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Heroes Community > Other Games Exist Too > Thread: Starcraft 2
Thread: Starcraft 2 This Popular Thread is 228 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 50 100 150 200 ... 224 225 226 227 228 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 24, 2010 04:41 PM

Quote:
does it really solve the problem of zerging your opponent with mass units?


?
All strategies have counters in Starcraft 2.
It is your own choice however if you want to make pressure on the enemy early, mid or late in the game however.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted July 24, 2010 08:49 PM

Doomforge is upset and disappointed. Never saw that coming.

I'm not sure what you want to be different about an RTS. You throw in new toys and abilities and then let the fast-paced strategy unravel. The genius is in the dough.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 24, 2010 09:09 PM

Quote:
If they made a completly different game it would not be STARCRAFT 2.


Warcraft 3 added heroes, new races, completely changed the mechanics. Does it mean it shouldn't be called a warcraft2 sequel?

Diablo 2 gave us skill trees, which revolutionized the game. What, is that not a sequel too?

SC2 gave us new graphics and units. Seems almost like a mod.


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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 24, 2010 09:36 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 21:37, 24 Jul 2010.

I was considering getting StarCraft 2, but I'm hearing nothing but bad things about it on several forums. Can someone offer me their opinion on this: is it a poor game, or a poor sequel (or both)?
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winterfate
winterfate


Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
posted July 24, 2010 10:41 PM

@Cepheus: Probably a poor sequel.

It's not a bad game, it's just that all of the hype that Blizzard has given it has fallen kind of flat since now it feels like the game is overrated.

I'll give you my official opinion sometime between release day and August 27 (by the 12th or so I'll be out of college, so I'll have time to play then).

@Xerox: I understand that, but even you have to admit that it's kind of silly to mass one unit (seen it mostly with Marauders in SC2) and wipe out your opponent, considering the counter system was implemented precisely to stop that (or at least minimize it).

@Joonas: Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't PvP either. It's just that even battles against the AI in SC1 devolve into who can mass more Siege Tanks/Hydralisks/(insert Protoss unit here) in the shortest amount of time.

(Unless it's an islands map, and god do I hate those. -_-)

From what I've seen, SC2 seems to be going the same route, hence my concern. But yeah, I only MP with my dad, and it's a comp stomp (him and me vs computer players).
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 24, 2010 11:16 PM

Thanks, Winterfate
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted July 25, 2010 12:07 AM

I stand corrected: sequels that revolutionise the formula kick ass if they work.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 25, 2010 02:02 AM

I do not think you can have an opinion about the game without testing it yourself and this applies to all games.
Warcraft 3 was huge because it added two new races but Starcraft has always been around these three races. Like the only other alien race than the protoss and zerg are the xel'naga and the hybrids.
Warcraft 2, which had two factions, introduced new races such as the High elves, the Trolls and the Dwarves for the first time and so it was not strange that there would be more factions and a fleshed out universe in Warcraft 3.

Maybe if Starcraft 2 introduces more alien races, we might get atleast a fourth race (*cough* hybrids *cough*) in Starcraft III.
And the game is certainly not the same as Starcraft 1. There are complelty different mechanics and stratgies for all of the races.
Did the Warp mechanism exist for the Protoss in Starcraft 1? No.
And now the whole Protoss race is almost built around it.¨¨

When WC2 was released, it was not nearly as large as Sc2 is now and so it was easier to dramatically change the game.
If the game was as changed as Warcraft 3 was from Warcraft 2, more people would probably have complained about the game "losing the spirit of Starcraft" or something like that.
I think most people do not want Starcraft to have six races, several heroes and completly remade factions.
There are still new units which have huge roles such as the Ravens for Terran, Void Rays for Protoss and Infestors for Zerg.

When I played, and I am not lying now, I never saw somebody just massing Marauders. Most Terran players I met went for Marines, Marauders, Medics and Siege Tanks though I admit that I felt that Protoss were far more diverse than Terran who seemed to go with pretty much the same strategy everytime I met them. When I played Terran, I often used more rare tactics such a cloaked Banshees or harassing their workers with Raven Auto-turrets.
And course, the AI is completly different from meeting players.

Of course, there are strategies where you just mass up units but those are just no fun. Getting Zergling rushed is still so damn annoying because it is not even a fun strategy to try to end the game in 5 minutes. But I did not often encounter players using only one unit, massed up though there were some units that I almost never saw. I almost never saw Carriers for Protoss, Ravens (I think the skilled players use these, they are really good...) for Terran and I do not think I have seen a single Ultralisk from a Zerg player.

I will do a real review of the game sometime after it has actually been released so that includes the campaign though all of the cinematics already leaked on YouTube... The CGI in some of them is amazing. I expect the game to get like 4/5 because it is in no way perfect but then, the game has not even been patched once yet.

Yes, a game that is very different from its "prequel" (I guess) can be enormously better but making such a game is also an enormous risk.


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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted July 25, 2010 04:05 AM
Edited by DagothGares at 04:11, 25 Jul 2010.

Quote:
Yes, a game that is very different from its "prequel" (I guess) can be enormously better but making such a game is also an enormous risk.
Also a risk that should be taken at all times, lest you stagnate. Though, usually, you should just drop the whole idea of sequelling and you know, make something original

I know this concept is hard to grasp for you, xerox, especially since you're a fanboy of a company that does nothing but franchises, but really, artistically (well, let's say we hold gaming up as an art form and compare it to books in a way) (comparison much easier made than you might suspect, since both industries suffer from stagnation (I don't know how many times people rereleased twilight with different names and slightly different accents of plot points) (Just to drive the point further home: entire publishers have decided to give up on that whole "diversity and originality" thing and specialised in tween vampire romance) and horrible treatment from the consumer) it is going nowhere, if you just repeat the formula with a few tweaks and graphics updates. If it's only about graphics, then you don't care about a game, you're just a magpy, going "Ooh, shiny!" and magpies kept the industry alive for a long time, but this will change (I hope, if gaming is ever to become a decent medium).

hence the gimmicks at E3

Oh, and xerox, I can judge all I want.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted July 25, 2010 04:28 AM

AFAIK, Starcraft is acknowledged as the most balanced game of all time. It's hard to want to revolutionize after pulling that off.
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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted July 25, 2010 07:45 AM

I played it in beta and only have positive words about it.

At least the multiplayer part it is. There is not a single rts that can compete with Starcraft on that field. The speed and amount of support and initial balance are something every other developer should strive for.

Add to that an epic (as in epic proportions) story in the making (still waiting to judge this tho) and I'm confident we will have a great game.

And no, I do not miss any new races, It seems to be perfect the way it is.

There is a lot of anti blizzard hype lately, but even tho "they do only franchises", they are the ones that made every single one of them a great success.

Starcraft 2 will be great game for anyone if you are into multiplayer, and probably decent game if you plan on only doing single player.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 25, 2010 01:28 PM

I like Blizzard myself. They make solid, fun games that last for years. I enjoy Diablo 1 (yes), Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 up to this day.

SC2 is however their first attempt at a sequel that doesn't seem to bring any sort of change. A refreshed version of SC1, that's what it is.

We'll see if there are any balance changes aimed at same-unit-abuse in the official version, too.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 25, 2010 02:16 PM

Some changes in Starcraft 2:

1. The map design is very different with more strategical features.

2. Terran lost the Firebat, the Goliath, the Vulture, the Science Vessel, the Medic, the Valkyrie, the Wraith and the Dropship. Terran gained Reapers, Marauders, Banshees, Vikings, Ravens, Medievacs, Hellions and Thors. So Terran gained and lost 8 units. Is this no change?

3. Zerg lost the Scourge, Queen, Defiler, Devourer, Guardian and Lurker. Zerg gained Baneling, Roach, Infestor, Overseer, Queen (lol), Corruptor and Brood Lord. Zerg lost 7 units and gained 7 units. Is this no change?

4. Protoss lost the Dragoons, Dark Archons, Arbiters, Corsairs, Scouts, Reavers and Shuttles. Protoss gained the Stalker, Sentry, Phoenix, Void Ray, Immortal, Warp Prism, Mothership, Colossus and Void Ray. Protoss lost 7 units and gained 9 units. Is this no change?

5. The Protoss got a huge new mechanic called the Warp-In technology.

6. The campaign is different from the multi-player game. Several scrapped units appears in the campaign such as the Goliath, the Lurker and the Dragoon.

7. Yes, there are changes if Sc2 removed 22 units and gained 24 units that are all different from the original game. And this is without the two Starcraft 2 expansions while I did include Brood War.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted July 25, 2010 02:18 PM

Changing units does not a new game make.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 25, 2010 02:23 PM

What do you mean by changing? The ones I mentioned are completly new units that have lasted or been added through the beta.

Mention what you want to change then. I think most players would not want Starcraft 2 to be the HoMM4 of the Starcraft series.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 25, 2010 02:37 PM

Quote:
Some changes in Starcraft 2:

1. The map design is very different with more strategical features.


That's map design. You can get similar one in starcraft 1 with the map editor.

Quote:
2. Terran lost the Firebat, the Goliath, the Vulture, the Science Vessel, the Medic, the Valkyrie, the Wraith and the Dropship. Terran gained Reapers, Marauders, Banshees, Vikings, Ravens, Medievacs, Hellions and Thors. So Terran gained and lost 8 units. Is this no change?


As Dagoth said, adding or removing units doesn't make a new game. Else, a simple mod for Starcraft 1 that changes units (there are plenty) would be considered a new game. Yet it's just a mod.

Quote:
3. Zerg lost the Scourge, Queen, Defiler, Devourer, Guardian and Lurker. Zerg gained Baneling, Roach, Infestor, Overseer, Queen (lol), Corruptor and Brood Lord. Zerg lost 7 units and gained 7 units. Is this no change?


Ditto

Quote:
4. Protoss lost the Dragoons, Dark Archons, Arbiters, Corsairs, Scouts, Reavers and Shuttles. Protoss gained the Stalker, Sentry, Phoenix, Void Ray, Immortal, Warp Prism, Mothership, Colossus and Void Ray. Protoss lost 7 units and gained 9 units. Is this no change?


Ditto

Quote:
5. The Protoss got a huge new mechanic called the Warp-In technology.


Which can be implemented by 1 line of code in Starcraft 1 by a modder

Quote:
6. The campaign is different from the multi-player game. Several scrapped units appears in the campaign such as the Goliath, the Lurker and the Dragoon.


This doesn't make SC2 any different than SC1 which also has some different units in campaign available.

Quote:
7. Yes, there are changes if Sc2 removed 22 units and gained 24 units that are all different from the original game. And this is without the two Starcraft 2 expansions while I did include Brood War.


Units don't make a new game
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 25, 2010 02:51 PM

I really, really do not get what you want changed then. I guess you want to remove the Terran, Zerg and Protoss since new units with completly new abilities that were not possible to make with Starcraft 1 and adds completly new strategies for all races does not make a sequel.

Quote:
That's map design. You can get similar one in starcraft 1 with the map editor.



And? The maps you play with on Battle.Net in SC2 are made by Blizzard and not by fans. Changing the whole concept of the map is a new thing. It is not the same as the flat maps of Starcraft 1 with some cliffs. And as far as I know, there are no destructble rocks, watch towers or line of sight fields in Starcraft 1.
Mods etc do not count as you can say that to any game sequel. Then you could just say that everything in Warcraft 3 is not new since it could just be modded by fans in Warcraft 2.

Quote:
As Dagoth said, adding or removing units doesn't make a new game. Else, a simple mod for Starcraft 1 that changes units (there are plenty) would be considered a new game. Yet it's just a mod.


Yes it does. It opens completly new strategies. If Starcraft 2 had the same units as Starcraft 1, I would agree. But it does not. The units are completly different and have completly different and usually more interesting abilities then in Starcraft 1.
Every single sequel would not be a new game I guess then, since everything can just be modded even though modded games do not count on Battle.Net where the majority of the players play.

Quote:
Which can be implemented by 1 line of code in Starcraft 1 by a modder



And? Modded games still do not appear on Battle.net.
I guess any new mechanic in any sequel game can not be considered new since it could just be modded.
And show me this mod for Starcraft 1 then.

Quote:
This doesn't make SC2 any different than SC1 which also has some different units in campaign available.


The campaign in Starcraft 2 is much more interactive than in Starcraft 1. There are much more units that do not appear in multi-player in Starcraft 2s campaign. You also have some choices in the campaign which you did not have in Starcraft 1, which was very linear.

Quote:
Units don't make a new game


Yes they do. If players use completly different NEW strategies for all races then it is not the same game.

It seems like there is no way of pleasing you.
Please mention exactly how Starcraft 2 could have been a new game then without losing tons of fans that would be disappointed by the changes.

And have you even played Starcraft 2?
I guess the answer is no.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 25, 2010 04:21 PM

*sigh* Xerox the fanboy vs the haters.
I think you guys should drop the ball, you are ending up on some weird form of absolutism.
The common atribute of a "mod" is that it involes changing the "gameplay" within the limitations of the "game engine", even in open source projects its still the truth.
And most of SC2's metagame could be implented in SC1, but it could also be implented in most RTS supporting scripting and changing the factions.
New game? Yes
They will propaly be flayed alive for not making big enough improvments by one part of the fanbase, and the other part will make blizzard alters and pray for more.

Just my small rant.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 25, 2010 05:25 PM

As far as I've checked there isn't anything breaking in StarCraft 2.
Biggest one seems to be the Queen for the Zerg. That really alters the gameplay.
Other would be yellow minerals and completely depletable gas source.
New campaign style is major.
Changing units isn't nothing special.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 25, 2010 06:40 PM

Quote:

And have you even played Starcraft 2?
I guess the answer is no.


I have a beta key, so why wouldn't I play it?
Besides, I wouldn't open my mouth without trying first.


As for the whole "it's a new game"... no, it's not. Much as red alert 2 is a copy of red alert 1. It's fun, yes, but shares same mechanics and stuff. Take away the graphics and the units and you will see that the core is the same.

A good example of a DIFFERENT game being a sequel, again, are Blizzard games. Yes! Warcraft 2/3 is the most obvious example. That game changed nearly everything in its mechanics and not because some units were now able to walk over a cliff or something.
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