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| Thread: Better Ability vs. Better Starting Skills |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 18, 2009 03:56 PM |
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btw did anyone realize gruumsh is the one-eyed orc god from d&d?
what does that say about kragh hack!!?? 
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 18, 2009 04:21 PM |
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So...what about dwarfs?
Which would u pick?consider ability vs skillz!
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 18, 2009 08:44 PM |
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I'm with Kispagat on this one. And do understand what sq means when he says Orsons meatballs are dangerous. At least a dozen times I've seen replays where those zombies are the last thing moving on the battle field. I think what is so particular about his ability is taht it buffs up units which are already very enduring by nature, and against necromancers you certainly dont want the battle to take too long. Those zombies can be real life-savers once they hold themselves long enough.
About Kaspar as a viable choice, I have my sincere doubts. The only ocasions in which I've seen Kasparrush working was on very small maps such as Former Friends. But again, in a game which is expected to last less then 2 weeks, any war machine hero has an edge. Once the map is a bit larger, Dragon Pass, or similar, I've managed to kick Kaspars ass more often than not. About basing the whole strategy of a match on mentoring, I think it sounds a bit like a waste of time, since Kaspar is not better than Naadir at creeping anyway. But again, my friends and I rarely rely on mentoring on our games, so im not experienced on it.
Any thoughts on Kaspar as a main hero, Kispagat?
W.
P.S - I don't play dwarves. Sorry there, Pei. I cannot offer much advice here.
P.S 2 - Grummsh is the orc god of slaughter on D&D. And Kraghs original name was also something similar. That was probably an unfortunate phonetic coincidence, and possible reason why Ubisoft chenged Kraghs name to its current version. Again, Grummsh DOES sound very orcish, dont you think?
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted November 19, 2009 01:49 PM |
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Quote:
Any thoughts on Kaspar as a main hero, Kispagat?
I agree with you. On small maps, ye, certainly. Bigger maps I dont think its a good decision.
I dont think his special is powerful, and I do not like, and a bit underestimate war machines as a skill for necro. Defence, dark, summoning, logs, enlightment is the way I like to play necro, dont know which could be substituted with wm.
Therefore on bigger maps I chose him if I can mentor someone else or I can mentor wm out before final.
And not just you get a bad main hero, but meanwhile you loose a great secondary if you play with Kaspar as a main.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 19, 2009 09:10 PM |
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Thanks for the considerations, Kispagat.
I relate to your skill choices as well. Although sometimes I've had lovely experiences with Orson with summon magic only, and with some other worthy skill pick, such as luck, to replace dark. The meatballs can certainly deliver some punishment when those rainbows show up.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 20, 2009 02:08 AM |
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which kind of zombies do you use?
does enraged help them much?
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 20, 2009 04:03 PM |
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I dont upgrade zombies at all...at least not until im pulling gold out of my...hat. And IF i upgrade, then i choose the second UPG cause it boosts DEF and LIFE while the other one is more focused on attack...and i dont know if orson plus luck make zombies good attackers as it is said but i just dont like to rely on a (6/7) initiave creature attack.
But i love ghosts if u ask me Don Fauch!
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rottenvenetic
Known Hero
Derusticated
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posted November 21, 2009 06:42 PM |
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Quote:
which kind of zombies do you use?
does enraged help them much?
Enrage can be somewhat useful if, in a close battle, you are left with zombies as your main power stack, but they will always be crippled by their very bad initiative.
Aside from that, I use Rot Zombies; their festering aura and superior fortitude is much better suited to their role. Considering numbers they are the toughest level 2 unit to bring down (blood sisters and wind dancers lose out due to numbers and the agility nerf - and both are priority targets unlike the Rot Zombies).
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In the darkness, a blind man is the best guide; in an age of madness, look to the madman to lead the way.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 22, 2009 09:33 PM |
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Hi there,
So, Fauch, finally answering the question. I normally use disease zombies when playing Orson. The reasons are rather simple.
1 - Zombies are slow and have bad initiative. You dont expect them to assault opponent units that frequently. You are most likely being the target of attacks by faster units, and will take a long while before they can retaliate again due to their low ini. That basically means the number of times a zombie hits is rather low and weakening strike becomes rather useless. Disease zombies on the other hand weaken opponents by their mere auras, independent of wether they hit or not, and I consider that to be a great advantage.
2 - When I play Orson I wan't zombies to tolerate as much punishment as they can, so I can prolong the game and abuse mark of the necromancer + dark/ summon magic. Each defense and hit point counts. Two extra hit points per zombie is just lovely.
Conclusion: I take disease zombies over the plague ones everyday, especially when playing Orson.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2009 12:58 AM |
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Quote:
Aside from that, I use Rot Zombies; their festering aura and superior fortitude is much better suited to their role. Considering numbers they are the toughest level 2 unit to bring down
not the obsidian gargoyles? they even have elemental immunities. in another hand, can't be resurrected.
about the plague zombi? since you can expect that what will remain at the end of the battle is a stack of tanks on each side, wouldn't the cumulative effects of weakness be useful in that case? of course it would only be useful at the end of the battle, but with the low init of the zombi, I suppose it's not hard to stay away from the mephitic aura most of the time, except at the end of the battle when you have to fight zombies hand to hand with your last stack.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 23, 2009 06:36 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:40, 23 Nov 2009.
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Ok, first to admit I am not so good a Necro player..so some interesting questions. Necro creeping is pretty much about not loosing any units, or loosing very few (raising dead, etc). Although it has a good chance for most Necros, you can't be guaranteed to get Motn early (unless there is a hero that starts with it?).
Now this being the case, I fail to see how Kaspar would be a bad idea. (Maybe this is why I am terrible at Necro?). Free non hp reducing raise..gives a bonus to one of the cheaper undead (and one of the more frequent offered) their is (for early creeping, of course you want to move to stronger when posible). Balista is slightly stronger..so that helps creeping a bit also.
Late game, with a horde of zombies, if he gets Arcane Armor, they can be an absolute beast to take down (throw a Motn on them after an AA and watch the fun). So my question is..what am I missing? Sure the zombies are rather slow, so they won't be a priority, but if they are the last stack standing..they can last a LONG time.
If I could remember the names of the Dwarves and their specials .. I would be able to give some recomendations. Ebba I know, and she is decent. I am horrible at names though.
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Message received.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 23, 2009 04:08 PM |
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I dont love the idea of wasting a skill on ballistics, Kaspar´s ballista could help at the beggining but necro has a good start game imo.
His special is ok but the first aid...its only to boost his special and i dont like having less choice of skills.
In a necro i usually want summoning and dark. If i have ballistics PLUS f.aid then there is not much of a choice for the rest of the skills.
It is also true that necro´s problem is mana and his strenght is magic. So, if you build a necro with little mana & no motn then you will be indeed surprising ur enemy but will also be dead meat.
Pick defense so as to endure in battle is never a bad idea. This is why orson is as good as they say it is.
Having defense allows you to have vitality & protection which i think are very good, specially cause u will have a large army.
I like to improve heroe´s init to cast spells so i also pick Sorcery. Im going for magic insight+boneward+arcane training or mana reg.
I love to think that there is no preset configuration for a heroe to success so u can play with skills & perks to surprise ur enemy.
Having enlightnment is a must in my game,and even more if u dont get motn.
If mentoring is allowed then dark pool will be no problem.
This is a brief idea, not the BEST but my gameplay.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 23, 2009 05:17 PM |
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Quote:
Now this being the case, I fail to see how Kaspar would be a bad idea. (Maybe this is why I am terrible at Necro?). Free non hp reducing raise..gives a bonus to one of the cheaper undead (and one of the more frequent offered) their is (for early creeping, of course you want to move to stronger when posible). Balista is slightly stronger..so that helps creeping a bit also.
Hi there Mytical. I think the only way to understand why this theory will not work is playing Necropolis on multiplayer games a couple of times. I'll try to offer a bit of insight on it though.
Lets say Kaspar manages to prevent the loss of 52 skeletons, 12 zombies and 5 ghosts on early game by means of using his healing tent (which is to my standarts a REALLY turbulent and messy early game with awful losses). Do you really think those units will be determining to your victory on a last combat?
1 - If the final combat happens on week two, then HELL YEAH, those 52 skellies make a WORLD of difference. They are pivotal. Besides that, a tent raising some 100 skellies during the fight while ballista pushes some couple of dozens of damage makes you a dreadful opponent.
2 - Now lets assume the final battle happens on week 4-5. Will your opponents look impressed when you use your tent to raise 100 skellies, or 3 wraiths, or the like? HELL NO. They will run you over like there was no tomorrow. And what about the ballista that will be pushing some nice 100dmg shots? Ballistas profit from attack and knowledge. Two weak spots of necros. Even under VERY lucky circumstances it still makes a poor skill choice (especially compared to other skills that can be defining, such as luck, logistics, enlightment, defense... Also not impressive.
Necropolis has a weak mid-late and late game. At the final combat, against just about any faction, you will be struggling to survive (which always makes it so sweet  ), you can simply not afford to waste a skill slot.
Quote:
Late game, with a horde of zombies, if he gets Arcane Armor, they can be an absolute beast to take down (throw a Motn on them after an AA and watch the fun). So my question is..what am I missing? Sure the zombies are rather slow, so they won't be a priority, but if they are the last stack standing..they can last a LONG time.
Thats when Orson comes into play 
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 23, 2009 07:22 PM |
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Ok, I can understand that, but won't those 52 skeletons (etc) help with creeping? Which would, if I understand the concept mean you are able to take slightly stronger creatures stacks earlier. Means more experience, earlier creatures from raises (which increases able to take stronger creatures earlier..causing a increasing spiral), and let you creep further out? Now I realise that the type of raising done will limit it a bit, making such a bit weaker then if they could raise unlimted creatures, but in the end would you have risen slightly more creatures?
As for combat a few more creatures that can use harm touch can make a difference indeed. However, I will take your word for it, as mine is mostly theorycrafting..and yours is mostly experience. Experience trumps theorycrafting every day.
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Message received.
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 23, 2009 07:38 PM |
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Edited by ebbafan at 19:43, 23 Nov 2009.
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i've found kaspar to be very effective when playing heroic and you are using him as a main for a different faction. i was recently playing haven, and armed with some crossbowmen, i pretty much swept the map with 0 haven losses, and mentored out a super klaus that was several levels higher than him. naadir's special is very good later on(esp w/ last stand), but i prefer kaspar for rushing.
as for dwarves, my take on them are that they are a defensive mage-type, as opposed to dark elves, which are offensive mage-types.
i like ebba because of the starting skill tactics and attack, which are useful for both creeping and the formation specials. however, ingvar specializes on the dwarves' strength and has a great special as well as the easiest path to the ultimate. other dwarves' specials are generally not that good: brand, svea, inga, helmar very situational. karli is good because of luck and erling has sorcery
edit: i would like to add that helmar is good in fast duels at the end because he essentially gets a free mass righteous might, and that extra attack is nothing to sneer at.
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