information you need to achieve what you want.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted October 27, 2009 09:25 AM

Pretty nice stages structure OFFS.

I would made a big accent on 2) - Knowing what you want and 3) - Ability to learn efficient, cause 1) and 4) mostly depends on the student.
Even is material to study very hard, with hard work each student who was able to pass entry exams for specific subject will be able also to understand those formulas, etc. The problem is our memory permanently becomes cluttered with unnessesary thing. Maybe the solution is to give a possibility to students what they want to learn a little bit more early. I mean what for to learn pupils chemistry for 6 years if 95% of them in the future will never use those knowledges. Similar: what for to learn Latin if you are studying at the faculty of mechanics and mathematics. There wasn't quite good mathematicians that time . What for to learn dificult higher mathematics (which is often very abstract) if you are studying at the faculty of computer science. You will probably write programming code with simple logic and will not use differential equations. I don't want to say that those are useless for all, but in ideal I think students then must on their own decide what to learn. There should be a selection between some subjects.
For example you got basic from mathematical analysis(1/2 year). Then you chose:
-This is bull****. I don't want to learn it anymore.
-Nice thing. It will probably help me in the future, I want to know more.

That will help to save time and memory(!) With a help of 3) (more efficency) it could be the bomb.
So the solution to the problems 2), 3) gives us also the partly solution to the problem 4) as well.
It is for sure much more easy to learn something, if you really want to know that and there is noone with a stick near you.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted October 27, 2009 09:37 AM
Edited by Mytical at 09:38, 27 Oct 2009.

Quote:
1) Do you consider the problem of time management important
?
Yes

Quote:
2) How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?

A little bit of both.  Of course I run out of things to work on about midnight when I actually first log on here.  By that time I've done all they require me to do..and then some.

Quote:
3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest. Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
What do you think ideal proportion?


I have very little social life now thanks to ammount of time I work and my illness.  So this is really not a big thing for me.

Recently I heared a lot about time management lessons. They are not free and I haven't visited any.
4) Have you ever visited such lessons? If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?


Never have, and I stink at time management.

Quote:
5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?


I can type up to 65 wpm when motivated (325cpm roughly) without mistakes.  I do thank goodness for automatic spell checking however .  Otherwise see answer to no 4.
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wog_edn
wog_edn

Promising

The Nothingness
posted October 27, 2009 09:55 AM

Quote:
1) Do you consider the problem of time management important?
Sure, but not personally (I have way too much freetime on my hands, so time isn't a problem).

2) How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?
Time is disappointing, really. It moves faster when you have fun and slower when you are bored, it's really not fair
HC is one of the first places I visit when I get home, and it's the only forum I am a member of atm (and the only forum I've stayed a member of for such a long time). So no, not only when bored .. but also just to see if there's anything happening there.

Quote:
3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest. Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
What do you think ideal proportion?

Study: 20 hours per week.
Girlfriend: 48-96 hours per week.
Family: 2-3 hours per week.
PC: Varies alot on the girlfriend really.
Work out: 10-11 hours per week +/- some hours .. depending on girlfriend.

Quote:
4) Have you ever visited such lessons? If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?
Never, and don't think I will either.

Quote:
5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?
Well no, I kinda learned touch-typing by myself ... so that saves me some time at least. Don't really try to do stuff to get better time.

Quote:
7) What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?
The education system is supposed to help every single individual, and adjust the education for their needs and stuff ... when put to the test it really doesn't work very well. Suppose I shouldn't complain when compared to other countries, but still... Norway isn't that fantastic.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 27, 2009 07:52 PM

Quote:
Pretty nice stages structure OFFS.

Thank you.

And yes I agree, 2) and 3) are mostly what the education system can do something about, and also what should therefore have most focus from the education system.

However 1) and 4) should there at least be more information about, having critique towards the information you get was something I was first talked to about when I was 17 years old, of course I didn't believe everything then, but for me, school was this little fearie tale land where you remembered what the teacher said and then you repeated it with other words and got good marks.
Then they burst the bubble, that it's not about being a people pleaser, but about actually getting information you can use to achieve what you want, but they do it so late, it's quite remarkable.

Quote:
The problem is our memory permanently becomes cluttered with unnessesary thing. Maybe the solution is to give a possibility to students what they want to learn a little bit more early.

I think it's very important to make it clear what you want as early as possible and then make it possible to go that direction and still possible to change.

This would also remove the problem of having some classes too early.
I believe if you aren't interested in the subject at the given time you've the class, you won't get the optimal out of the class.
It is also important to note that wants probably will change over time, but eventhough wants changes (and you might regret some knowledge you've gained), then if you'd taken those classes you wanted now (but not back then), you probably would not have got the optimal out of it anyway.
Therefore I think it's very important you first have the classes when you want to have this information as knowledge, that's when you're mature enough I suppose.
Of course there are the most basic things, needed for any class before you can function properly (most likely) stuff like simple math (addition, subtraction, division and multiplication), being able to read and write in a way that you can be understood, etc.
However, I believe most also wants these abilities, I know all from my first class, when we had just begun, wanted to be able to write, read and do the simple math.
However when this was done, many started to not be interested in the classes we had most of the time, and many already knew what they wanted to be.
The education system should, in my opinion, have offered them to also be able to see how their future life then would be, by letting them come to these working spots and also getting information of job security, etc, likewise let them have the classes needed for this kind of education.
After all many of them really didn't need physics, chemistry or biology, nor did they need to be informed about poems, etc., what is today known as being "education formed" (google translate), is in my honest opinion most likely a waste of time, given the person does not what to be "education formed" in the first place, but want to be educated on specific information and get this information transfered into knowledge.

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted October 27, 2009 10:08 PM

only with rellevence,i had once story with pandora in its time.
i posted something,and then suddenly had to leave somewhere for couple of days. i return to find the thread deliting,and me having a penallity. now no one firsted wanted to explain who what why,untill pan did,and apperntly something i wrote,was made to other posters an insulted or something,i cant place my finger qouite,and it was a pandora's box that was full of crap,i got panalised,and thread delited and i had no knowdlge of it. so when pan told me i was suprised but we kind've sorted it out. it tooks us time but we did eventually.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2009 11:15 PM

is that how you manage your time antipaladin?

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted October 28, 2009 08:20 AM
Edited by ihor at 08:26, 28 Oct 2009.

That was anti's turning point so he decided to improve his time management and don't get penalties for nothing.

@Mytical
You have really a lot work, mod duties and cope with it pretty good. Nice time management

@wog_edn
Quote:
Girlfriend: 48-96 hours per week.

That is quite amazing - approximately 10 hours a day with GF. That is 2/3 of day time. Fantastic. You must love her very much.
Quote:
PC: Varies alot on the girlfriend really.
On girlfriend???? Do you have many?

@OFFS
You wrote earlier that you improved your reading, writing and typing. It is pretty obvious how to improve typing - training, training, training. But what about reading/writing? In what way you did it? Is it possible to learn for all?
Can you now read and remember like this guy?
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wog_edn
wog_edn

Promising

The Nothingness
posted October 28, 2009 10:11 AM

Quote:
@wog_edn
Quote:
Girlfriend: 48-96 hours per week.

That is quite amazing - approximately 10 hours a day with GF. That is 2/3 of day time. Fantastic. You must love her very much.
Quote:
PC: Varies alot on the girlfriend really.
On girlfriend???? Do you have many?
She stays over 2-4 days each week .. that's how I get all the time with her and yess I do!
If she's over I am not much in front of the computer .. so yeah (she's over now too )
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted October 28, 2009 10:14 AM

Lol since I mostly am on at work, a signifigant other would not impact my being here.  However, the other things (like the tournaments) would be put on a back burner for them.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 28, 2009 08:23 PM
Edited by ohforfsake at 09:12, 29 Oct 2009.

Quote:
You wrote earlier that you improved your reading, writing and typing. It is pretty obvious how to improve typing - training, training, training. But what about reading/writing? In what way you did it? Is it possible to learn for all?


I think for all what you can learn, training, traning and more training is the key, like you for example told me a couple of months ago about getting good at a subject, etc.

I think it'd be great with a thread where ideas could be changed, those I've are some I found on the internet, and they're very basic, but they helped a lot.

The most important factor, for me at least, have been focusing on what I'm doing, you've to focus on for a given amount of time, before it becomes a habit, and thereby a skill.

Also, if you haven't got it to the automatic level yet, not focusing means you're going automatic, which means you're doing what you always do, and then you don't improve, but when the techniques runs automatically you'll improve without having to focus.

My own reading speed is now about 350-450 wpm, depending on the text in question of course, but before it was much less than the average reader, about 160 wpm, IIRC.

The difference of a factor ~3 is huge, imagine that what you use 6 years of education on reading? That'd be 2 years of education, used on reading.

Of course there's more than reading alone, but it's a major part, and I think it gives the picture, otherwise it's very simple to calculate (just check the amount of books you go through during a class, from that the amount of pages (in the chapters you go through), then use that there's about 800 words / page (depending on the book, so counting and averageing is probably better), then factor up, and you get how much quicker you get through the material)).

For reading, these are the tips I can remember right now (I've written it down somewhere, I do most of them more or less automatic now, but when you can do it automatic, you've got to a place where I believe it can only get better (or you need to find new and better techniques)):

Don't pronounce the words in your head, it often goes as slow as reading out loud and it's unecessary, in general, because the words alone doesn't matter, it's the sentence, and the sentence gives you a tidbid of information, it's the information you need, not to practice how words are pronounced.

Keep on reading, don't go backwards, to reread something, it's a bad habit, and it's a better habit to get the words the first time, so read through and read from the top to the bottom again, if you feel you accidently skipped some stuff, or that you didn't get the general picture.

Read multiple times, first time is the quick overview, often reading the purpose and the conclusion, so you know what kind of information there's to offer, and what you'll end up with knowing.
Then quickly through the various passages, so you pretty much knows how it looks like, what's going to come up, etc., it's something that shouldn't take very much time, and something where you don't need to really think about what it means if it gets very complicated.

Then comes the more throughout reading, where you also takes notes on the same time while reading, this is the part where you try to understand the text, you know already what it wants to tell you, where it ends and how it pretty much looks, now you take the vital part of the information out, the justification of knowledge.

Then do various things, such as assignments, retyping your notes in on the computer both for order (a lost paper to the exam is pretty sad, because it sets you back unecessary, not that you don't know the information, but you need your notes to check up if your information is correct), but also so you go through it again, and justify the logical truthness of the information for others, doing stuff like those at least really helps me getting the stuff into my long term memory and thereby knowledge, and not just unjustified informtion.

About writing, I know about classes that should have had great success with improwing the writing speed of people, but I haven't gone through those, I've however used the same as I did for improving typing.

#1 Being able to write without looking where you write (blind typing/writing).

#2 Have a good technique of actually writing/typing, as it'll most likely safe a lot of time when you can make the necessary moves to type/write faster (for typing, it'd be so you use all 10 fingers when typing, for writing, it's more like holding the pencil correct, and have preordered your paper (mass produced via printer), so you've the right places to write and can move quickly over the paper).

There's probably much more, if I find my documents I'll write them, but otherwise it's most of all about thinking it through, where there can be improvement, etc., I suppose.

Quote:
Can you now read and remember like this guy?


No not at all.

I read the theory about memory on the page, I don't know if I agree with memory being unlimited, but I think the limits of our memory are at such a high level, that 100 years of information is not anything that'll cause overload.

Seing how he can get information that'd otherwise take a year to repeat if he'd taken it one digit at a time, gives me the impression he uses some rather extremely good memory techniques, where he maybe remembers more like an entire picture, than the single digit, then he can focus in on the picture and sort out the digit, though that's of course only a guess (there're some formulas for the digits of Pi, maybe he's rather very good (or have a secret super algoritm) at calculating the single digits and then he knows how many digits there's pr. page in the book, but then again that's also just a guess ).

One of the most important things to remember, except for the focusing part of course (also one of my teachers once said that studies had shown that a 45 minutes work and then a 5-15 minutes break, continues with 45 minutes work, etc., had bee shown to work the best on the common man (which probably can get improved with concentration training)), is that what works for some might not work for others, the important thing is to find the techniques that works for you, until you're at a satisfying level of efficiency, I'd say.

Edit: Also, which also probably is given, it's important that when you set a goal to never give up, I often experience the first couple of tries in learning fails, and I don't improve, but suddenly it's there, and I've improved and often a lot, so it doesn't go continuarly for all, which one might expect.
If however a focused attempt (with breaks, so tiredness doesn't make you do stupid mistakes) doesn't seem to produce the results you wished for, for a longer period, then maybe the problem is that the technique you're trying to learn isn't very effective after all.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted October 29, 2009 10:53 AM

About that guy(Andriy Slyusarchuk)
He indeed has his own remembering technique. He 'scans' the material with a speed approximately 2 seconds per page(unbelievable) and then when somebody asking anything from the huge amount of pages or even say first five words of a phrase Andriy finds information in his memory(lasts few seconds) and then can continue and continue. He says everyone(!!!) could learn such technique and some of his students could also remember hundreads of thousands decimal number of PI. It really could improve system if everyone could do this. Andriy proposed to government to implement his technique in the education system. The problem is government wants only show from him, he is viewed only as national David Coperfield. As I said earlier in another thread "Sometimes I hate our government." Besides he lives in the same city I live .
If such thing would be implemented, then it will be huge improvement to timemanagement of all.
The quesion: Do you think everybody could achieve such remembering characteristics or talent is necessary?
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 29, 2009 03:18 PM

Quote:
If such thing would be implemented, then it will be huge improvement to timemanagement of all.

Most certainly, though I've a hard time believing in some of the info you tell, like reading 2 seconds pr. page, but I've heard about those methods before though, here's a link to what I believe he uses, but I'm not certain http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/10/photoreading/.

It's too bad, if the information is true, that your government won't implement it in the education system, what has his comments been about the subject? It could be nice if he already had made a learning plan, so anyone in principle could follow this (by buying some of his material ) and thereby trying to learn his techniques (you write he has students, so I suppose he's teaching his techniques?).

Quote:
The quesion: Do you think everybody could achieve such remembering characteristics or talent is necessary?

I certainly think everyone can achieve this level, talent only tells how fast, if I didn't believe that, it'd be the same as giving up before even starting.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 02, 2009 04:11 PM

Quote:
I want to remember that "Time is money" as it is said so I consider this topic enough important and don't think jokes are suitable here.

As a basic rule of life, jokes are suitables anywhere.

Quote:
1) Do you consider the problem of time management important?

No.
Quote:
2) How do you find time? Do you sacrifice time for some work and use it to spend time here or do you turn your computer on and visit www.heroescommunity.com only when nothing to do?

I honestly don't come here very often. But if I did, it's because I have time to spare or am waiting for something. Becomes part of a daily routine.
Quote:
3) How could you describe your typical proportion of spent time for job/studying/family/dating/friends/other duties/entartainment/rest. Maybe you add some other categories. And in which category do you place HC? What is HC for you?
What do you think ideal proportion?

..... I -think- that it is a waste of time to think about something like that.
Quote:
Recently I heared a lot about time management lessons. They are not free and I haven't visited any.
4) Have you ever visited such lessons? If so then say whether it helps, if not then just say what do you think about it?

No. Stupid and pointless.
Quote:
5) What have you done to improve your time management? For example maybe you completed a course of touch-typing to achieve typing speed 500cpm and it saves you let's say 3 hours a week. Something more important or more global?

...
Quote:
6) Present your global thoughts what government can do to save time for every single citizen. Maybe some tasks should be done by robots instead of us. What investigations should be done? Do you think this is pressing problem for society?

.......
Robots should take over jobs from humans not to save time, but simply to make human's life more comfortable. That's enough a reason.
Quote:
7) What do you like and don't like in the current education system in your country? Maybe more time should be spent for different subjects. For example learning foreign languages from 6 year old. Is it good?


I tihnk Americans should grasp a basic knowledge of their own language first before moving on to different languages. That said, being from the Netherlands, I think it's important English should be used as a world language.

And philosophy should be taught in primairy school. I'm convinced it would help create more intelligent human beings who actually think instead of worry about silly crap like time management.
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