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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Dragon Slaughter
Thread: The Dragon Slaughter [ This thread is 43 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 (12) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 ]
TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 20, 2011 06:29 AM
Edited by TheGodLoki at 13:30, 20 Jun 2011.

Hi guys and thanks for an awesome map.

I've had a few attempts at the other guys (other than Azrael) but it's extremely tough

As expected I'm doing pretty well with Azrael. My skelly warriors are godly killing pretty much everything in one hit and with double-strike, hit all round and no retal, the second hit finishes off if the enemy has block. I now have the full TDS set

I did pick up problems though:
1. Fighting against conflux heroes bring up weird glitches with skellies because of the conflux commander specialty. My skellies are all pushed together into one group in the fight and I sometimes end up with a lot more skellies than I started. It shows empty slots but if I move 1 skelly over from the main group the original group returns. Weird! I made "before" screenshots and cleaned up my skellies afterwards, dumping the extras.

2. How do I do option 8(d) in the pandora box quest? I can't kill them all no matter what I try.

3. Where are the 4 areas for the tome quest? It's a bit too vague as 7 days is not enough to explore a 2-level XL map, especially since you only have an 8% out of 8% chance to get the tomes.

4. After I beat Roland I got errors in the fight against Catherine following that fight, so I was forced to flee. Do I need to beat her?

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2011 01:21 PM
Edited by JimV at 13:26, 20 Jun 2011.

@TGL,

After reading that about four times I think I have it mostly figured out, although I could easily be wrong.

1. I think this refers to the Astral Spirit's Pacification ability causing a creature-experience overflow when pacified troops are returned after a battle.  Heroes 3/WoG was not designed for creature numbers such that the total troop experience exceeds the maximum positive value of a 4-byte integer (2.147 billion).  A similar problem could occur with the Succubus when enemy creatures are added before a battle.  The only way I can think of to prevent this with ERM code is to eliminate those types of Commanders (or just the Astral Spirit, since the Succubus action is voluntary) from the map - unless someone knows a UN:C code to disable the Pacification skill.

2. What the heck option 8(d) is = one of the many things I don't know, but the Behemoth will fight you after you ally with him.  As with a lot of things in this map, you have to keep trying the same thing and hope that you get a different result, Einstein's aphorism not withstanding.

3. The game area is from x=69 to 143, and y=0 to 62, underground.  It is divided into four regions horizontally for the different Tomes. (What would be a good Rumor of the Day hint for this?)

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Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2011 02:13 PM

I have 2 patches: one is for Succubus, the other is for the Beast. No astral spirit still

$76CC35 (7785525) => $90$90 (37008)
$769A28 (7772712) => $90$90 (37008)

!!UN:C7785525/2/37008;
!!UN:C7772712/2/37008;


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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2011 03:29 PM
Edited by JimV at 15:41, 20 Jun 2011.

Thanks, Berserker (and again for ERA).  What do those patches do (maybe it is discussed elsewhere)?

And a belated thanks to TGL for the bug report.  I have updated the maps at http://www.box.net/shared/bj1eh6b50e as follows:

The Faerie Dragon Game-Master now says "... Each Tome is in a different 1/4 of this island! ..."

AI heroes with Astral Spirit commanders will have them changed to Succubi before battle:

ZVSE

* TDS_PacificationFix, JHV, June 20, 2011
* fix for "The Dragon Slaughter" Astral Spirit/Pacification Exp. Overflow

!?BA0&1000;
!!BA:H0/?v1 H1/?v2 O?v3/?v4; att. & def. Heroes & Owners
!!FU&v2=-2:E; no defender
!!OW:Iv3/?i Iv4/?j; i,j=1=AI
!!COv1:H?m; Hero type, side 0
!!COv1&i=1/m>15:T3; set AI Astral Spirit to Succubus
!!COv2:H?n; Hero type, side 1
!!COv2&j=1/n>15:T3; set AI Astral Spirit to Succubus

Edit:  I see I didn't respond to TGL's part 4.  I haven't played as Azrael, so a better-informed responder is needed, but my understanding is that the fight with Catherine is not supposed to be won by Azrael, and that after he retreats he will get his troops back, or some of them.  If there was a bug report in there it wasn't specific enough for me to do anything about it.

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Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2011 03:59 PM

Quote:
Thanks, Berserker (and again for ERA).  What do those patches do (maybe it is discussed elsewhere)?

The pleasure was mine.
The patches disable Succubus and Beast abilities at all (they maybe be scripted still).
//By the way, I'm working on the second version of ERA, written from scratch. Some debugging features will definitely make the life of script writer a bit more pleasant.
/// It's a pity that you have not came to the agreement on the company you worked on with Salamandre. Though personally I dont like such rpg/quest modes, the atmosphere in the map is amazing.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2011 05:48 PM
Edited by JimV at 21:12, 20 Jun 2011.

@Bersey,

Thanks for the additional note on the Commander patches.

I agree with you about the Shining Force emulation.  All I can say is that I finished adding and testing all my scripts and uploaded them with play-test notes on EmailJV.zip at Box.net, and I think the map there is playable although not polished.  The atmosphere is of course due to Salamandre.  Programming in ERA was interesting and much more powerful than ERM, but it took me about a month to find out how not to use it (numerous crashes).  (Of course the same was true of ERM.)

I also agree about RPG's, but having ERM and ERA tend to push one in that direction, as a map-maker.  That is, it is much easier to think of interesting code for specific RPG events than to write a general code to add new strategy options, which will be balanced for all sides.  The WoG team should have concentrated on making the AI smarter and adding new features (creatures, etc.) rather than giving us ERM, if they didn't want more RPG maps.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 20, 2011 06:26 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:42, 20 Jun 2011.

I agree, once you have ERA + DL trigger I can't see other way than going for more RPG. I know that MOP is using it for adding new features in the game-play rather than map-making or RPG but in my opinion his mod will be ignored and unpopular, wait and see.

To make it successful, RPG needs experience and experience again. 300 Spartans was the first attempt, then SAR. Shining Force was much more complex, but the changes in the game-play were not enjoyed or understood by the veterans players testing them at my request. No players, no motivation to continue.

I would insist on one thing, which makes default today in the modding community: pure HoMM experience. Most scripters and mod creators start their Heroes experience without having a strong legacy and achievements in no ERM game, as Fnord had, both in H2 and H3.

My opinion was and remains still: be able to create several successful no ERM maps or campaigns, and then one is ready to use ERM in. The game is very complex and offers almost unlimited possibilities before going in ERM. I made the mistake of ignoring the initial construction and then the new ideas had no solid bases.

This is mostly my feeling when playing TDS, most of battle strategies and possible expansion ideas are thrown away for a confusing and buggy leaders customization. The idea is great, but the game-play does not suit, after an interesting first week, it goes same and same until the end. The map design is basic and does not explore the endless editor possibilities-

(well, I know Berserker is against "pîxel hunting", but he is in the minority, most of players want them, because analyzing the surrounding area is a strong part of the gameplay, anyone who dared to play H2 then H3 thousand custom maps could notice this exponential concern among the best mapmakers on how to create complex paths and puzzles).

It still offers what no other maps did before, playing with million of uber creatures, which I guess is the reason for its extreme popularity among chineses. But it requires more reloading than brilliant ideas to succeed. Still I could complete all the races without having bugs, I guess the 8 leaders must be eliminated as soon as possible, either there will be some problems. Maybe a detailed walk-through should be written, as the plot is far from being intuitive, thus the endless questions on "what to do". Myself I could not complete it the first time without constantly peeking into scripts and analyze outcome.
____________

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TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 21, 2011 05:27 AM
Edited by TheGodLoki at 05:42, 21 Jun 2011.

Thanks Jim.

There'a another I forgot to mention. I switched off the 4k limit but most of the time I only get 4k skeletons (2667 skelly warriors) no matter how many troops I fight. There have been occasions where I got many more (27k on occasions). I usually only get more than 4k if I fight events. I've got 2 heroes with over 1 mill skelly warriors each so I still managed to build a massive army even with that "glitch".

I ran away from that fight with Catherine and got teleported close to my home town with all my troops (I think).

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TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 21, 2011 06:19 AM

Quote:


(well, I know Berserker is against "pîxel hunting", but he is in the minority, most of players want them, because analyzing the surrounding area is a strong part of the gameplay, anyone who dared to play H2 then H3 thousand custom maps could notice this exponential concern among the best mapmakers on how to create complex paths and puzzles).

It still offers what no other maps did before, playing with million of uber creatures, which I guess is the reason for its extreme popularity among chineses. But it requires more reloading than brilliant ideas to succeed. Still I could complete all the races without having bugs, I guess the 8 leaders must be eliminated as soon as possible, either there will be some problems. Maybe a detailed walk-through should be written, as the plot is far from being intuitive, thus the endless questions on "what to do". Myself I could not complete it the first time without constantly peeking into scripts and analyze outcome.


I would like to know what "as soon as possible" means. When I played Dungeon I attacked Azrael in week 2 (couldn't get there sooner because it took me a week to get into the water) and he had 17 fully experienced dracoliches and good backup. Add to that his +30 all skills which the AI leaders start with it was impossible. When I played Azrael I only went after the leaders when I had my unbeatable skelly warrior army.

This map is fun but I'm not too keen on having the need to edit a map for help. Many of the things is hidden and almost impossible to get without a walkthrough and checking the map in editor.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2011 03:53 PM
Edited by JimV at 19:26, 21 Jun 2011.

There was a text adventure game called "Zork" which was played on mainframe computers when I was in college.  To kill the thief, you had to find the rusty knife and use it, not the sword or the shiny knife or anything else.  To beat the Cyclops, you had to shout "Ulysses!".  As far as I know, there were no hints or clues within the game, you just had to use trial and error and lucky guesses.  I didn't enjoy the game, but lots of people did.  The way it worked was that people would give or trade the tricks they had learned to others.  I see some similarity between "Zork" and "The Dragon Slaughter".  I myself would rather play a game in which things can be figured out rationally (which is why I added the Rumor of the Day), but I know there are people who enjoy the trading-secrets mode, probably millions of them in China, and to each his or her own.  (Although perhaps there were subtle clues in the original Chinese dialogs, which were Greek to us.)

As far as I know, the "4000 limit" is for the growth of neutral creatures, not Necromancy.  Whatever happens with Necromancy is internal to the Heroes 3 program - which again was not designed or tested for such huge numbers of creatures.

To kill AI leaders rapidly, some players attack a Death Chamber, get ghosts, and rapidly build up their ghost factor to 100-300K.  Other players, who focus on developing their henchmen and commander, have been known to call such players "weinies" or the feminine version thereof.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2011 04:50 PM

Playing with ghost is fun, I did it both in Chaser and TDS. But once done, I don't see the point of repeating this strategy when trying other races. It is strange that in both his maps, Woodmelon placed death chambers, like he did not thrust other way of playing than exaggerated overpower. At second and further tries, in my opinion it is more interesting to profit from his hard work on the unique leaders and commanders/henchman features.

As for hints, the map design makes useless 9/10 of events. In fact, you don't need neither armor of invincibility, nor the tomes game, nor the orb, nor the lighthouse quest. Once you have access to emerald towers, in a few months your improved creatures will outcome everything on the map, not speaking about ghosts strategy, where you don't even need to build anything. You can complain that your necromancy is buggy, but there will be no difference between having 100 millions or 50 millions skeletons. It will still be instant death for everything on your way.
____________

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TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 22, 2011 05:25 AM
Edited by TheGodLoki at 05:37, 22 Jun 2011.

I got one tome in the area where the Faerie dragon is, #2 in the area next to that one after the first garrison, #3 in the area with the white clouds, but can't find #4. Game over. I tried the area behind the white and blue garrison with no luck. Help?

No worries. Found it on the small area where the behemoth tomb is.

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TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 22, 2011 08:35 AM

Quote:
@TGL,

3. The game area is from x=69 to 143, and y=0 to 62, underground.  It is divided into four regions horizontally for the different Tomes. (What would be a good Rumor of the Day hint for this?)


I must be missing something. I replayed the game and got the first 3 tomes on the first day. I saved the area by the Faerie dragon for the last tome and I've been running that road non-stop with no luck. Game over again. I decided to keep replaying the last day. Still no luck after many many repeats.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2011 02:50 PM

@TGL,

I don't have any information which you don't have, if you read this thread and the game instructions.  Maybe someone else does.  I'll summarize what I know:

a) It is possible to have millions of gold to buy more movement points.

b) Right-clicking the Surface/Underground icon will end the game and let you start a new game (removing any Tomes you have).

c) It is not necessary to win "The Game" (of Tomes) to win the game.

d) Others have won "The Game" so it is not impossible.

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Maciek
Maciek


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2011 05:05 PM

@JimV
As for hints you could elaborate on The Doctor's summoning elementals mechanics. I wrote something about it on page 10, 3rd post from top, in point 6 of the post. The Doctor also summons some elementals within battle(I haven't tested what do their numbers depend from).

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songfx
songfx


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2011 05:32 PM

@Maciek
Quote:
5. I guess the following is a well known trick, but I noticed it just recently: I noticed that if I dismiss a hero and then rehire him the same day(after hiring some other hero first so that the dismissed hero can appear in the tavern), that dismissed hero has full movement again! It can not always be used effectively, but here you have a limited pool of heroes so this trick is easier to execute. That said, I wonder how fast can people beat this map(I haven't tried actually doing a speedrun): 3 weeks? Gold may be a problem early on. 4 weeks maybe?


Theoretically speaking, two days is enough.
Gold is not problem if you change your commander to Brute.

____________
Chinese WOG Forum

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2011 05:53 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 17:57, 22 Jun 2011.

I don't see any way to rush the map, as with most of leaders you will have to fight Roland (incredible defense) + a final battle (incredible HP+damage), and both require multiple visits to war academy and emerald tower, which means defeating 3000x7 serpent flies and 2000x7 enchanters (all of them with various abilities including full magic immunity).

Leaders can be defeated going in straight line, but after that you will have to get a real army over time. The fastest would be Azrael, and easiest battles are for Hulk, as ghost behemots ignore defense. But if you plan to play with ghosts, then any leader is easy and a rush is possible, but I would not call it a valuable win. And selling some ghosts to the freelancer will make you richer than Cressus.
____________

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2011 09:18 PM

@Maciek,

Thanks for the suggestion.  It was not the type of thing I am looking for, however, as it is something that players can get information on within the game and figure out for themselves.  I am more concerned with giving clues to help players figure out things which they otherwise might easily miss.  I don't want to give exact technical details, but hints.  Example:

"The Orb of Air floats high.  You will need a way to see farther than with a telescope and from higher than a lookout."

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TheGodLoki
TheGodLoki

Tavern Dweller
posted June 23, 2011 07:23 AM

Level up bug

I picked up another bug. I found the 115 million experience event. I used that to push my level over 100, but occassionally I noticed that with one visit it levels up multiple times. Now that I'm doing the Game over again I got to a point where I could not stop levelling up and I had to reload the game.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 23, 2011 02:41 PM

@TGL,

I don't know what the 115 million experience event is (there are a lot of events which could give high experience, none that I know of which give exactly 115 million every time - having just checked all of the map text for that number), but in any case, excessive leveling sounds easy to fix:

!#UN:J1/120/?v1; set maximum hero level for this map to 120

I tried this in a test map, and it worked there.  In practice, this actually stopped at 108 in my tests.  Things start to go uphill rapidly after 108.

This change has been added to the maps at:

http://www.box.net/shared/bj1eh6b50e

Note:  such changes are also possible to saved games, so that they don't have to be restarted, in most cases.

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