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| Thread: Recommend books! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted May 21, 2012 06:31 PM |
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"The Hunger Games" by Suzanne Collins seems to be a Must-Read. It's a trilogy, and I can't remember the last time I've been reading through 1400 pages as avidly.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 21, 2012 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:54, 21 May 2012.
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Maybe it's just a pinch of book snobbery in me, but I just can't get myself to read or enjoy books that are written for adolescents. I found Harry Potter dreadfully juvenile, but I'm willing to admit that my (perhaps irrational) bias against it from the beginning made my dislike of it a self-fullfilling prophecy. I suspect that same will be the case here.
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The_Polyglot
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posted May 21, 2012 07:17 PM |
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Don't bother with the Hunger Games Corribus; It is basically Twilight 2.0, with even worse writing(If such a thing is possible... ) bland protagonists and a boring ghost of a plot which has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted May 21, 2012 07:19 PM |
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I like cheese. I sort of want to read it now.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted May 21, 2012 07:27 PM |
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You do remind me of Sheo, blizzy. 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
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posted May 21, 2012 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
Don't bother with the Hunger Games Corribus; It is basically Twilight 2.0, with even worse writing(If such a thing is possible...) bland protagonists and a boring ghost of a plot which has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
If you mean The vampire books by Steph Meyer - you must be kidding. Nor can you have possibly read it then. Hunger Games is rated "Young Adults" - but then The Long Walk by King/Bachmann is YA as well. I mean, just because a lot of the protagonists are "Young Adults"...
It's written in 1st person present tense, and I really, really like this perspective - if it's well done, that is, and it definitely IS well done. Although that perspective IS one of a Young Adult, that much is true.
I read that the trilogy has been prinzed 25 million times now. Highly successful. Sure, that doesn't mean much, neither in a positive nor a negative way, and it's not 1984 or something.
No, it's just highly entertaining. I mean, Spider Man and everything Marvel, Batman, Star Wars and so on - it's Young Adults, right? King/Straub, the Talisman - Young Adults. Firestarter, Carrie - Young Adults...
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Vindicator
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Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted May 21, 2012 10:58 PM |
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The only good Hunger Games book was the first one, and even that was just OK. The other two were (imo) pretty dumb.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 21, 2012 11:16 PM |
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@JJ
I don't know about the Long Walk, but the Talisman and the others you mentioned might have been about Young Adults, but they certainly weren't marketed to that demographic.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 22, 2012 08:12 AM |
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That's debatable. Spider Man is DEFINITELY YA (all the earmarks are there).
Anyway. Today, most everything is marketed to that demographic, so it doesn't really say anything. And the "YA" label certainly stops to have that much meaning, when the story is taling place in a world where the 12-year-olds by force have to take responsibility for their families.
It certainly is no "youth adventure" thing - for that it's too cruel, violent and brutal.
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The_Polyglot
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posted May 22, 2012 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
If you mean The vampire books by Steph Meyer - you must be kidding. Nor can you have possibly read it then. Hunger Games is rated "Young Adults" - but then The Long Walk by King/Bachmann is YA as well. I mean, just because a lot of the protagonists are "Young Adults"...
It's written in 1st person present tense, and I really, really like this perspective - if it's well done, that is, and it definitely IS well done. Although that perspective IS one of a Young Adult, that much is true.
I read that the trilogy has been prinzed 25 million times now. Highly successful. Sure, that doesn't mean much, neither in a positive nor a negative way, and it's not 1984 or something.
No, it's just highly entertaining.
Yes, I do mean the vamp books by Meyer, and the reason why is that the major characters are just as blandly written, often having only a couple of defining character traits, just like in Twilight, and consequently most of them have a direct Twilight counterpart. This has nothing to do with the rating, but everything to do with the writing.
As I said, characterization is minimal, conflicts between the characters are blew out of proportion, they are not detailed enough, and often have too simple(Or, as a matter of fact, plain Deus ex machina) resolutions, the characters' motivation varies almost from page to page, with no adequate explanation, they so often act 'out of character' that one wonders if they have one at all, MacGuffins abound, the author's attempts to preach about moral issues are awkward and blatantly obvious, as if they were shoehorned in by the editor, the consequences of various events aren't portrayed properly, the concept is stolen from a decade-old classic, but is never done any justice, the world is constantly contradicting itself, and do not get me started on the sorry excuse of a "plot".
This is why I cautioned Corribus, not the rating. I agree that it can be entertaining despite these flaws, but not on its own merit, only as a caricature of what it so obviously sought to be, just like Twilight.
There sure are serious books written from a youth's perspective,(Imre Kertész:Fatelessness, to name just one) but this is not one of them.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 22, 2012 03:28 PM |
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I pretty much completely disagree with that "review" of yours, as if we would have read different books.
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The_Polyglot
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posted May 22, 2012 03:41 PM |
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Please feel free to disagree - it is just an opinion. Could You please elaborate yours a little? Who knows, maybe You'll win me over.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 22, 2012 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
That's debatable. Spider Man is DEFINITELY YA (all the earmarks are there).
Well I wouldn't read a book about Spider Man either.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 22, 2012 04:17 PM |
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I don't see any moral preaching, on the contrary. There is something like the constant pressure of "everything you do has unpleasant consequences", and combined with "everyone wants to use me for their own ends", it makes for quite a difficult situation for a 16-year-old, at least at the personal front. The general front isn't comparable with ours, though - we have a lot of humans, so something like "we have to stop killing each other, otherwise we'll completely lose the ability to function as a society and die as a race" is not working with a world population of 7 billion people.
Conflicts between characters LOOK sometimes somewhat out of proportion, but the age combined with the general situation makes it rather realistic - kids that age, even if thesy live in a "normal" environment, DO blow conflicts out of proportion all the time.
Also, in my opinion there's a lot of characterization - however, with the narrative perspective you have to "work" for the characterization, since everything comes somewhat filtered through specific glasses, and the characterization of the narrating person has to be done completely alone.
The plot - well. I don't know which "decade old classic" you mean, when you say the plot is stolen - it can't be Twilight. I see a couple of similarities with King/Bachmann's The Long Walk - and as with that book we are not talking about any "how was it possible".
Now, obviously, this stuff hasn't been aiming for a Pulitzer or a Nobel - it's pure entertainment. With that in mind, the writing is delivering what it is supposed to do - it transports the story, and it does so in a very immediate way. 1st person present tense is difficult anyway, and that in combination with the obviously limited education of the narrator makes for a deceptively simple narration, but of course it's everything else than that, which means that the writing is actually, in my opinion rather good.
For the MacGuffins, I think you probably mean not actual MacGuffins, but more the fact that a lot of "environmental" things - the bigger picture, if you want to - is rather ... let's say vague. However, that's in keeping with narration and perspective.
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The_Polyglot
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posted May 22, 2012 06:48 PM |
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Quote:
I don't see any moral preaching, on the contrary. There is something like the constant pressure of "everything you do has unpleasant consequences"
Unpleasant consequences that somehow only rarely affect the protagonists directly.
-There is an allegedly widespread famine... but Katniss and co can poach all they want, with minor consequences
-There is a great deal of tension already present in the Empire (or whatever), but all that it takes to launch a widespread revolt is an insolent child throwing a tantrum on TV. The same Capital that crushed all the districts(SPOILER Except the nuclear one SPOILER) utterly, and has basically thrown the other Districts into abject slavery... 75 years ago. Since then, only 1 district has even access to a rudimentary weapons supply, and yet, Palpatine 2.0 snowed his pants at the thought of 'civil war' (Fought with what exactly? Bad breath? Even if they got help from You-know-where,SPOILER They have been neutral for a loong time, battling depopulation, so they surely would have lost in any sane universe against a top-notch Empire army, whose sole purpose had been to keep the Capital on top via brute force)
-There is great suffering among the people... but of course, anyone close to Katniss survives unscathed(Okay, there's a couple of exceptions, but only for dramatic effect. 'Oh my god, a third of the total human population killed each other over two psychotic tyrant's idiotic power struggle! You can tell that truly, war is so very terrible, because Spoiler and Spoiler are also dead! It's a tragic loss that surely equals the severity of the rest of the deaths!' and so forth
-In the Hunger Games trilogy, there is approximately 4 mentions of vaguely widespread hunger... but Katniss and co gorge themselves every other chapter
-Generally, others pay for Katniss' mistakes, she doesn't need to learn from them, and of course, she never gets in any real trouble, because
a, She's the protagonist, so enemies spare her/are too incompetent to harm her.(seriously, the all-powerful ruler should be able to make one teen shut up/away for eternity, if he really wants to... Oh, shut up, stupid common sense!)
b, Everyone protects Katniss, even when there's little reason to
c, I'M THE SPOILER, SNOWING SNOWS! RULES DON'T APPLY TO ME! I can kill whoever I want whenever I want because I'm just a victim of the circumstances!(and a trained murderer, but that doesn't count!)
and combined with "everyone wants to use me for their own ends", it makes for quite a difficult situation for a 16-year-old, at least at the personal front...
Which tries to justify Katniss' behaviour. Why does everyone else behave like a snowing 4-year-old too(Snow and You-know-who are the worst such offenders)?
Conflicts between characters LOOK sometimes somewhat out of proportion, but the age combined with the general situation makes it rather realistic - kids that age, even if thesy live in a "normal" environment, DO blow conflicts out of proportion all the time.
Again, calculating dictators/power-hungry adults should not do the same.
Also, in my opinion there's a lot of characterization - however, with the narrative perspective you have to "work" for the characterization, since everything comes somewhat filtered through specific glasses, and the characterization of the narrating person has to be done completely alone.
Yeah, right... Did You know, that approximately 70% of Katniss' victims didn't even have a name?
I am interested if You can add anything significant to the following character descriptions:
Peeta is the hopelessly in love, gallant to a fault knight(Edward)
Gale is the brooding, wild 'bad boy' with a heart of gold(Jacob)
Katniss is the mopey-dopey loner who has to choose between two differently perfect girl-fantasies(Bella)
Snow is the evil, cruel, scheming, heartless snow, aka the Big Bad(the Volturi)
Prim is the old-beyond her years optimistic little snow, whose main role is the supply of 'Aww'-moments.
Replaced with the even cuter little snow for a time, in the arena, who is there so the author can unequivocally show that the other tributes are snows, while retaining the supply of 'Aww'-moments. Occasional comic relief. SPOILER.(Reneesmee, with a twist)
The other tributes: There to be slaughtered, though not all by Katniss, so that the audience continues to like her.(The newborn vamps) Most of them lack names, so it's even easier to hate them for murdering SPOILER
Haymitch: The heartbroken snow, forced to take part in horrifying events against his will. Brief mentor to Katniss and Peeta. Comic relief.(This is harder than the others: Early Carlisle with a minor twist)
Finnick: Ladies-man rascal, occasional badass-wannabe, comic relief(Jacob nr 2.)
I rest my case.
The plot - well. I don't know which "decade old classic" you mean
Not the entire plot, just the setup:Evil dysfunctional government helmed by a heartless dictator making children kill each other in an isolated arena as part of a yearly event to terrorize the masses, keeping them in line-Battle Royale by Takami Koushun
Typical that while the stolen elements work,(albeit as well as a Chinese Rubik's Cube knockoff) the 'original' material is weaker than a famished limpet.
Now, obviously, this stuff hasn't been aiming for a Pulitzer or a Nobel - it's pure entertainment. With that in mind, the writing is delivering what it is supposed to do...
Yeah, verbal masturbation for adolescent girls. (This video sums it up perfectly.)
For the MacGuffins, I think you probably mean not actual MacGuffins...
I mean the innumerable instances of Deus ex machina('Advancing the plot whenever it's terminally stuck, just because I'm the author! YAY!')
-The packages Katniss receives in the arena
-Katniss' enemy sparing her instead of killing her ('Oohh, You avenged Spoiler, go, and live happily ever after so I can die a horrific death far from home, instead of going home to a life of prosperity and fame!')
-SPOILER
-SPOILER
and so forth
If not for her massive luck, she would have been dead 5 minutes into the book. Go read Battle Royale to see how a gritty, child-killing, society-condemning book should be really done. I'll wait 
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JollyJoker
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posted May 22, 2012 08:59 PM |
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Could you please try to structure this a bit, esöpecially with the quotes, if I am to answer?
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JollyJoker
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posted May 23, 2012 10:10 AM |
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@ Polyglot
I'm going to assume that your opinion about the details of the book - characters, plot, writing and so on - is a consequence of your opinion, Hunger Games would be a rip-off of Battle Royale, which is probably the reason why you come up with a lot of stuff that isn't correct, overstated or interpreted wrongly.
However, that assumption isn't true. Cwertainly, if you just reduce a plot or general situation just far enough, true originality died after Shakespeare at the latest. A murder story, for example, is a murder story.
The BR and HG are vastly different though.
HG is basically THE ROMAN REPUBLIC and its conquered provinces revisited, and, most importantly, supported by TELEVISION, which makes the Games basically a yearly past-apocalyptic Olympic Game Event. Note that SOME of the provinces field "pros", even though this is vaguely forbidden, like in the amateur times of the real Olympics. It is also important to note that HG stresses the role of TV, appearances in general and so on. The Games are a major event, that fulfills more than one function. It is also supported by a quasi-fair-and-legal system of picking the "tributes", which in turn is based on the material situation of the people. You MIGHT interpret this as a pointer to the current army of the United States and who is actually doing the fighting...
In contrast to that BR is staged in what I would call "The Nazis and the Japanese won WW II and the Japs are now combining German Concentration Camp experimental ethics with totalitarian power conserving tactics. Here, it's an ongoing experiment, where an unspecified totalitarian regime (pointing to 1984) is simply feeding the terror machine and forcing school boys and girls to kill each other.
Most of the points you make are invalid.
You say, for example, that power-hungry dictators should'nt behave like 4-year old snows - but that's EXACTLY how they DO behave in reality, if you look at the real existing ones.
To make this short, I think BR made an impression on you, and now your mission is to point your finger to what in your view is just a bad rip-off, a shameless copy or whatever.
In my view that's just fan hysteria, though.
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The_Polyglot
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posted May 23, 2012 03:00 PM |
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You know, the sad thing is, that the Hunger Games aren't a rip-off of Battle Royale. It's just that it tries to make points about society that have already been made, in a manner inferior to its numerous 'predecessors'. This alone wouldn't be a problem, if at least the story would be well-written, - not every book has to have a deeper meaning - but it is not. The books are extremely clichéd, taking themselves too seriously, and thus, fail to entertain or encourage the reader to ponder the issues presented.(rather clumsily, as I already said).In short, they reminded me strongly of a mediocre example of pulp fiction.
As there are a ton of books which do all the things the Hunger Games aspires to do significantly better, I wouldn't recommend reading this particular series.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 23, 2012 03:32 PM |
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My general opinion is that if something is swooned over by a gazillion people, it's got to be crap.
Call it Corribus's First Law of Commercial Suckitude: the more popular something is, the more it probably sucks.
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zamfir
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Allez allez allez
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posted May 23, 2012 04:42 PM |
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Can't agree with that one. Perhaps it's more about feeling less personal about something that is liked by a big number of people. Or the fact that you grow unreasonable expectations for something which is just a little better than most books/song etc.
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