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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Israel
Thread: Israel This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted June 02, 2010 02:22 PM

Don't lose your time to speak with Elodin. If he admits he is wrong his whole life lose sense, as is based on imaginary and fanaticism.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted June 02, 2010 03:27 PM
Edited by Elodin at 15:30, 02 Jun 2010.

@HoMaM

The idea that Israel engaged in an act of piracy is rather silly. And please, before you accuse them of breaking internatinoal law you may wish to study the actual law. Maybe this quote will enlighten you.

Clicky

Quote:

Among the various statements of outrage targeted at Israel, many point to Israel's confronting the "flotilla" ships in international waters as a sign of Israel's guilt.

I direct your attention to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea. Specifically, paragraph 67-68:

Quote:

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;<
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.



So these were ostensibly merchant vessels who were flying the flags of neutral states (since Turkey and Greece have not declared that they officially side with Hamas in their war for Israel's destruction). However, there was definitely reasonable grounds to believe that they were carrying contraband and breaching a blockade (since that was there very public, stated intention). After receiving prior warning
(see this YouTube video)
they intentionally refused to stop (I heard that they just radioed back curses in Arabic and English), and they quite clearly resisted visit, search or capture.

So this would have legitimized an attack by Israel on the vessels themselves, pursuant to paragraphs 38-46 of the treaty - note: Israel did not attack the vessels, they merely sought to prevent them from breaching the naval blockade of Gaza and redirect them to the Port of Ashdod where their supposed humanitarian supplies would then be rerouted to Gaza, along with the rest of the aid that goes in every day to not-so-starved Gaza.



Also, you may not recognize the blockade, but it is legal.

Clicky

Quote:

1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been  smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A  blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.  

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla.  Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.  

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area.  That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.  

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were  relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.



Oh, sorry, Gaza ia not a concentration camp. Also, peerhaps you are unaware of the 6 day war in which loony Arab nations surrounded Israel with the intent to destroy Isral but Israel kicked their collective butts? Gaza is one of the territories Israel captured from the nations seeking to destroy Israel. In my opinion Israel should have retaing full control of that and all other territories it captured.

You are mistaken if you think the US will ever turn its back on Israel. Although, for the remainder of Obama's term, it is possible that he will work against Israel. However, he will be a one term president. The Amerian people back Israel.

To recap: International law is on the side of Israel. Even if it were not, Israel has a rigth to defend itself and the blockade is part of that defense.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted June 02, 2010 03:47 PM

HoMaM: Get real.
Israel got full legal rights to do a waterblockage and border blockade, that its debateable how ethical it is, are a separate issue.
Now for facts:
Boat was asked to be stopped for controll, they responded with "snow you, we are going to sail to gaza"
Whoever was sitting hearing this repons sighed and alerted his/hers superiors who likely sigged before sending the message to get command soliders to get over there to fire a warning shot, and get a control of the damn boat. And find out why they are refusing control.
The next thing that happens is that 16 people get killed 50-something wounded, this does not happen out of this air.

The only mistake Israel did was to stop the boat too early, if they had waited a short while they would have been inside Israels territorial waters.
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kesnar
kesnar


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from Kesnaria
posted June 02, 2010 10:38 PM
Edited by kesnar at 22:39, 02 Jun 2010.

Well the fact is that it's not clear if the blockade is legal...

If we consider it legal then Israel MUST agree that Gaza is under occupation and thus MUST obey these laws:click me

But Israel don't want to comply with these rules and thus it does not consider Gaza under occupation...making its blockade illegal...


Anyway...for 3 pages I was absent in speech because, I saw something really strange...You guys are really fanatics...
Not only don't you understand that what you have done are war crimes, but you also turn this as a conspiracy against you, and you try to say that everything was done by the law...I am sure that in 4-5 posts you will say that the activists were killed by themselves and that every one in the world hates you because we are all Nazi-lovers...
(You know there were also other people that were massacred during the WW2, I never understood we only consider Jews the massacred ones...)

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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 02, 2010 10:45 PM

About the legality of the blockade: you don't have to occupy a land to blockade it, being at war with it is enough as well.

About the rest of your post: I assure you I am no fanatic, it's just that based on everything I've seen and heard I prefer to believe the Israeli side of the story. Yes, I think our actions were justified (even though they were poorly planned). And I also think it's pretty evident that the whole thing was a trap for us to fall into (which we did). If the reason of this flotilla was not to provoke Israel in some manner it could have been handled differently by its organizers.
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Carcity
Carcity


Supreme Hero
Blind Sage
posted June 02, 2010 11:51 PM

@Geny, every organizer makes mistake, you said yourself the Israeli side had poor planning, perhaps the ship's organizer had too?
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2010 12:05 AM

The difference is that the organizers knew that Israel won't let them come in. This is a fact because Israel stated it several times before the flotilla even got underway. Israel also tried to come up with alternatives, but all of them were refused right away by the organizers. Their target was to try and break the maritime blockade of Gaza, they stated so themselves several times.
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Carcity
Carcity


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Blind Sage
posted June 03, 2010 12:26 AM

Well do you justify the blockade? The ships was just sending supplies to Gaza.
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baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted June 03, 2010 01:30 AM

Quote:
when the security of Israeli civilians is at stake, the government is prepared to cross certain borders, just like any goverment should.

It's not about who's prepared to cross certain borders, it's about who's allowed to. Or, in other words, who's got his back covered by bigger players.

Meh. Politics.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2010 07:38 AM

@Carcity: It's a war. Blockades are part of that. Since when have war's been justified? They never have been and never will be.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted June 03, 2010 08:37 AM

Quote:
Well do you justify the blockade? The ships was just sending supplies to Gaza.


"Yes, do a short stop so we can be sure that you don't smuggle in weapons"
"No, we are going to run straight trough and your not going to stop us."
"*sigh* Why do i work on this job?"

I would say the real problem is that they do not bother to sit down around a table and solve the damn conflict with words.
We got a religious oppression because life is snow on 1 side, on the other side we got the Jews which for some obscure reason are about to be torched without a question when something happens....
On 1 side we do have a morally questionable blockade, on the other side we got civilians shooting homemade rockets and missiles down on Israels civilian population.
Both sides must agree to be civil, and stop this madness. Of  course they are not going to, they did not go it ages ago..... Grrrr
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted June 03, 2010 10:41 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/world/middleeast/03flotilla.html
It doesn't matter whether this or that is right or wrong - this conflict is as old as the state Israel, the blockade in effect since 2007.
What is important, is this (quote from the abobe NYTIMES article):

Quote:
The crisis is the latest in a series of Israeli decisions devised to secure the nation, and while each was to some degree tactically successful, each also further undermined its international legitimacy and increased its international isolation, policy experts here said. Those actions included building a barrier along the border with the West Bank to keep out suicide bombers; bombing Lebanon to try to disarm Hezbollah; invading Gaza in response to Hamas rocket fire; and blockading Gaza to keep out weapons.

Yaacov Bar-Siman-Tov, a professor of international studies at Hebrew University, said the nation’s leadership had failed to improve its problem with legitimacy because it focuses on tactics, like destroying enemies, rather than on a long-term strategy aimed at an ultimate settlement with the Palestinians.

“What would we like to achieve here?” Mr. Bar-Siman-Tov said. “If you would like to keep the Jewish state we have to be separated from the Palestinians. There is no way to continue with the occupation. It has created damage to our credibility and legitimacy.”


At this time Israel is facing criticism from the whole world, including the US, and that criticism gets ever stronger. If Israel continues this policy it will isolate itself ever more. That Egypt has temporarily opened their Gaza access and Turkey recalled their ambassador in Israel, is more than enough warning, that Israel has reached the end of what they can afford to do.

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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2010 01:08 PM

I partially agree with you. Only partially because the reason for the ever growing isolation is not only the policy itself (and maybe even not so much the policy itself), but also Israel's complete failure in PR work, especially in the last couple of years. For some reason the government doesn't seem to realize that the psychological warfare is not any less important important than physical warfare in the modern age. The Palestinians and their suppoerters, on the other hand, use the various media to the fullest and reap the benefits.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2010 01:22 PM

I think you meant information warfare, no?
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2010 02:53 PM

Information warfare is a part of psychological warfare. Though, that is the main part I was talking about, yes.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted June 03, 2010 08:58 PM

@JJ

The New York Times is a leftist rag. No, Isreal's actions have not undermined its legitimacy. If you read the things I quoted you see they were within international law to stop the ships running the blockade.

The terrorists on the last ship initiated the violence. The cowardly HAMAS always hides amoung civilians to try to murder people. They have no honor.

The video tells the tale for all who want to know the truth. The HAMAS murderers attacked first.

Yeah, Obama is anti-Jewish and pro-"Palesinian" just like his pastor of 20 years, Jeremiah Wright. It is also very informative that a number of Obama associates are associated with the flotilla, HAMAS, and the PLO. Of course Jessee Jackson before Obama was elected said Obama would be "anti-Zionist" and pro-"Palesinian."

But the American people as a whose stand behind Israel. Anyways, those who hate Israel will continue to hate Israal no matter what. "Israel is wrong until proven wrong" is their policy.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted June 03, 2010 09:07 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 21:11, 03 Jun 2010.

Elodin, if I may widen the discussion beyond this specific case, Hamas is the creation of the powers-that-be, thanks to the negative and predictable consequences of forced democracy and intervention.

I'm not going to defend Palestine, as it is unworthy to defend, but there is joint guilt in this ongoing situation. There is no "good guy" among the dominate factions.





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Binabik
Binabik


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posted June 03, 2010 10:06 PM

I don't think any significant portion of the US population is strongly behind Israel. I think it's more along the lines that Israel has always been backed by the US government, and the citizens had no reason to think otherwise. For the most part it's simply a non-issue for most Americans (the obvious exception being American Jews).

But yes, Israel is quickly losing their backing, apparently from around the world. It's not so much that people are so "against" Israel, it's more like they are sick and tired of hearing about it. I've been hearing about the bull**** surrounding Israel for over 40 years, and a lot of people have been hearing about it a lot longer than that. It gets old after a while and people look at what's really going on and why, and eventually they simply stop having any sympathy for the Israelis.

I was hearing about that bull**** during the Vietnam War. It was in the news almost as much as Vietnam. Vietnam came and went. Hundreds of other wars and conflicts came and went. And all the while the same old crap keeps happening in the Sinai Peninsula, or the Golan Heights, or the Gaza Strip, or the West Bank, or whatever. It’s never-ending and people are tired of it.

The formation of Israel was a mistake, a BIG mistake. It has been nothing but trouble since the beginning, and even before that. To form a country in a contested area where they are massively outnumbered and surrounded by people who hate them is just plain stupid. People may argue with that, but that's the perception people have and that's what counts.

But that's in the past, what's done is done. Israel exists, for good or bad. The UN backed the formation of Israel. Now that it's done the UN can either stand behind its decision and back Israel, I mean SERIOUSLY back it with SERIOUS military force until the conflict is resolved. Or it can make a sacrificial lamb of Israel and let it be overrun. But either way the bull**** needs to stop. If that means making the entire region part of the Mediterranean Sea then so be it.

Israel is making the same mistake many other countries have made in the past. They continue fighting a war that they can't win. Those types of wars have a bad habit of ending the same way, with total annihilation. My opinion is that Israel should be abandoned and the best thing for the people who live there is to get the hell out while they still have a chance.

If Israel really wants to be a nation and really wants to have peace, then they need to make some progress NOW. They are quickly losing any backing and sympathy they once had. If they don't do something soon, they will lose that backing entirely. And when that happens the country will be completely overrun and simply cease to exist.

Some governments may still back Israel, but when they lose the support of the people the governments will eventually follow. In the US the Jewish population has a strong lobby whines enough that they get their way. That's not going to last.

The Jews bring on most of their troubles themselves. The Jews need to stop being Jews and start being people.

Enough is enough. People are sick of it.

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
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of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 03, 2010 10:17 PM

imagine me having a fight with lexxan,he stills my underware so i still hes socks... xerox wants to intervine on lexxans behalf but i told him that if he does i will be angry, 5 people agreed to intervine acording to a code of conduct that i set for them,but xeroex didn't and he tried to punch me,so i killed him,out of self defence.

Basicly let me explain what geny tried over and over:
Israel was against the ships comming,and stated meny times over that won't go unnoticed - FACT
Israel would let the humennitarian supplies reach Gaza once it would be
inspected and proved to be it - FACT
The ships have been warned - FACT
Israel peacefully captured 5 out of 6 ships - FACT
to that specific ship 6 soliders ware lynched by the messes.-FACT
6 Commando units,against over 40 armed men. - FACT
those Commando's had Antiriot rifel as first weapon and handgun as second - FACT
There are footage of the lynch,the amount of weapons found,and for some reason,very little medical supply's - FACT
15 dead on there side,6 wounded,all six,would you rather have 6 dead commandos? then israel would have legitimstion to destory turky?
why is it okay to traspass anyway? Israel Clearly said,NO,This is our buisness. it was a power struggle,and i hope it will teach the world not to mess with israel again,ever.
As for Rachel Corrie, who arrives starday-sunday night, should be carefull,for our commandos will not be hurt again,nor will there be only 6 imo.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted June 03, 2010 10:50 PM

Quote:
Israel has reached the end of what they can afford to do.
Quote:
They are quickly losing any backing and sympathy they once had.
People say this every time Israel does something, but it hasn't been right yet.
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