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| Thread: Rules vs. Skill |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2002 06:28 PM |
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Rules vs. Skill
I read a ton of posts where some players make statements like " rules are only made by players that lack skill" and "players that dont know how to defned this tactics" and similar statements.
is it really that way ? what do you think ?
in my opinions its nonsense.
i played a lot players this and in former seasons. some wanted no rules, some wanted a list of 24 rules.
i really dont think most players that make rules do it to cover a lack of skill. most " rulers" i know just do it because they enjoy the game this way more.
(Its like a great meal : it really tastes good and u eat it but u would like it more without these damn tomatoes  ).
i totally understand players that like the game how it is . but be true : the "no rule" players aren't more or less skilled than "rulers".
specially the hardcore no rulers : u really think the members of the "no rules circle" are the better homm players ?
Rulerschaaf
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 30, 2002 07:19 PM |
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Rules..
The first rule everyone makes when creating a game is.. how many players should be in it and what map should be played. That is rules, and no rules would mean you wouldn´t be able to create a game from the chaos (order?).
Then other rules can further define the type of game, like no 4th, no hit&run, or no win for you if you win. Some ppl want one type of game, some people want another.
But, rules shift the balance, and most ppl that want rules add the side effect of making their game better, but they might not be aware of that.
Rules corrupt, and the less rules we have, the purer the game. But rules can be fun to.
=)
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted January 30, 2002 07:41 PM |
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Probably the "no rulez" crowd is better at playing no rules games and the "rulez" bunch is better at playing games with rules.
It's a shame we cant have you guys play each other to find out but... what the hell would the rules be??
I think the "rulez" people like to play in a more controlled gaming environment. To them, "tricks" do not belong in a Heroes game.
The "no rulez" players prefer a more wild and wooly game using every possible method of winning. But even these guys wont summon their opponents boats on HG (usually)
It has to be difficult for these two groups to co-exist!
ToH will not support rules of any kind. It's easy to understand why. Many times the 2 players themselves dont understand what the hell they have agreed to, How would ToH fairly administer the rules? No way.
The "no rulez" guys are the kind of people who, win or lose, want no crying and complaining on either side after the game. GAME OVER! I kind of like this play style myself, nothing worse than some loser complaining for months that you had Deemer teach your main hero "Meteor Shower" even tho you promised "No 4th". (I still dont understand what was wrong with that)!!?? Even the rulez guys laugh about some of the rules listed in Zone rooms.
The problem with rules is that too many rules turn the game into something checkers-like and you will notice that almost no one plays checkers anymore.
I have always been a "no rulez" advocate but I think some rules are required in any game. Maybe the unwritten rules of Fair Play, Politeness and Sportsmanship are required but, as always, unenforceable. I guess the only solution is: Dont play the Bastard if it was no fun last time.
If the mapmaker will fix the problems on some of the maps they would again become excellent! After all... summoning your opponents boat on some maps is excellent play, not cheating!
It's a shame tho....
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2002 08:26 PM |
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Rules are for fun, you are right.
I have no fun in being kicked by 3000 Skellis, so I want 'No L1 in Endfight' Rule in a Clangame.
I think Ancients are to good, so let us play under a 'Non Upgrade Rule'
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2002 08:40 PM |
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I think Motorshaaf is completely right here. Rules don't really make a difference in the skill of players. I am sure most players that make up the rules have an idea how to counter them, depending on the skill of the player of course.
Rules start coming in when people play the map sooooo much that the outcome is always affected by minor differences. Such as what hero you get, castle build, arts, etc etc. So people lose and then thinking that they played better but lost to luck start making up rules. No this no that, no 4th no diplo no hit and run, etc etc. They know perfectly well why they make up the rule, so it's not lack of skill that is the problem.
I personally don't care what rules people suggest, whatever they really want. You should be able to play with any set of rules to show off some skill.
Enough of that though before this turns into another hit and run thread. I would like to suggest people some fun rules that I have tried over the years and they don't limit and make the game more enjoyable and maybe some more people could add some fun and weird rules they have used, not the same old BS.
Try playing no arts at all allowed or only native castle heroes allowed. That way it's kinda like the hero game, but you get 1 extra every week and you start with 2.
I found the no artifact games to be really fun too cause the heroes stats are so low when you meet, fully natural. I guess the barbarians dominate in that case.
Anyway just wanted to see some people's opinions. Laterz
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 30, 2002 11:44 PM |
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Well you can never test your skills completely when there are rules, that prevent you from certain things.
Rules Vs skills ha there is no skills if there are rules put into play.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2002 12:44 AM |
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Actualy I'd say that often playing with rules can increase the amount of skill in the game, since they force you to play differently then you otherwise would. A player who can win the game under a wide variety of different situations and different circumstances has more skill then one who can only win when he is allowed to play a certain way.
I sometimes make or agree to rules just because they add variety to the game. If there are no lvl 4 spell heroes, then I get to try out different heroes then I otherwise would pick. This can allows to play differently then I otherwise would and use different strategies.
Certainly many of you may remember the days of the master gremlin rush. Almost everyone created rules back then. And I don't think anybody would say they did that due to lack of skill.
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted January 31, 2002 02:28 AM |
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Very good post Motor. Of course the preference one way or another means nothing about a players experience or skill. It is a preference, but creates a division because those from both camps want to play each other and they cannot agree on the rules (as someone mentioned this is a paradox). In H4 I will be on a campaign to find maps that are tournament quality, and by that will require few if any rules. Hopefully more of us will be able to agree and the divisive posts will be fewer.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 31, 2002 02:46 AM |
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Quote:
Actualy I'd say that often playing with rules can increase the amount of skill in the game, since they force you to play differently then you otherwise would. A player who can win the game under a wide variety of different situations and different circumstances has more skill then one who can only win when he is allowed to play a certain way.
I sometimes make or agree to rules just because they add variety to the game. If there are no lvl 4 spell heroes, then I get to try out different heroes then I otherwise would pick. This can allows to play differently then I otherwise would and use different strategies.
Certainly many of you may remember the days of the master gremlin rush. Almost everyone created rules back then. And I don't think anybody would say they did that due to lack of skill.
I think that the more rules you use the less skill you get to use.
I mean I hate it myself but if a person wants to hit & run well thats a skill, if they want Somyr & another scout with scholar & your main hero can learn that skill, well thats a skill etc.
Numerous skills to use in combat but if you put in the no rules then you only get limited skills.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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The_Prophet
Adventuring Hero
Protector of Virgin Goats
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posted January 31, 2002 03:03 AM |
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The only rule I ever agree to is limiting the number of heroes to two or three to make each player's turn a little shorter. Other than that I consider adding rules to take away from a great game that has nothing wrong with it the way it is. Custon rules are a lot like custom controller settings, or really custon anything: It's what suits the person who made them up. I'd much rather play by a standard set of rules than have some Barbarian telling me I can't build a high-level guild in my Tower.
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An army of foes die the same as a single enemy, it's just more fun killing them.
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted January 31, 2002 07:13 AM |
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Rules are rules.
Maps are maps.
Play what you like.
Don't play what you don't like.
Skill? Any GOOD player could beat me, no matter what rules we did or didn't have, so rules don't show skill. No rules don't show skill. Playing well shows skill.
Of course, there ARE two kinds of rule makers. Those who want an edge, and those who want a "fun" game. I think there are more of the latter.
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted January 31, 2002 10:38 AM |
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well, I agree with Aculias that you use a wider variety of skills with less rules ...
HOWEVER ... how much skill is required in H&R?
how much skill is required for diplomacy?
how much skill is required for using that level 4 hero / logistics hero?
VERY little.
and by the way, I believe demonology (using pit lords) and necromancy are not very easy skills to perfect. 
lol, Marius kicks @$$
therefore, I believe there is NO significant connection between rules / skill.
but I DO believe there is a good amount of skill involved in the ability of playing an unknown map vs. a memorized one. (which is one reason I like to play maps I have not played before)
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26) 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 31, 2002 03:10 PM |
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This is reply to Promethius:
Hopefully Pro 3do fixed all these issues in creating a better Heroes game in H4.
In H3 I dont believe they thought the game out in to much depth. There is allot of loose ends and things in H3 that causes the need for some of these rules to balance the game out. I do agree there are alot of neat kewl tactics in this game, BUT to often they become to overwhelming and SOMETIMES there is NOTHING that can be done to counter it. SO you fall victim, to the shortcomings of the game, not the skill of your opponent.
But from reading all about H4 I think 3do has solved alot of the issues, buy having an infinite differnet possibilities to counter all aspects of the game.
For example maybe I am wrong but I think I read somewhere that you will only beable to higher native heroes from the towns. i.e. if your Dungeon you cannot hire Soly from your town. That is its self solves alot. So hopefully H4 will just be an all arround better thought out game so we wont need rules
Jinxer
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2002 06:16 PM |
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Well a better rule, and perhaps more logical would be if it was possible to hire heroes from other towns, they just had a demoralizing effect on ur creatures.
Like Efreeti Sultans wouldnt be to happy to be lead by Soly, who is a genie, considering its their arch enemy in the game
Well just my 2 cents anyways.
Defreni
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2002 07:08 PM |
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Well with more rules you tend to get better at playing a ruleless game. When you play with rules you tend to get better at playing via the rules your using.
Personaly I think somebody who can only play using one method has less skill then somebody who can play well regardless of rules or no rules.
During the days of the master gremlin rushes, I'd say the players who didn't make rules were the ones with less skill, since they only took advantage of one small aspect of the game in order to win. They never even knew how to play with alot of the other game elements.
Similarly I'd say that a player who can only win if he's allowed to play Solmyr or a similar hero has much less skill then a player who can win with Solmyr, but who can also win in a game where Solmyr is not allowed.
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The_Prophet
Adventuring Hero
Protector of Virgin Goats
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posted February 02, 2002 04:43 AM |
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Ha
You can take away my Solmyr, and I'll just make your troops kill each other with Astral.
Take away Kyrre, and Dessa will get the job done just as well.
Let's just remove all the heroes!
Anyone who can play and win with ALL heroes banned is truly a skillful player. ;D
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An army of foes die the same as a single enemy, it's just more fun killing them.
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Fantusta
Known Hero
who wishes he was high
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posted February 02, 2002 04:56 AM |
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Going back to Craig's first post... i think that sums up my opinion quite well, if you usually play with rules, you'll be better with them, same if you don't. What's really skillful is being able to handle both.
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You're unique, just like everyone else. I'm just better.
I'm challenging preconcieved notions you haven't even thought up yet!
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Anfi
Known Hero
Computer Puppet
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posted February 02, 2002 08:09 AM |
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I think that actually some of the rule makers DO make up rules to make up for their lack of skill.
People make no map rules to make up for maps they always lose on, people say no soly, thant etc because they rarely or never beat this hero, they cant seem to stop them -- ever.
But i think sometimes rules are fun, not for limiting game play, like saying you cant do this or that, not to limit the player, but make it interesting, for instance...i play pool occasionally, 8 ball, when me and my friend are both down to the 8, we dont straight shoot it in, we play where we have to bank the que or the 8 and make it for it to count. stuff like just saying...you can never hire inferno heroes, just for fun. uhh anyway, now that you're all asleep... see ya
anfi
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"I Don't Cheat, I Just Interview Incase The Relationship Doesn't Work Out."
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Sisyphus
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 02, 2002 09:18 AM |
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted February 02, 2002 10:49 AM |
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Someone said this earlier but as I have nothing cool to say I'll repeat it.
A rule that eliminates a skill decreases overall skill in the game.
A rule that eliminates a random draw option like 'No 4th level hero' handicaps the 'lucky' player as they have one less choice now.
Honestly on closed maps armor specialist are by far the most powerful but noone makes a rule vs them.
I think a good rule would be no might heroes with shackles or recanters.
After all why would I want to waste 4 hours just to lose to something I have no chance of beating.
I am only kidding. I hate all rules. =)
And for the record I think many of the rule players are very skilled. And I also think they could adapt to the things they rule out if they gave themselves that chance.
-Mocara
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