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| Thread: War in Afghanistan |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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baklava
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posted February 15, 2010 04:02 PM |
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JJ, did you just compare the breakup of Yugoslavia to the World Wars, lol?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 15, 2010 04:12 PM |
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What I want to tell you is, that this here:Quote:
Like one day the Americans decided that Yugoslavia is bad and should be bombed and split up, and morons like my government agreed to that ****.
is not only off-topic, but nonsense as well. Yugoslavia split up on its own. There were referendums in all partial republics, and they simply decided to split off with a vast, vast majority, even if the Serbian minority population in those parts boycotted the elections. Which wasn't that much of a deal considering that Yugoslavia was an artificial construct anyway that made it for 80 years only.
And that it WAS an artificial construct where lots of peoples without real bonds lived, I think that one was proven in the ensuing wars, where a lot of atrocities happened.
Look on the bright side, though: at the European Song Contest there is now a plethora of countries where once were only a handful that can vote for each other, and in sports - basically all team events like football, handball, basketball and so on - you now have a couple of good teams now where before was just one.
EDIT: Which is why I made the comparison with Germany. To show the absurdity of it, just for clarification.
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watcher83
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posted February 15, 2010 04:16 PM |
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so the bombing had nothing to do with the decision?
USA is the biggest artificial construct.
I wonder how many natives were asked if they want their lands to be part of the US
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baklava
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posted February 15, 2010 04:25 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 16:31, 15 Feb 2010.
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The bombing was related to the Kosovo issue which happened a few years later...
Here's the chart:
Breakup - early to mid-90s - international sanctions imposed on Serbia and Montenegro (the remnants of Yugoslavia), hyperinflation, foreign pressure to sign a peace treaty benefiting the separatist nations
Kosovo - 1999 - NATO bombing, the setup of the Bondsteel base in Kosovo (the largest US base in Europe)
Montenegro - 2006 - Montenegro separates itself from Serbia, the referendum being 55% in favour and 45% against the separation
Kosovo again - 2008 - the province of Kosovo "officially" breaks off from Serbia
Sorry for the off-topic, just trying to clear up what happened when 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted February 15, 2010 04:32 PM |
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What bombings and what decision? Are you suggesting the US bombed Yugoslavia in 1991 or so, and the people of Slovenia, Croatia, Mazedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia-Herzegowina were forced to vote for the split?
There was a NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999, for a couple of months.
You can discuss whether that bombing was rightful or not, but that bombing obviously has nothing to do with the split. The split occurred much earlier - but there were those who didn't want to accept that.
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baklava
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posted February 15, 2010 04:43 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 16:45, 15 Feb 2010.
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Though the bombing didn't have much to do with the first breakup, it did have a lot to do with the split between Serbia and Kosovo - which wasn't a republic.
And Montenegro separated 10 years after the official breakup...
Sigh. Never mind. Let's just drop the subject.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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ohforfsake
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posted February 15, 2010 04:59 PM |
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*drops the subject*
Like this?
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baklava
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posted February 15, 2010 05:07 PM |
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Be careful with that, damnit, you almost dropped it on your freaking leg
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Vlaad
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posted February 15, 2010 10:47 PM |
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The country NATO bombed was still called Yugoslavia, although it consisted of Serbia and Montenegro only. Hence the confusion.
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Corribus
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posted February 15, 2010 11:02 PM |
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Quote:
I wonder how many natives were asked if they want their lands to be part of the US
Huh?
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DagothGares
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posted February 15, 2010 11:04 PM |
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Quote:
an artificial construct
All countries are an artificial construct.
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watcher83
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posted February 15, 2010 11:15 PM |
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what I meant was that after the bombing, kosovo claimed independence and that Montenegro chose to be independent under the UK's protective wing.
Never mentioned the break up in 1991 or something, said Yugoslavia because Serbia&Muntenegru is a long name, although there could be something to discuss about that break up too, concerning foreign influence, because if I'm not mistaking it was a Croatian who unified it in the first place.
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baklava
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posted February 15, 2010 11:58 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 00:08, 16 Feb 2010.
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Actually, he just took it over after WW2...
There was a kingdom of Yugoslavia before him.
Seriously now, this thread's about Afghanistan.
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money,
you got the blues."
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ohforfsake
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posted February 16, 2010 01:56 AM |
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My leg is a freak
Sorry for derailing.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2010 08:24 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
an artificial construct
All countries are an artificial construct.
Oh, please.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 16, 2010 01:38 PM |
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Something that make me wonders.
Aren't the boarders of countries not relatively arbitrary? I mean what difference would it really make if every single city was a country, if every single continent was a united country or if every single state were a country?
Aren't boarders not only doing bad in making the unequalness more and more dominant around the world, after all I care little more for a dane than I do for someone from Senegal or a mouse for that matter.
Of course this is not true for those I love and/or like, they stand in a special place for me.
But I can't see why I should think of a dane as my fellowman and someone from Poland as a foreigner, we are all alive and that should in my honest opinion me enough in common to be able to find a common goal and get over all that "you may not get more than me" talk that is only reducing.
Yeah I suppose this was quite a lot of nothing, but anyway, I still don't understand the idea of boarders, for me they seem so randomly and unneeded.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2010 01:52 PM |
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Historic "growth".
For one, language. A Pole and a Dane can't communicate, because the speak different languages.
Moreover they may have a very different cultural heritage with all kinds of differencies.
So there are historical borders that have been developed over many centuries.
Others are indeed arbitrary in comparison, and the initial creation of Yuigoslavia WAS such an arbitrary act (like many borders in Africa are arbitrary as well, or State borders within the US).
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ohforfsake
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posted February 16, 2010 02:08 PM |
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I find your arguments very good, I agree on the communication part, I always wondered why we talk different langauge actually, to me it seems unnecessary, to others it is something exciting they do not want to remove.
But I guess that, as you say with the boarders developing over past centuries, so did langauge, as people were seperated over great distances and therefore naturally were to decide upon different actions, giving thereby birth to different cultures.
I think as the world have become more and more open, we, the people of the world, goes towards a more and more common place in all these things, because now we are much more like neighbours than I think we ever were before.
I remember I was once told about a language, esperaldo, or something like that, that was supposed to be the common language for either Europe or the entire world, anyway this langauge did not survive, but I think we'll get closer and closer to such a language, if anything I'd guess it'd be english as it is not something you just agree upon over night unless you've very convincing arguments.
But yes, earlier I think, valuta was also a reason, on the positive hand that seems to be changing as well with the euros.
So I guess that as time goes and as long as the world is as open (easy information sharing) as today, what earlier defined people through different cultures will vanish and we'll act much more like a single union.
I understand the fear of your saying getting diminished into nothingness, but isn't it so already? Is it really that big of a difference if there are 6 billion who have a say or if it is 0.5 billion? The fear of "communist" ideas and "racists" growths are also relevant, but I only think such ideas would be able to develop if such a union where created too early.
Also, though off topic, this is also why I never really liked the idea of democracy that says the many decides over the few, for me it must be seperated what questions are to be answered in the first place, what is relevant, it is after all, at least in my opinion, not relevant if you can have a minoret in a country or if your neighbour are allowed to walk naked in his own house. But that is getting very off topic I think.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2010 02:29 PM |
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Well, for the question of borders this is exactly what is happening in the EU.
If you look about the topics that are about the EU you'll find that not many are in favor of the EU though.
I have been and still am.
I agree that national states have now reached the end of their usefulness; instead it's about time that basic community units become smaller, while being part of the EU as the only organisation over that.
Yugoslavia just did that.
Belgium is a good example where you COULD split a country into Flandern and Wallonia (there is a very small third part that would go to something else - with the EU you basically don't need national states anymore.
One official union language - should be English for practical reasons - plus the origional language of the county in question - Flamish, for example.
But that's just me, of course. It would mean a general restructuring process like the one that happened in Yugoslavia all over the EU, and I don't think that will happen fast.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 16, 2010 02:44 PM |
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Quote:
But that's just me, of course.
No, I find your suggestions very reasonable.
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