|
| Thread: How to learn from saves efficiently? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted November 11, 2009 11:10 PM |
|
|
There is no point to continue. Facts:
None of you played old style
Veterans are over now with Heroes MP, what would you expect after 5-6 years of intense playing, you will do same in a few years.
Any confrontation between old and new style is impossible. Have fun!
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 11, 2009 11:41 PM |
|
|
So, if a veteran returns to play heroes and admits level is higher then in TOH would you accept it ?
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 11, 2009 11:46 PM |
|
|
Heh, i didn't realise abusing game weaknesses was regarded as "style".
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 11, 2009 11:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
So, if a veteran returns to play heroes and admits level is higher then in TOH would you accept it ?
Why it is so important to you all to be better than old style or whatever? What game weaknesses are you talking about? The game was perfect until got cut in pieces to fit templates.
Let's imagine I get a second life and I decide to come back to see how high is the level today. I will need at least several months of preparation to get the mechanics of the few templates being played (random is an anachronism here). Months to train how to get the better set up to break some AI monsters earlier than opponent. Months to accept that the strongest army will win, because you don't give me another choice to counter it. Months to accept that the most experimented player will win because he played more that template than me and the tools to counter his experience are banned. Months to adapt to high stats level battles, where only 2 spells are decisive. Months to adapt to the idea that if Tazar on other side I can give up on first week already because he HAS the time to develop him now, while before I could blow him like nothing in early game. I am not sure I will enjoy this long process of being handcuffed on every single step I used before.
I played ALL the saves from WCL thus my above analysis. Now give me a save where Paladin with Conflux gets grail and Maretti still wins, and I will go on my knells to look at that and accept whatever you asking to me 
Quote:
And quit talking about Jebus. We play all kind of templates and we are good on all of them.
Again words. Your record shows the opposite. As soon as you're going for a new template you record is negative. More you play a template better your record is. So memorizing a map is still actual. Like always was.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 09:11 AM |
|
|
Your so called "old style" gaming with no rules is exactly about using gamebreakers like DD, Fly, Carto, Diplo and such. I cannot see why it should be regarded as a style of playing as it is clearly entirely luck dependant and no skill is required. Horde gremlnins guarding the DD scroll is hilarious.
Now, about veterans needing to adapt. Completely not true. Templates were played back then also. A strong player needs no more then a month to catch up as was recently proven by TheSaintBG. We organised an 18 player tournament where everyone must play with everyone else twice, once as a host (picking template and rules) and once as a gueat (playing the template and rules the host picked). After playing 20 or so games TheSaintBG said "the level is much higher then it was before". He still wins hell lot of games as he is a brilliant player but now competition is tougher and games are interesting and unpredictable.
Your so called uber heroes Tazar, Crag Hack and Mephala still lose games even level 20 when their special really shines. So no, when i see Tazar, i do not give up. My record on jebus was negative until a few days ago, this being a fact proving nothing. As my record on balance proves nothing. You see i have negative records on a few other templates and make the great conclusion i cannot play them. First, you may want to check the level of opponents i generally play with, which is pretty high, making almost all my games challenging and fun. Second, i even played some fixed maps recently as to get some inspiration from what was played before my time and i was pretty good on them, however i do not like the fact that after 2-3 games you practically have the whole map memorised. And adapting to each random map is much more difficult even when it is the same template. For over 200 games on balance template the maps has always been interesting to play. This is where the strength of RMG lies, each game is unique. You have to make a different plan for each and every game depending on what is on the map, while on fixed maps it is pretty much predetermined. They, however have the one good quality of being significantly less luck dependent.
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 10:23 AM |
|
|
Quote:
More you play a template better your record is. So memorizing a map is still actual. Like always was.
So you compare memorizing a random created map with a fixed map? On a fixed map, every resource pile and every freaking leprechaun is on exact the same place...every time you play it. While on a random map, only the setup is the same. The area is different from size, form and treasuries. Sometimes more dwellings, sometimes less. Sometimes you have dragons as guards, sometimes nagas. So every game on a template is different, while every game on a fixed map is completely the same.
On a fixed map, you train yourself by playing single player mode and plan perfect chaining etc. This is not possible on a random, coz map differs everytime. Reason why it takes some time on a newer template to get positive records is mostly the values of the guards, because you don't know what to expect, and to check out which areas are important to visit (if there are more...), and which are not.
And we really should stop talking stuff like "Every tactic has a counter tactic if everyhting is allowed". This may be true in theory, but practice shows different. If I have the fastest unit, and this is pretty common when playing Castle, I can hit and run you to death. teh only counter tactic would be shackles. But how often do you find them? Or a few speed arties. But how often do you get them all?
So while I ALWAYS have a very fast unit, you HARDLY find the stuff to counter me.
Same goes with diplomacy. There is NO counter tactic against diplo...except diplo.
Same with dimension door. One has dd scroll guarded by hordes of familiars near his town...how do you counter that?
So let's try to be realistic.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 10:49 AM |
|
|
Seems I speak chinese here, so I will put it short:
@Angelito: how many times you played Frank, Mocara or Prometheus on Seven lakes or Beltway? All your arguments are about random templates, how many times I have to repeat I don't speak about them
@Fank: Saint_BG is not a veteran. When he joined ToH (very late) he played randoms, as today. Seems he is good on templates.
@Hit and Run: Angelito, how many times played you vs Sir_Alkis, Prometheus or Mocara? They could show you why they never could be hit and runned, even if you had phoenix. You can't hit/run what you never find. Also what are the chances you win a battle with one phoenix against 7 fire elementals + a good spell? All is about counter, not speed.
@Both: if you remove all luck from the game, then it is Mike Tyson vs Mike Tyson. I prefer to have the outcome uncertain from the first day.
@Random vs fixed: memorizing a map does not give a decisive advantage, but the optimal usage of the space does. A chess player knows by heart how many squares are on the chessboard, still the game will never be the same. So it was Heroes. Never the same. Those who never tried without rules should not criticize it.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 11:44 AM |
|
Edited by liophy at 12:39, 12 Nov 2009.
|
Why are certain people constantly flooding the forum with the same boring thesis.
|
|
xlnt
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 01:12 PM |
|
Edited by xlnt at 13:13, 12 Nov 2009.
|
TheSaint_BG is not a vet - he just learned the game and went to beat everyone on ToH  but if vet is a random ToH noob that played fixed, no rules - yeah - no wonder why TheSaint_BG kicked so much ass
I play the series from 1997 - the price of loyalty (still have the disc - was a present with my first PC  )- i'm a true vet. I had to pay money in order to play MP - no i-net connection and no own PC for most of us in Bulgaria in the years (1999-2004 at least).. so we had to evolve rules and be hardcore - cos we did MP for money - not same lame online tourney on fixed maps, Sal.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 01:57 PM |
|
|
Sure man, if playing for money you need to ban everything that can surprise you. I hear this argument first from SAG, several times from bulgarian players, so I get the point.
Maybe create a new forum for those who're pissing in their pants about losing their money, thus they ban everything?
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 02:48 PM |
|
|
Salamandre, where you get the energy to do it again and again? Every time you start the same old arguments. Are you unemployed?
Nobody talks for banning everything. I am pretty open actually.
But COMMON SENCE must prevail. Diplo ruins the game. As simple as it is. Full stop.
The same is with open maps.
Meeting on day 3 ruins 90% of the pottential of the game. No time for chainning, no development. Just take it as it is.
Offcourse, i am not the one who will make "no fight before 6 months" rule.
But again - common sence must prevail.
Having arguments about this things, AGAIN and AGAIN, shows that some people just dont have common sence.
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 02:57 PM |
|
|
I am almost physically sensing some remark about "the arrogant bulgarian players" coming to hit this topic.
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
Casihasi
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 03:32 PM |
|
Edited by Casihasi at 15:33, 12 Nov 2009.
|
I never talked aboout Diplo and stuff btw...
iam an old Veteran and i usually played without hit and run, Diplo, Carto, Fly, DD....
all i said is that Jebus sucks. And that the players are not better now, which is a bloody fact. Coz i played with people who mastered this game back than, and there is just no way that your beloved Jebus Rush mid week 2 couldnīt be learned by me now in 5 minutes.
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 03:44 PM |
|
|
And how is that a bloody fact, vet ? Wanna play with me ? I can beat you 9 out of 10 games. Is that gonna prove that you are wrong ?
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 03:49 PM |
|
|
TOH had 100 x players compared to now ???? What the hell ? You had 50 000 active players in TOH ??? Pure CRAP.
Also, i do want to apologise to the creator of the tread for going so much offtopic. I can help with saves if anyone is interesting.
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
Casihasi
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 03:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And how is that a bloody fact, vet ? Wanna play with me ? I can beat you 9 out of 10 games. Is that gonna prove that you are wrong ?
so suddenly you want to play? i thought you chickened out some posts above.
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 03:56 PM |
|
Edited by fank0 at 15:57, 12 Nov 2009.
|
I do not chicken out, man. I know that your level is very low, so i do not want to lose my time. However, if this is gonna serve the purpose of proving you wrong, i am willing to sacrifice some time. I really do not like the way you behave in this forum, being a "vet" no one has ever heard of, not playing the game, flaming active players as noobs and retards. So, yes, let us play. We can even arrange online broadcast so everyone can have a nice laugh at your lame moves.
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
Casihasi
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 04:00 PM |
|
|
My level is very low? I was ranked Top 5 in TOH season 4 (i think).
You are just an arrogant prick lmao, so...iam not using the nick i had back than...ever thought about that?
|
|
fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 04:02 PM |
|
|
I do not care if you use your old nickname or not. What i say applies. Would you care to reveal your "true identity" ?
____________
And you believed that?
|
|
Casihasi
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 12, 2009 04:04 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
