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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 02:03 PM |
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Why would you be annoyed if your kids are making weapons? Weapons are very useful. It's not like they pull the trigger. A country without weapons and army is a potential slave one.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 10, 2011 02:17 PM |
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This is all I have time to address at the moment, but I'll comment on other things that have been said later.
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THE BIBLE (OT) makes a difference between temple prostitution (which is considered bad (for obvious reasons) and not allowed) and prostitution for money, which not only was allowed, but even accepted - how, for example, would a widowed man have sex, otherwise?
You continue to show your ignorance of what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that ALL sex outside the marriage covenant is sin. I challenge you to produce a quote of the Bible that says prostitution for money is ok as you claim it says. What it actually says is that prostitutes who don't repent will burn in hell.
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Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Prostitution was a death penalty sin in Israel under the Old Covenant.
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Lev 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a snow; lest the land fall to snowdom, and the land become full of wickedness.
Deu 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the snow in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 02:28 PM |
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Interesting, the most parents would first blame their selves for their kids choice. Like inadequate education, fail of values instill, which tends more for a moral approach of the problem.
The next post I don't see any point made.
How would you know what most parents would do?
And what is actually your point?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 02:40 PM |
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In the same logic, you can't know or understand that others may see prostitution under a moral angle neither. On another side, it does not surprise me that you wouldn't even think you made any error if your kids are taking the prostitution way, as I never saw you admit mea culpa, even when it was clearly demonstrated by others. To each one its own.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 02:49 PM |
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You continue to show your ignorance of what the Bible teaches.
It's you who demonstrates for the umptieth time an unwilligness or inability to actually read the Bible correctly.
What about this here:
Deut 23,17: “There shall be no ritual harlot of the daughters of Israel, or a one of the sons of Israel."
What do you think RITUAL harlot means, and what do you think, why it's not simply harlot?
What about the story of Judah and Tamar told in Gen 38, 12-30? Doesn't that sound like harlots were pretty common there?
What about the fact, that said Tamar and her thusly sired son Perez are mentioned in Matthew 1,3 in Christ's blood line?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 03:09 PM |
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In the same logic, you can't know or understand that others may see prostitution under a moral angle neither. On another side, it does not surprise me that you wouldn't even think you made any error if your kids are taking the prostitution way, as I never saw you admit mea culpa, even when it was clearly demonstrated by others. To each one its own.
Salamandre, aren't you realizing that you are not making ANY kind of point, EXCEPT saying that prostitution is immoral? And if people ask you, WHY, you say, because people don't want their children to become one. And if you are being told, that's because people THINK it is immoral and for certain reasons it's a badly placed profession, but WHAT EXACTLY WAS IMMORAL ABOUT it, you wither have no answer or start the circle again.
You STILL have no point - you are just regurgitating moral BIAS. And not enough with that, you had to bring up guilt as well - what would a nice moral bias be worth without a hefty dose of guilt?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 10, 2011 04:14 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:16, 10 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
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You continue to show your ignorance of what the Bible teaches.
It's you who demonstrates for the umptieth time an unwilligness or inability to actually read the Bible correctly.
What about this here:
Deut 23,17: “There shall be no ritual harlot of the daughters of Israel, or a one of the sons of Israel."
What do you think RITUAL harlot means, and what do you think, why it's not simply harlot?
What about the story of Judah and Tamar told in Gen 38, 12-30? Doesn't that sound like harlots were pretty common there?
What about the fact, that said Tamar and her thusly sired son Perez are mentioned in Matthew 1,3 in Christ's blood line?
Certainly the Bible forbids ritual harlotry, as well as ALL harlotry and flat out states all harlots who don't repent will burn in hell. The Old Testament constantly warned about paganizing worship of God thus the warning that temple prostitutes would not be acceptable.
Your claim that the Old Testament approves of harlotry is flat out false and no one who has any clue about the Old Testament will ever agree with you. Call up a rabbi at a local synagogue and ask if prostitution is ok according the Old Testament.
Your reference to Tamar is detrimental to your case. No where does it say God says her behavior is ok. The Bible presents the good, the bad, and the ugly. It does not sugar coat what anyone did. That instance also acocured well before the Law of Moses, before there even was an Israel. But the text reflects that prostitutes were to be put to death. That is not an attitude of acceptance.
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Gen 38:24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by snowdom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
"Porn stars" are prostitutes and such behavior is condemned as sin by the Bible. Adultery (sex between two people when one is married to someone else) and fornication (sex between two people who are not married) are called sin in the Bible. That is pretty common knowledge, and I have already quoted verses that show that to be true.
If you wish to continue to discuss what the Bible says or to make futhur allegations of what the Bible says about prostitution that is probably best done in the religion thread.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 04:20 PM |
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I was coming slowly but surely. If one is ready to admit that his kids did not receive a healthy support or education, therefore they turned to prostitution, then the whole point turns towards moral issues-I failed, I was wrong, I missed, I did not take care of-. If a parent is blaming himself for this, it means he considers the prostitution a bad thing. Concerning the moral issue, if you think prostitution is morally a good thing, I have no arguments. For me is the lowest step before self destruction.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 10, 2011 04:24 PM |
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Porn stars are prostitutes? 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 04:26 PM |
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Of course they are, what else? They sell sexual services for money, it is the exact definition of prostitution.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 10, 2011 04:31 PM |
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Are sperm donors prostitutes? What about strippers? What about actors who have nude sex scenes? What about sex therapists?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 10, 2011 04:33 PM |
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While a porn star can have good qualities I could not describe a porn star as a person of good character.
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All forms of making a living are not equally honorable...
Ah, character judgement and honorable professions. Yes, still in the Middke Ages.
No, I am not in the Middle Ages, I am in the true Age of Enlightenment.  Perhaps I should say what age you are in?
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What about the "honorable" job of money-lending - done by Jews only, in certain times, because it wasn't thought honorable?
That would mean, the whole money buisiness is not honorable - and people working in those jobs are not persons of good character.
Lol!!!!! You think only Jews were money lenders until recently?
Clicky
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Banking activities were sufficiently important in Babylonia in the second millennium b.c. that written standards of practice were considered necessary. These standards were part of the Code of Hammurabi � the earliest known formal laws. Obviously, these primitive banking transactions were very different in many ways to their modern-day counterparts. Deposits were not of money but of cattle, grain or other crops and eventually precious metals. Nevertheless, some of the basic concepts underlying today�s banking system were present in these ancient arrangements, however. A wide range of deposits was accepted, loans were made, and borrowers paid interest to lenders.[1]
Similar banking type arrangements could also be found in ancient Egypt. These arrangements stemmed from the requirement that grain harvests be stored in centralized state warehouses. Depositors could use written orders for the withdrawal of a certain quantity of grain as a means of payment. This system worked so well that it continued to exist even after private banks dealing in coinage and precious metals were established[2].
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Our capitalist world is based on lending money - on DIShonorable professions - strangely enough, since you embrace capitalism, you would have to embrace them as well.
I certainly do not view lending money as dishonorable and the Bible does not teach that it is. Forced marxism is what is dishonorable--stealing from one person to "give" to another.
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Weapon manufacturers and traders? Honorable profession? What about those lab rats working on new B and C weapons? Honorable professions?
Yep, weapon manufacturing is honorable. Weapons can be used for just purposes like self defense.
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Strangely enough it's the Christian religion that claims the importance of mind and soul over body, so you'd think that prostitution of the BODY would be a lesser evil than prostitution of mind and soul.
The Bible emphasizes both the heart and actions and specifically calls prostitution a sin.
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So shouldn't a job that would require from you to forget all Christian tenets of charity, mercy and compassion, prostituting mind and soul for the greater glory of capitalist cutthroat economics be WAY more dishonorable than one that involves prostituting just your body?
Capitalism does not make one forget charity, mercy, or compassion. I give more than 50% of my income to charity. No Marxist that I am aware of does the same. The Bible does not condemn being rich (in fact it says that God made some people rich (Abraham, for instance)). What the Bible condemns is making riches your God.
Capitalism is also not "cutthroat economics." In capitalism everyone is expected to work instead of being a Marxist leech. You work for some agreed upon sum and receive wages for your efforts. Or you take the risk of starting a business and hire others to work for you and pay them for their efforts. That is not "Cutthroat" unless you are a lazy person who wants to live off of other people.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 04:35 PM |
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Is donating sperm a sexual service? Sexual service means contact between partners (ok, Clinton has a different vision of this, but still). Strippers do not have sexual relations with customers, if they have they are prostitutes, no more strippers. I never heard about a sex therapist getting personally involved in sex between his patients.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 04:39 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:43, 10 Dec 2011.
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Why would you be annoyed if your kids are making weapons? Weapons are very useful. It's not like they pull the trigger. A country without weapons and army is a potential slave one.
yeah, and the guy pulling the trigger will say that he wasn't the one who gave the order so that in the end they are deaths, but no one is responsible.
and we claim that we want peace in the world, yet we see no problem with supporting the war, even if it just means cold war. does it make any sense to you, that the only way we found to keep peace in the world, is to prepare for war??
oh and a country with weapons and army is already a slave... of his own desire of security.
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I certainly do not view lending money as dishonorable and the Bible does not teach that it is. Forced marxism is what is dishonorable--stealing from one person to "give" to another.
but charging interest rates used to be forbidden (and people living in europe in particular, must understand why now). I doubt JJ was talking about lending money to a friend.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 10, 2011 04:42 PM |
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Is donating sperm a sexual service? Sexual service means contact between partners (ok, Clinton has a different vision of this, but still). Strippers do not have sexual relations with customers, if they have they are prostitutes, no more strippers. I never heard about a sex therapist getting personally involved in sex between his patients.
I'm not contesting, just wondering.
A stripper doing a lap dance is certainly having "sexual relations", don't you think? In any case, it's taking money to expose your body in a sexual way. Isn't the difference between that and some sort of actual penetration simply academic?
In any case, I'm not sure I consider porn stars to be prostitutes. There are some similarities in their job descriptions, but I can't help but feel it's quite the same thing. I mean, would you consider the director of a porn film to be a prostitute? If not, what is he, then, a pimp? I don't think the analogy is exact.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 04:45 PM |
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Yes Fauch, France already saw what it does when you have no army, weapons and not ready for war, I can't agree more...
If weapons wouldn't exist, man will still fight with fists and legs, as it did since always. It is not the weapons the problem, but us.
@Corribus: I personally don't see much of a difference between:
1) John gives 100$ to Jenna for a sexual service.
2) Producer John gives 100$ to Jenna for a sexual service on Tim, while a camera is filming. About additional dialogs, we know that many people have different phantasms, and some customers are even asking to prostitutes to play a role, for more arousal.
Of course, because there is a camera they will prefer calling themselves actors. But if John the simple customer is filming Jenna the street prostitute, would we say she is an actress from that point?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 05:23 PM |
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Film isn't quite the reality.
it's like married actors kissing in a movie. They do it. Their partners mostly don't mind, since they are acting. They however do mind if they start kissing someone on, say, a party. Is this hipocrisy?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 07:23 PM |
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indeed, weapons just make it easier to kill ourselves. yes, the problem is ourselves, and our hypocrisy. when everyone will be dead, there will be peace.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 08:42 PM |
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Your claim that the Old Testament approves of harlotry is flat out false and no one who has any clue about the Old Testament will ever agree with you. Call up a rabbi at a local synagogue and ask if prostitution is ok according the Old Testament.
Your reference to Tamar is detrimental to your case. No where does it say God says her behavior is ok.
Sadly, you have no idea what you are talking about. Look at Genesis 38. This is the story:
14And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
15When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
Read that?
I mean, it'a clear that for some reason HE thought HER to be a harlot, so either it was her clothing or the place she sat which TOLD him she was one. And HE is proposing to her - pretty coolly, considering you claim she would be a candiate for death penalty.
He does that, because he is ALLOWED TO; after all - whom should he go to in his situation? Conntinuing:
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17And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
19And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
20And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.
21Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.
22And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
23And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
24And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by snowdom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
Now note that he wants to burn HER, not simply every harlot. He wants to burn her, because she is his daughter-inlaw, was promised to his son AND AS SUCH snowd and got pregnat by whoring! Nowever, it goes on:
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25When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
26And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
See, he does NOT burn them, he even says she has been more righteous than him - but not because he visited a snow. That's completely ok. It's because he didn't fulfill his promise,
So, no, sorry, no point.
@ Salamandre
Quote:
I have no arguments.
I heartily agree.
Now, just start to think for a moment.
Prostitutes exist - make money - for the pleasure of whom?
And who is breaking the staff of immorality over them?
Isn't it strange, that in a MALE dominated world those who satisfy MALE pleasure are marked as immoral?
Could it be possible that MEN just PROJECT their own ire about their inability to resist their urges and desires onto the women, starting with Eve, no end in sight?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted December 10, 2011 08:55 PM |
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Lol!!!!! You think only Jews were money lenders until recently?
500-1300 AD a good christian didn't lend money for profit. If you wanted to lend money, you went to a jew or similar immoral or stigmatised person. Catholic belief and all that.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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