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| Thread: Alternative upgrades: exceptions possible? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 23, 2010 04:42 PM |
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Alternative upgrades: exceptions possible?
Hi there, long time no see (mostly because I rarely have questions to make that aren't already proposed and answered by someone else, so I just lurk here reading).
I'm on shortage of living opponents lately, thus I decided to go with TotE campaigns. As I'm playing Stronghold currently (hanging around with Gotai, Kujin and such) I noticed something.
There's somehow an unanimous consensus around many alternate upgrades (wind dancers > war dancers, arcane archers > master hunters, etc....). In fact, many of us disliked the alternate upgrades exactly because many of them where strictly better than others, making choices quite shallow.
In Stronghold's case Earth Daughters, Executioners and Untamed Cyclops are generally agreed as the best choices. However, while I find this to be generally true, I managed to get away with a few sieges by choosing to defend with Sky Daughters, Chieftains and Bloodeyed Cyclops instead (reasoning; Earth D. couldn't have abused their superiority in fight anyway, so I had all the time to sac some trappers and use Sky D. as additional shooters; Chieftains boost your group, and Bloodeyed decrease the opponent's offense. Lastly, all those altern. upg. are generally more resistent)
So I (think I) stumbled into a particular case where the universally agreed criteria (maybe) didn't apply (or at least I had this impression).
I wonder if this happens more often than one would think, in which case the alternate upg. are less shallow than some playersw thought.
For instance I even heard that, with Unicorn Bow, master hunters become a better choice than the usually better arcane archers. Some find assassins to be better in sieges than stalkers, and so gremlin masters rather than saboteurs when defending a city. Etc.
What do you guys think? Are there cases, in your experience, when altern. upg. offer some interesting variations to the rule of thumb?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 23, 2010 07:07 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:09, 23 Jan 2010.
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Welcome back Momo 
Only case you may want to use sky daughters is with refined mana or when it's week of magic so you can start with chain lightning from the start. Azzie has also shown how lovely that works with Sar Issus set for +50% spellpower. What is more reasonable though is if you skip paokai and you have a second stack of shamans for slow/haste. Then sky daughters are better since they start with more mana.
Executioners I don't actually use as often. Rule of the thumb for me is against academy, dungeon and sometimes fortress since they are kinda forced to charge ahead and die if the opponent has high defense or you cannot attack the right unit. These guys are better for taking down weaker stacks until their rage goes up a bit. or when enemy defense is low. Chiftains however do not care, they can spend a few turns in the back boosting centaur/cyclops/shaman turn while they gain rage from warcries and then charge ahead. More hp, eventually higher initiative and more importantly not your own doom against dark. In case of centaurs making them act before the opponent can be vital, esp against arcanes.
Untamed I also do not use as often and with good reason. If someone charges me first with tactics and maybe aura of swiftness to attack from the side the retaliation will kill a good number of your own units. Or if it gets frenzied/seduced etc. Other reason? +1 speed, +10 hp and -3 luck from bloodeyed. Untamed can still be awesome but many races can get dark easily so..
Btw arcanes are usually still better, even if masters have the bow. But more importantly they have extra init and defense reduction so case closed.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted January 23, 2010 07:12 PM |
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Elvin when was the last time you sieged a castle? 
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 23, 2010 07:21 PM |
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I can't even remember! Must have been in a campaign a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted January 23, 2010 08:57 PM |
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Quote:
Only case you may want to use sky daughters is with refined mana or when it's week of magic so you can start with chain lightning from the start. Azzie has also shown how lovely that works with Sar Issus set for +50% spellpower.
I used them vs Orson once and it was much fun when they actually lasted (and gobbos too ) till the end of battle with lvl3 rage - 4x spellpower = Warlock-like 1000 dmg chain lightning 
It's most satisfing if you manage to put the unused alternative to good work
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 23, 2010 09:08 PM |
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And not surprisingly it's in the top replays of the season 
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 24, 2010 12:12 AM |
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Quote:
...In Stronghold's case Earth Daughters, Executioners and Untamed Cyclops are generally agreed as the best choices...with Unicorn Bow, master hunters become a better choice than the usually better arcane archers...
um...I didn't know execs & unatmed are generally agreed as best choices ...but ofc it is somehow skewered against non-living opponent or creeping monsters who would typically not cast PM/frenzy.
Sadly even with unihorn corn bow, AAs can still be better then MHs due to init & piercing high defence (unless enemy is hero-less or has minimal defence)...however in the case of marksmen...
I've seen many use champs but imo, pallys are better due to +4def & champs rarely have a chance to significantly double-skewer & would die rather easier
And yeah in defensive batl or where gremlin dmg is pitiful compared to others or Razzak, MGs raise golems ability can be better.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted January 24, 2010 02:39 AM |
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I find the initiative reset of the Master Hunter to be very useful. It can really disable a key unit at a key time.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2010 02:54 AM |
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Quote:
And yeah in defensive batl or where gremlin dmg is pitiful compared to others or Razzak, MGs raise golems ability can be better.
but saboteurs are the fastest shooters in the game.
with havez (I think he is the one specialized in gremlins), the attack perk frenzy, and the bloody necklace (I think), they might deal some good damage to enemy shooters before they can act
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ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted January 25, 2010 08:45 AM |
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I remember this thread discussing the conventional favourites of alternates for all races.
I kind of disagreed with Haven's "voted" favourites. Results were something like:
Brutes > Conscripts
Crossbow > Marksmen
Vindicators > Squires
Battle Griffins > Imperial Griffins
Zealots = Inquisitors
Champions > Paladins
Seraphs > Archangels
I would say the only outright pawnage would be Crossbow > Marksmen. The other tiers are all situational. Depending on the spells I get, skillsets and environment requirements.
On Dougal, I would take Squires. Vindicators can pile up decent damage yes, but they're often too slow and the crossbowmen will finish off most units before reaching the backlines. Unless you're on your final epic battle. But still, I'd just use squires to shield the shooters, and possibly bash any units that try to reach out the shooters. If the creeping stage has too many flyers or shooters, I'll go vindicators then.
On Klaus, if I get mass Divine Strength, then I'll use Seraphs. Otherwise it's a combi of Champions + Archangels. Archangels will never inflict damage as close as Champions' under Klaus. So I just keep them for rez and perhaps to attack shooters during a siege. Tank and perhaps occassional additional damage.
I would always go for Inquisitors over Zealots. They have more versatile spells depending on situations.
In most cases I'll keep a small stack of Paladins for healing, and if going against a necromancer, probably Paladins all the way in case he/she has Frenzy.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2010 01:20 PM |
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@Elvin:
Just for clarity, suggesting to skip paokais is implying that you think paokais are useless when defending from a siege (or, less useful than sky d. anyway) or, that you think paokai is always a poor creature?
Because I'm not sure I'd agree with the latter...
Quote:
um...I didn't know execs & unatmed are generally agreed as best choices...but ofc it is somehow skewered against non-living opponent or creeping monsters who would typically not cast PM/frenzy.
Uhhhm as far as I know, yes they are generally aknowledged as the best choices, due to superior attack values.
I find myself uneasy with untamed honestly, but given that I don't play Stronghold outside of campaigns and my few partners also dislike them, my experience with them is minimal, so I used to stick with the majority and went for untamed (always trying to put all other troops dinstant from them). Plus, I seem unable to use untamed to wreck the shooting keeps -I even started to wonder if maybe untamed CANNOT destroy keeps- which makes untamed even less appealing.
Basically there are some alt. upg. that are balanced and leave room for debate (say Seraphs/Archangels, Archlich/Lich Master, etc.), some where debate has little relevance anyway (Brute/Conscripts, for instance), and some where the worse upg. gets better in a given situation (see Pitlords, Skeleton Archers, maybe Sky Daughters). All these packed together are quite the minority, while most alt. upg. are at Sylvan's level of (no) choice. Or so most people say - still, it would be interesting to see if more and more unconventional choices arise with time.
I nonetheless think we'll sadly never see someone proving us that wind dancers and arcance archers aren't always stronger (I also hate that cerulean elves are stronger, cerulean doesn't look good on elvish clothing). Bad game-design is bad.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2010 01:39 PM |
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Nope but sometimes 2 stacks of shamans for slow/haste can work better. A matter of cost/effectiveness ratio as well as situational.
Quote:
I nonetheless think we'll sadly never see someone proving us that wind dancers and arcance archers aren't always stronger
Had at least one game(out of several hundreds ) where wardancers proved superior, they kept getting morale and butchered opponent dungeon  Remember that one Azzie? And there was someone that did the math for master hunters possibly dealing more damage than arcanes but it's like 1% of the cases and that is including unicorn bow/close range.
Rule of the thumb is don't even try. Only case I find master hunters appealing was when I had archer's dream that made freezing effect imbued ballista and the hunters act swiftly, helped stun the incoming orcs.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2010 01:49 PM |
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Speaking of separate stacks, I once tried to skip zombies and bone dragons (I play necro often). I used skelly warriors. as tanks protecting skellie archers, and having stacks of both lich upgrades. Worked really good (should be noted that I applied this when I started having some numerical force to work with like 400 archers and 300 warriors or so).
However, one friend of mine argued that this approach was wrong 'cause:
1. at some point, when you're done creeping, you should just drop archers for warriors period.
2. zombies are better tanks anyway (if not better to protect other units).
3. splitting liches make them do less damage (that is, when I'm not casting spells or shooting at different targets, in which case it's obvious, he speaks of when you focus both stacks on a single target).
4. lategame, having spectral dragons (with boosted growth) is still better than not having it.
What do you think?
(I strongly disagree with point 4, dragons are just too inefficient in a cost/quality scale; it's true that they are somehow on par with boosted growth, but building three buildings to have a somehow on par, extremely costy unit doesn't sound like a good deal)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2010 02:17 PM |
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In creeping all you need is 1 skeleton warrior, stack of archers, split zombie fodder early and wights/lich masters later. Liches aren't actually needed but they save you time and mana in raising dead. What you have in final battle is irrelevant, you'll eventually have to switch or return to upgrade, maybe use chaining for that.
By week 4 splitting liches can be nice but you don't have to split them evenly. If you want shooting power you keep big stack of archliches and a smaller one for casting only, if you want resurrecting power you get big lich master stack with small archlich stack for cursing. Either way I wouldn't expect to shoot more than 1-2 times if you are even allowed to shoot.
And yes spectral dragons are worth it beyond week 5, lovely cursing meatshields. That is especially true if you get lvl 7 generator, often encountered in maps I've played. Earlier though all those resources can go to mage guild and upgrades so not that hot. Another thing to consider is that necro in lategame is at severe disadvantage against a good might force, you need all the meat you can afford.
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted January 27, 2010 03:39 AM |
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This is a very broad topic, hard to answer in general. What I can say is for Haven, I usually go for original upgrades for their annoying abilities.
Exception:
a) crossbowman > marksman for races with low-defense heroes
b) zealots > inquisitors if you know your paladins will get hit by puppet master (you don't cast dispel, you smack them, much higher chances to trigger, especially with soldier's luck).
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2010 10:34 PM |
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Quote:
This is a very broad topic, hard to answer in general. What I can say is for Haven, I usually go for original upgrades for their annoying abilities.
Hmmm, true, but to only to an extent. You have eight faction with seven tiers each, means 56 possible source of debates.
...actually I realized while writing it that it is more of a vast topic that I thought)
However, some debates have already been done to death, especially early game VS late game (i.e. skellie a. VS skellie w.), or attack vs. defense (i.e. Seraph VS Archangel, Magma VS Lava, Lich Master vs Archlich and probably many others), some just aren't interesting anyway (peasants upgrades, zombie upgrades, mino upgrades)...
In the end, there are only few cases where a consistant crowd labels one as the hands-down-better upgrade and some minoritarian voice suggest that common sense had it wrong, and some have already been discussed here.
Speaking of wich, I recall someone on these boards claiming ImplosionEarth Immunity and some other vague factors make Emerald Dragon a just as valid choice, and sometimes even better, than Crystal Dragon, wich I often heard of as "best creature in the game". So, wich one it is?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 31, 2010 12:00 AM |
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Umm there are few cases that are actually a matter of choice, most upgrades are simply better or always better vs x faction. Or that may work sweet having both like a small stack of squires and a bigger of vindicators under Laszlo, a stack of zealots and one of inquisitors for good buffing action etc.
Crystal dragon is typically better to get when you have 3 or more luck, starting with 3 stacks hurt is a pretty good gamble. Even so it can reach units that might otherwise have been blocked if you tried to attack them with firebreath. Firebreath is more reliable but easier to guard against and can be turned against you if you drop down your guard a bit.
About the immunity that makes it the 'safer' choice against dungeon and potentially necro, decay can be nasty with high initiative.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2010 02:07 PM |
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Uh-uhmmm, if I understood correctly, are you implying that Decay is as dangerous to emeralds as Implosion would be to crystals? Because nobody in my group (I'll point out once again that my group is far from top-notch) ever uses Decay once it acquired some destructive spell...
Speaking again of splitting stacks, it's true that you need some cannon fodder in lategame (specifically, splitting Lich prevents you having Ghost Dragons) but:
1. building and purchasing X troops often means not purchasing other troops in early and late game. It's better to have 20 Liches in two stacks than 10 Liches and 1-2 Ghost Dragons you possibly can't even buy.
2. in Necro's case you should anyway win or gain the upper hand (say, another town) before that point, which results in me never having Ghost Dragons in the deciding battle, though I may purchase them later.
I also notice that AI follows a similar scheme with Inferno, always having Pit Lords and Pit Spawns.
The chance of skipping a tier (and therefore having more room for both alt. upg.) certainly adds a lot of room for customization, though I can't think of many examples where this is/should be applied.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 31, 2010 02:43 PM |
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Decay is an earth spell so you misunderstood my post.
Also I did not specify lategame, in lategame you get what you can according to the map. Normally you can buy everything since necro is cheap as hell, of course in most maps you can rush. Others you can't fight before week 5.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2010 03:21 PM |
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Quote:
Decay is an earth spell so you misunderstood my post.
Oh. Sorry. I thought Decay was a non-elemental dark spell.
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