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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Dragon Slaughter
Thread: The Dragon Slaughter This thread is 53 pages long: 1 10 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 20 30 40 50 53 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 22, 2011 01:20 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 01:32, 22 Jul 2011.

Thank you. Should be this version added to main post or anyone is still asking for immortal henchman?


ERA is showing superfluous exclamation points as errors before initializing. Maybe they should be deleted, to avoid confusion:


Script War machine I:

"there is a creature to resurrect!!!"

Script Artificer I and II

"[AI don't need mithril!!!]" both times

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 22, 2011 05:37 AM

When you say immortal henchmen, are we talking about resurrection (Archangel's ability) or rebirth (Phoenix ability)?  The part of the script which I changed would only keep Xarfax's Second Henchman from being able to resurrect other troops forever.  Maybe something else is required.

ERA is being a bit over-zealous to question multiple exclamation points within ^^, because they cannot do any harm there, but I don't mind because they are bad English.  There is no different meaning between "!", "!!", "!!!", and so on.  An exclamation is an exclamation.  There is no "double exclamation", "triple exclamation", and so on.  The same is true of periods and questions marks and colons and commas.  (There is the ellipsis, composed of three periods, but it has a different meaning than periods.  Multiple ellipses would also be pointless.  There's a grammarian's joke in there if you look hard.)  Repetitions of the same punctuation mark only take up space and contribute to global warming.  The only point in adding extra exclamation points (there I go again) would be to try to set a Guiness World Record.  In my humble opinion, as we say on the internet, but I've never seen multiple exclamation points in books by Hemingway or Solzhenitsyn.  (I know they appear in comic books.)

So I will do a search for triple exclamation points in the exported text, and replace them.  I also plan to take out my Tactics and Succubus changes, because I don't think they are necessary now that the revised catapult DEF is part of that package, and the Experience Check has been improved to allow for First Aid Tent resurrections.  There is still a logistical problem transferring a large number of creatures to a garrison or between Heroes.  The most I can transfer is about 30,000, otherwise they disappear in the destination slot.  At the moment I don't know a way to fix that.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 22, 2011 05:44 AM

I know about ERA and exclamation points. They could be removed because it keeps showing the "error" at each game load. So far, the only ones it shows I quoted in previous post.

Henchman: they rebirth endless. The only way is to do auto battle, but this means we have to be superior in power, does not takes in consideration the human brain.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 22, 2011 06:56 AM
Edited by JimV at 04:28, 23 Jul 2011.

The maps I just revised and uploaded to TDS.rar have multiple !'s removed and don't show error messages when I start them under ERA.  I also added the BG0-->BG1 patch for Lord Haart's battle terrain ability to version 2.07E, which didn't have it.

I am confused about the henchmen rebirth, which I have never seen in my games as Lord Haart, Orrin, and The Doctor, nor in my five recent test runs in which I played as Red but put Sir Mullich in front of the Hall of Hell with 400 Supreme Archangels, and attacked Xarfax on day one.  I don't recall for sure what Second Henchman he had in my previous games, but in the test run he always had Supreme Archangels, and they had infinite resurrections but no rebirth (four out of five times; the fifth time they had infinite retaliations instead).

Maybe you are talking about the (first) Henchman, the Banshee?  That I haven't had a problem with either.  I didn't use QC in any of my test runs, nor in my fights with him as the Doctor or Orrin, as I recall.  Maybe I did something in version 2.06J about this which I have forgotten.  I have done most of my games in 2.06J.  I'll try some tests in 2.07E.

Meanwhile, I don't think I have yet addressed your real problem with Xarfax - unless as I say it was something I did long ago in 2.06J.

Edit - I did my Mullich day-one test in version 2.07E under ERA, and saw no rebirths.  I am afraid I will probably need a saved game to understand this issue better.

Second edit - I have started a new game and played through the defeat of Xarfax with no problem, and spoken to another player who defeated Xarfax and recalls no problem.  In all of my tests, Xarfax's Second Henchman never had the Rebirth ability (verified by displaying the creature's Experience Screen during battle).  So far I have been able to think of only one explanation which fits all the facts:

Hypothesis:  you are playing using a Heroes system which has been modified to add a creature at creature number 126 (unused in standard Heroes III), and that creature has the rebirth ability.

This is just a guess and unlikely to be correct, but it would explain why the X2H never has rebirth on my system and does on yours.  The Xarfax script uses creature 126 to store the special abilities of the X2H, and at the start of a battle involving Xarfax, whatever special abilities creature 126 has are transferred to the X2H using EA:O.  
If this is the case, the change I made to eliminate an infinite number of castings might fix the problem on your system.  However, the X2H could still have up to four rebirths, whereas Woodmelon planned for it to have none (as an angel/Archangel/Supreme Archangel; if the Hidden Race is used for Orange, it could be a Phoenix).


Another explanation would be that creature 126 is being used by some other script, but I did a search of the map text for "!!EA126", and the only places it occurs are in the Xarfax script, so that possibility seems to be eliminated.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 23, 2011 04:35 AM

I remember always meeting Xarfax with an annoying henchman, infinite rebirth, I don't know what to say. I will try necropolis these days, when I get to Xarfax I will check again. Would be possible to eliminate all those "infinite" things, as often is more annoying than enthralling?
What others say?
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 23, 2011 06:37 AM
Edited by JimV at 07:29, 23 Jul 2011.

Infinite rebirth should be eliminated from any game, and was not intended by Woodmelon as far as I can see from the scripts.  He only intended to have infinite resurrections (by Archangels/SA, as one possible upgrade), infinite retaliations (like a Royal Griffin) - and of course for the Sacred Phoenix "Hidden Boss", 10 rebirths per battle round, which is infinite rebirths as long as there are less than 10 per round.

Infinite resurrections, along with the Blind spell, would be a useful tactic for a human player, and probably the AI is not smart enough to use it, so I am a bit reluctant to eliminate it from someone else's game.  Certainly a version 2.07B could be released with this change, though.

Until I see how any creature is getting infinite rebirths in TDS, I don't know how to eliminate it.  So far I have fought Xarfax nine times without seeing any of his creatures reborn.  (Any other AI Hero might have a Phoenix randomly assigned as its Henchman, but not Xarfax, as far as I can tell.)

I recommend making a test map with a powerful Hero placed near Xarfax's Inferno, so he can be attacked on day 1 and his creature's special abilities can be displayed.  If the problem is time-related, the attack could be delayed until day 2, day 3, and so on.

This would help determine where and how the Rebirth ability is being applied, and after it did appear, would answer the question of whether my setting v7511 to 1 converts infinite rebirth to finite rebirth.  I don't seem to be able to get this information on my system, unfortunately.

Once it is found I have no doubt that it should be eliminated, as I do not believe it was intended by Woodmelon.

Edit - I tried my own advice, attacking after 1 day, 1 week, and 1 month (so far).  Xarfax never had Rebirth, but at 1 month Pyre was guarding the Inferno, and she had a Troll as her Henchman and an Angel as her Second Henchman.  The Troll had Rebirth, but only used it once.

A new hypothesis comes to mind.  I recall that in my SGA_Replicators script, the Replicator Kings (Magic Elementals) were given Rebirth and Additional Castings and the Replicators (Energy Elementals) were not, yet the Replicators had multiple rebirths in battle, even after the Replicator Kings were dead.  This seems to indicate that when the Rebirth special ability is applied to a creature which does not normally have it, that ability is applied to other creatures on the same side in battle (or maybe only if the first creature is immune to magic).  (The Special Abilities seem prone to glitches, in my experience.)  Perhaps a Henchman with Rebirth and a Second Henchman Archangel with Additional Castings could form a lethal combination.  I will test this separately - but not tonight.

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Bersy
Bersy


Honorable
Supreme Hero
posted July 23, 2011 01:21 PM

The same thing was reported on russian forum yesterday. In Phoenix we have mixed neutrals (7 random stacks per each neutral monster on the map) and if the ability is set via stack experience, it's applied not only to the top stack, but to the second also. Worth checking in ERM sources in the feature.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 23, 2011 02:54 PM

Bersey, thanks for the interesting information.  That matches the conditions I spoke of.  The Replicator Kings were a neutral army, but in battles Replicators were added to them via ERM.  The RK's would have been the top stack (21), and the R's the second stack (22).  I didn't mind the way this turned out, in that map, but it was not what I had expected.

The Henchman and Second Henchman in TDS are summoned at the start of a battle, so they would have consecutive stack numbers, and I think the Henchman is summoned first.  Your clue will be valuable in designing tests.

I have also (in Salamandre's great "Star Gate Atlantis Rising") sometimes seen Special Abilities cross the battle lines.  When fighting some creatures which cast Forgetfulness, Teyla gained this ability for the battle duration.  It was very helpful in that battle, so I did not complain.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 23, 2011 04:40 PM

On the other side the genii soldiers stole the lightning bolt from Sheppard, and I had to remove all their direct damage spell abilities.
Every time I fought them they had our abilities and deadly. Definitely bug.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 23, 2011 07:58 PM
Edited by JimV at 20:00, 23 Jul 2011.

The facts (?) as I see them:

1) Unless Xarfax (Orange) is played by a human who chooses the Hidden Race, he will always have the Banshee (Succubus) as his first Henchman and an Angel/Archangel/Supreme Archangel as his Second Henchman.  (If played by an AI and attacked, he will have a Supreme Archangel of level 49 or higher).

2) The Banshee and SAA never have Rebirth, under Xarfax.  The SAA used to have a chance of three casts per battle round (effectively infinite resurrections), but that possibility was removed in my last revision.

So the only way I see for Xarfax to have previously had a henchman with infinite rebirths is if the Rebirth Special Ability crosses the battle lines from the attacking side, somehow.  So far I have never seen this particular ability do that in any map, so I expect that it is a rare occurrence (probably both creatures involved have to have a 102 "flagged" ability).  However,

3) All other "Leaders" have the possibility of selecting Rebirth as a Second Henchman ability, either deliberately by a human player or randomly for AI players.

4) There is a single type of 2H creature which can receive many castings (as far as I have found), the Fairie Dragon:

(Line 195 of the "Second Henchman 1" script)

!!BMv5500&w162<200/v5500>-1/w160=134/y-12>0:E5000;  ×ÏÁúÊ©·¨ÎÞÏÞ

5) A combination of the Rebirth ability and 5000 casts leads to an effectively unkillable stack, as can be demonstrated in a test map using the following script:

ZVSE

* RebirthTest, JHV, July 23, 2011
* give Peasant Rebirth and BM:E5000

!#EA139:F102/114/?v1; v1=line for ability 102/114, or empty line if none, -1 if no free lines
!#EA139&v1>-1:Bv1/1/102/114/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1;  rebirth

* battle with neutral army of Peasants (at least 35 so first stack has at least 5 - rebirths are only 20% of original number)

!?BF;
!!BM21:E5000; first stack of defenders gets 5000 casts

6) Trolls and Phoenixes have the Rebirth ability as one of their standard abilities.

So if a Hero in TDS has a Faerie Dragon for a Second Henchman, and that FD has the Rebirth ability, or some other creature has it and the ability migrates to the FD - this will be a difficult hero to beat.  I haven't checked, but I expect Woodmelon will not allow a FD to be given Rebirth, leaving the migration issue - which we have seen examples of elsewhere as noted in previous comments.

If this combination occurs, re-loading a saved game and re-fighting the battle would usually cause a different sort of 2H to be selected randomly (except for Xarfax).

In summary, under the hypothesis developed above, the only thing I can  think of to do to prevent this problem in TDS is to remove the option of having a Faerie Dragon with 5000 casts as a Second Henchman - maybe give it 10 casts instead of 5000?

Of course, there may be something else involved.  Until I see a saved game with the actual problem I can't confirm or refute my hypothesis.



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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 24, 2011 04:30 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 17:07, 24 Jul 2011.

In Azrael script there is a typo:

!!IF&y7>0:Q1^It will cost you %Y5 gold and y%Y7 mercury for %Y8 %Z5.  Is this acceptable, lord?^;

Maybe correct at next release. I could not test Xarfax henchman because he fled before I could move. The backside when playing with Azrael is that he is very unpopular, nobody wants to fight him...(maybe it has something to do with the 500k skeletons I had, who knows)

I wonder what it will happen if I decide to go with blood dragons, and get the vampire suck life thing. They already have it, but it is chance based, not permanent. Will the first invalidate the second?
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 24, 2011 06:16 PM
Edited by JimV at 18:24, 24 Jul 2011.

The typo will be corrected in my next Box.net revisions, thank you.

Would it be possible to load a saved game, dismiss most of the Skeletons, and attack Xarfax, just as a test case to see if infinite rebirths happen?  (Maybe then you won't be stong enough to kill the Henchman, but perhaps editing the saved game could make this possible.)

It occurred to me that I don't think I have ever been to the Palace of Dreams* to add Special Abilities prior to fighting Xarfax.  That is certainly true in all of my recent tests, and I think it is also true of my games as Orrin, Lord Haart, and The Doctor.  I try to conquer all the AI leaders first (perhaps this is not the right strategy).  Since the only cases of "ability migration" which I know of happened when creatures had Special Abilities added via ERM, that may be the reason that I have never had a problem with Xarfax's Henchmen.

(*Note to lurkers - Woodmelon's Palace of Dreams in The Dragon Slaughter is not the standard WoG script but a new one - which is better than the WoG one in my opinion, although perhaps too powerful for basic maps.)

Speaking of the Palace of Dreams, it annoys me that there are two PoD's on the map, but only one of them can be visited per week.  (Visiting either sets the other to "visited".)  This not the case for Emerald Towers, which have a similar use.  Both PoD have events guarding them, and surviving those events should have equal rewards, it seems to me.  Having both PoD active would speed up the game a small amount, and waiting another week to get an ability I need is not enjoyable.  So I have modified Woodmelon's PoD script to make it work like Emerald Towers (each can be visited once per week), and tested it, but before I upload this revision I am asking if there are any objections to this.

Summary of proposed changes for next revision:

1. Fix the y%Y7 typo.

2. Make both Palace of Dream objects visitable once per week.

3. Leave the Fairie Dragon Henchman code alone for now, since no one has reported a problem with it, and I don't want to go too far in changing Woodmelon's map.  There might be some quest which I am not familiar with which Woodmelon designed that option for.

4. Continue to hope that eliminating infinite spell castings for Xarfax's Second Henchman (when played by the computer) has eliminated the infinite rebirth problem.  That is, do nothing further on this issue until this hope is refuted by new information.

Edit - I forgot to respond to the Blood Dragon question, not that I know the answer.  I think the quickest, most reliable way to answer this, involving the least eyestrain, would be to do a test within the game - assuming you already have a saved game with Blood Dragons.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 24, 2011 09:53 PM

I don't know, I never felt I needed POD to give me faster abilities, usually I upgrade only one creature and 8 visits are enough. On the other side, I even added one emerald tower to the original version because it went too slow regardless Roland strength. But several features in the selectable options could be replaced with much better ones.

-troops can be left on map, very bad thing, extreme cheat.
-the sphinx one, just let it visitable
-the main AI heros can learn all spells except banned, makes it any difference?

If it was for my enjoyment, I would replace them by:

-all heros are available in tavern (so we can use that altair of sacrifice for evil sides as well)for every faction
-spoil of war can give commander artefacts as well
-Universities skills change every month
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 25, 2011 12:07 AM

I don't hear an objection of the form "if you do this it will make the game worse for me because -", so since it would help me and not hurt anyone else I am inclined to apply the PoD change, at least to version 2.06J.  Mainly, it seems inconsistent and misleading to me to have two objects of the same kind but only one of them visitable.  I have used it to give creatures "hit and return" (Harpy ability), the Champion's charge bonus (those two are good for attacking from behind a wall of Sacred Phoenixes), Deflect, Block, Haste enchantment, and Prayer enchantment.  The sooner I get those, the sooner I can fight Fiona and Roland.

I also don't understand why some options are given in the menu, such as whether or not the Sphinx can be visited.  (I rarely visit the Sphinx anyway in this game but it seems a minor point.)  However, my understanding of the map is not very deep so I worry that Woodmelon might know something which I don't, and have reasons which I haven't thought of.  Still, we can leave a version unchanged, and change something back if necessary.

It seems to be part of the plot that only Lord Haart can recruit Tyrus, so I think perhaps there should be a pool of Heroes which any color (or maybe just the human player?) can recruit, but have certain Heroes reserved to each color (including the faction leaders, of course).

Speaking of universities, the Magic University doesn't do much.  Maybe it should offer to improve Power and Knowledge, and teach Secondary Skills which involve magic (except Scholar and Eagle Eye).  Maybe also it could "copy" spells from a Hero's spellbook onto scrolls for a fee, so more secondary Heroes could use Water Walk once the leader learns it.  These aren't major additions, but it seems a waste for that big object to only do one thing.

To implement such changes, it is of course easier just to apply them, rather than to turn them on and off with a menu, both for the scripter and the user, so we need to consider which items need a menu item and which can just be implemented.  I haven't used the trick of dropping troops to let them grow myself, but it seems Woodmelon must have been aware that this could be done, and one person's cheat could be another person's clever strategy.  So that is a case where I see the need for a menu item.  Having it on the menu says, "Okay, we know how you want to use this to make your life easier.  Go ahead if you must - but a good player does not need this."  The same is true of the extra movement and the restriction of AI leader movement.  Both could be considered cheats by a purist.  Menu items for such things allow the purists to play pure and the cheaters to cheat, and everyone can be happy.

Expanding the list of recruitable Heroes will require a menu item (although it will be be a bit of a pain to implement vs. just changing Hero specifications in the Map Editor), because a) Woodmelon must have done it for a reason; and b) it will take away that trick of Maciek's (which might be one of Woodmelon's reasons).

I hope some other people who have played the map will offer their opinions on what changes should be made, if any - although I think the main criterion should be "this is what Woodmelon would have done, if he had the time and money".  (I consider the PoD change to be one such.)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 25, 2011 12:28 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:40, 25 Jul 2011.

I don't think he was aware in 2005 of "leave troops" flaw. My self, when I designed Time of Prophecy I enabled this option because I needed the player to leave one creature in strategical places thus prevent computer of landing. And I was extremely pissed when people reported finishing the game with millions of sorceresses because they used it the other way. And this was in 2009.

The sphinx, there is not much of a mystery. Probably he was out of ideas to fill the 12th selection, because the sphinx gives very minor things, nothing special.

The universities: they are my priority in each game. Hidden skills go up to 12 and then you can't free a slot before a battle (you can but before the battle the slot is no more free). So the only way to learn the missing skills are the universities or endless reloads at battle academy. It would be interesting to visit them more than once to check if any new. There is already an object which copy a spell from scroll to magic book, at 53/67.

The restriction of leaders movement can not be considered as cheat, because it is a necessary technical problem: I already tried without, and they all died to neutrals in less than one month, making the game hardly winnable.

For the PODs I think none will object against.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 25, 2011 01:37 AM

Errata:  in my last post I said "Tyrus can only be recruited by Red" - actually it is Tyris, and she can be recruited by Red, Blue, and Green already.

My proposal on expanding Heroes would be to add an option to make the following recruitable by the human player:  Sir Mullich, Caitlin, Jenova, Kyree, Rissa, Aine, Octavia, Calid, Clavius, Nagash, Damacon, Sephinroth, Saurug, Jabarkas, Gelare, and Grindan.  The option could replace the Sphinx option, or be the 12th option in the second menu, which only has 11 options.

The other option could be used to make the University change each month, perhaps only to skills which the Human leader does not already have?  (There is another way which I have used to get all allowed skills, but I won't mention it in case it is considered cheating.)

The current Magic University will only copy scrolls to spellbooks.  I proposed adding the opposite, above - copying spellbook spells to scrolls (for a large fee).  This would allow Town Portal and Water Walk to be promulgated to secondary Heroes who don't have the Wisdom to learn them - a minor advantage, but the current Magic University seems worthless to me.  (At the same time I get the Scholar ability, I also get Water Walk in my spellbook, so I see no need for copying scrolls to a spellbook.)

Oh, and Commander artifacts as battle bonuses, replacing the "AI Leaders can learn all spells" option.  Also, why not have the Artificer be able to convert one Commander artifact into other, so I have a use for all the Bows of Seeking which the Battle Academy offers me, although it has never offered me Mithril Mail?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 25, 2011 02:44 AM

Yes, but there is one hut at 11/107/1 -well hidden btw- which asks for all commander artefacts, I guess Woodmelon wanted it for only Inteus? There is no other way to acquire the pendant of sorcery, at least I did not find one. So maybe the pendant should be eliminated from the list.

I often have a problem with those artefacts sold after a random dice roll, as it always ends in endless reloads. At least, coming from battle may prevent too many reloads at battle academy.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 25, 2011 03:57 AM

I am not completely sure what has been agreed to, so I will write a summary before scripting, but don't have time right now.

At the Artificer I propose that the Commander artifacts be upgradeable in this sequence:  Boots, Bow, Shield, Axe, Mail, Sword, Helm.  That is, the Boots of Haste could be upgraded to the Bow of Seeking, which could be upgraded to the Axe of Smashing, et cetera.  The cost would be 10,000 if not tired, double that if tired.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 25, 2011 06:09 AM

Sounds good but then the boots chance to appear must be greater than others. It is like the armor of wonder, we find several copies of it, then upgrade further.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 25, 2011 10:50 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:04, 25 Jul 2011.

I remember already playing Azrael but did not have problems with. I think several things must be redone, the plot does not make any sense, the game is bugging and the dialogs are confuse. I fight Roland, and after first fight I have no choice but fight a second one. Which would not disturb me much if it did not crash every time. I changed the artefacts and it seems I need the sphere of permanence to avoid the crash. But now, I get a weird message asking me if I want surrender


If I click no, game crashes. The time I realize that I must fly (why?) then I wake up near my town, okay. Then it goes through Tyris/Catherine/Roland without any sense, the same dialogs trigger when one task was completed, after defeating Roland finally, he still says that Catherine is too strong etc etc. Some order must be done in this mess. I will look into their scripts order and propose something. If the player must fly, then I see no reason to ask him if he wants to, at least we can remove the "cancel" and let only approval. His armies should really look invincible, all I see is that I can slaughter them all in one turn, and still need to escape? He has crap.

I am also unable to get the CHI from the genie. I helped him and the script says "visit next week on 7th day". Nada, is gone. (what does the player who is unable to read ERM, how he can know?)

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Era II mods and utilities

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