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Father
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posted May 13, 2010 12:36 AM |
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Edited by Father at 00:38, 13 May 2010.
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I would say that is one way to look at it, but I can't. Matter of fact, I can't even agree with Corribus's statements (big suprise from me there I know).
Not everything can be hidden in pretty phrases and longer words. But those dang politicians keep trying! 
edit: To be clear, it is this that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and thus the whole of the argument it was founded on...
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Anything other than unregulated free markets is a nonequilibrium state
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baklava
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posted May 13, 2010 01:33 AM |
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*stares blankly at the civilized, rational, sensible discussion, started by Xerox, about socialism, in the middle of the OSM*
Well damn.
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Fauch
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posted May 13, 2010 02:28 AM |
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Also, what shabby state of the world?
Is it so bad?
I don't see serfs having one meal a week on the streets, do you?
what about half of the planet starving?
and isn't one bad point of the socialism that the economic power is centralized? which means those people are extremly powerful
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2010 06:52 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 06:53, 13 May 2010.
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People here seem confused enough to think that Socialism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive. You can gave Socialist or Egoist capitalism but they are still different forms of the same thing. In a socialist society you still have the freedom to climb the economic ladder to the top if you have a good enough idea and the right innovation. It's just that you help other people out while you are at it. Which is why large companies and mega corporations exist even in "Socialist" states.
Socialism is a dirty word to those that follow the Fox News gospel in the US. But for most independants, they know to actually research facts before they tout the evils of Socialism and how it will take away their medicare. 
The other American news channels I see also seem to avoid using the word as though it's a bad thing.
Meanwhile in Canada and in Britain, our news channels seem to not care.
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Father
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posted May 15, 2010 05:32 PM |
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Shyranis,
I agree with this 100%
I wish more people here did.
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted May 15, 2010 10:21 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 22:27, 15 May 2010.
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@Mvass wrote
Quote:
Socialism is public ownership of the means of production.
so it looks that all of the means of productions are on the stock market and where all people have equall shares.... that sound more like capitalism..... And it so democratic because everyone can have part in creating an nation...
so it can't be so bad unless someone has in history called something socialism to legitimate its ruling over the country but the political and social state of that country was far from minimum requirements so that we can call it with clean conscious that this country has socialism 
@Mvass wrote
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In what way is capitalism "not working"?
when you are not working you are.... unemployed
Everybody are employed in socialism..... in capitalism there are always people unemployed
humans are resources and some of them aren't working so it is a waste for the economy so the capitalism isn't efficient in using human resources . For example If your car is using 15 gallons of petrol per 100 miles and from this 15 only 3 gallons evaporates thats a loss... loss means that it isn't efficient so the engine isn't working as it should
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mvassilev
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posted May 16, 2010 12:05 AM |
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Under socialism, sure, everyone may be employed, but there's no way to tell if they're doing anything useful. Just look at the Soviet Union - everyone who wanted a job had one. Under socialism, the principle becomes, "You pretend to work, we pretend to pay you."
Much unemployment under capitalism is the result of government interventions such as the minimum wage and occupation licensing, and because of people's lack of willingness to change their expectations during the lower part of the business cycle.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shyranis
Promising
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posted May 16, 2010 12:25 AM |
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Under socialism, sure, everyone may be employed, but there's no way to tell if they're doing anything useful. Just look at the Soviet Union - everyone who wanted a job had one. Under socialism, the principle becomes, "You pretend to work, we pretend to pay you."
Socialism =/= Communism
Though like Capitalism you can have egoistic communism (China, which is now a mish mash capitalistic dictatorship) or socialistic (late term Soviet Union). I know you were trying to use it as an extreme example but no modern countries are that bad because they aren't allowed to slide like that. Though I would agree that there are many people who abuse their government programs and need to be frequently audited.
I know you lived there and it must have been troublesome. But look at the hell hole where I came from.
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posted May 16, 2010 12:41 AM |
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Communism is a form of socialism. Socialism is public ownership of all the means of production. Communism is public ownership of all property.
And China is not communist. It's ruled by a party that calls itself Communist, but that doesn't make it communist. It's not even socialist. If I had to classify it, I'd call it national-corporatist.
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Fauch
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posted May 16, 2010 12:57 AM |
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Quote:
Under socialism, sure, everyone may be employed, but there's no way to tell if they're doing anything useful.
lol, in capitalism too, many people aren't doing something very useful (and I'm not talking about unemployed people)
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Father
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posted May 16, 2010 01:12 AM |
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Unemployed? Or insignificant little miscreants of society that take advantage of this weak market by getting on welfare at any and all costs.
I don't need to tell you who gets on welfare the most. The numbers speak for themselves. It's absolutely disgusting how people take advantage of this system.
So Mvass your saying that people will take advantage of it (the government) the other way as well? I'm going to assume then that you believe Captalism is simply the "lesser of two evils". To be honest, besides my simple disagreement with your social/political/religious...ok, other than the fact that I disagree with just about everything you believe in...don't you see the negative view in your post?
I mean, lets pretent for a moment that the USA actually went through some radical change and the government was switching over. Do you think we would have more or less of a chance of success if people had that type of attitude you share from the get go?
My point is, of course your so against it. I mean, look how desperately poor you speak of the idea. At least those that take a look at Capitalism are good enough to point out the good sides to it as they see them.
So my question to you is this. Could you list some good qualities to socialism, communism? What would be great is a list of like 10 pro's and 10 con's on each side. It would be interesting to see what people come up with.
Eh, or it doesn't matter at all either way. Not trying to jump your junk or anything, lol...just making observations
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mvassilev
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posted May 16, 2010 01:37 AM |
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Fauch:
If these people really aren't doing anything useful, they wouldn't be hired. Businesses want profits, and they don't make them by hiring people who don't do something useful. (Now, if you're talking about public-sector employees, this may indeed be the case.)
Father:
So you want me to create a list of pros for socialism? Okay, I'll give it a try.
1. At first (but only at first), the poorest of the poor will be better off.
2. People who care about economic equality above all else will be satisfied with the result.
And that's it.
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Fauch
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posted May 16, 2010 03:22 AM |
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Quote:
Fauch:
If these people really aren't doing anything useful, they wouldn't be hired. Businesses want profits, and they don't make them by hiring people who don't do something useful. (Now, if you're talking about public-sector employees, this may indeed be the case.)
making profit isn't useful.
Quote:
Father:
So you want me to create a list of pros for socialism? Okay, I'll give it a try.
1. At first (but only at first), the poorest of the poor will be better off.
2. People who care about economic equality above all else will be satisfied with the result.
well, I guess you plan to become rich then 
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mvassilev
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posted May 16, 2010 04:12 AM |
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Making profit isn't useful? Huh? Under true capitalism, the only reason anyone makes profit is because it does something that is valued by someone. They wouldn't be making money if someone didn't value what they were doing. (Under the current situation, of course, it's possible that they're being paid by the government, and thus may indeed be doing nothing useful [but not necessarily], but that's the government, not the market.)
"I don't like it" =/= useless.
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Shyranis
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posted May 16, 2010 04:23 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 04:23, 16 May 2010.
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Quote:
Communism is a form of socialism. Socialism is public ownership of all the means of production. Communism is public ownership of all property.
So in other words, all of those supposedly socialist countries are actually somewhere between corporatist and free market with the US being on that same level right? I can't think of a single Western nation with all means of production nationalized. Most seem to have large private corporations as is typical of the majority of nations.
Quote:
And China is not communist. It's ruled by a party that calls itself Communist, but that doesn't make it communist. It's not even socialist. If I had to classify it, I'd call it national-corporatist.
Yes, they have not been communist for a long time now. As I said before, they have a really messed up economy created with mismatched parts. Approximately 20% (one in 5) of anything made there is counterfeit. But they definitely do not guarantee people a job.
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mvassilev
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posted May 16, 2010 05:26 AM |
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Quote:
So in other words, all of those supposedly socialist countries are actually somewhere between corporatist and free market with the US being on that same level right?
Correct, although seeing things as a triangle could help.
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Xerox
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posted May 16, 2010 10:40 AM |
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How can socialism be at the Soviet Union. -.-
I thought that used to be a horrible country to live in.
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Darkshadow
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posted May 16, 2010 10:47 AM |
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Quote:
How can socialism be at the Soviet Union. -.-
I thought that used to be a horrible country to live in.
Socialism=Horrible
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Xerox
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posted May 16, 2010 10:51 AM |
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Maybe 20 years ago.
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baklava
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posted May 16, 2010 12:10 PM |
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The true difference between socialism and communism is the same as between a chair and an electric chair.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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