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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: New resource system and game mechanics - discussion
Thread: New resource system and game mechanics - discussion
Ankhes
Ankhes


Hired Hero
posted August 22, 2010 12:36 AM

New resource system and game mechanics - discussion

So I would like to post my idea about resources and competitive gaming and if you are not interested you can skip this LONG post. Sorry for my English in advance but I hope you can understand what I wanted to say.

At first when I saw that there would be only one resource I couldn't figure it out how could it make the game more strategic and competitive  because with the typical homm economy it would be like t3 structure cost 5 crystals t4 10 crystals t5 15 t6 20 and t7 30? It would lead to rather some weird races who gather 20 crystals first and it would be some breakthrough moments instead of interesting constant battles for crystals.

What I would love to see is some more encouragement to be offensive and here I think that it would be great not to make buildings super expensive when it comes to the crystals(but still differences between costs like building for best t4 unit would be cheaper) but make the later tier units cost a lot of crystals so for example t5 would cost x gold +crystal, t6 would cost x gold + 2 crystals and t7 x gold + 4 crystals) so it won't be enough to just tech and then you can camp but if u were to cut off from more than ur one crystal mine u would not be able to build as much units as ur opponent. It might lead to some interesting different openings dependable on maps, opponent race and scout - for example you scout your opponent has just made fast t5(he spent a lot of money and lost a lot of units to get crystal mine fast so instead of teching for example upgrade your t4 and push fast before he can build enough army.

So controlling map would be much more important because I think that in Homm series overall being agressive is not important that much because you can't really put enough pressure and controlling mines is not that important because once you build up your castle you don't rly need them(even the resources you need for t7 units are easily accessible via resource silo). Moreover the defending forces has huge edge - it is defending in the castle and even if not he can supply his army immediately after the population with additional resources. Even if you try to harass and weaken enemy army by attacking it and then running away to come with stronger forces its not gonna rly work because when you run you don't gain experience for battle(I think it should be changed) and you can't buy more forces than the population let you(here it might be interesting to add for example merc camp which would allow you to buy more units than population - but the units there would cost 1.5-2x the original cost so it would allow player who has advantage(controlling map, mines etc) could use it to make bigger army at really high price. Now he is limited to the population and it is really hard to beat the player who has basically the same army strength and is defending in his own castle).

When it comes to scout I think it is really cool that you can tell how advanced tech your opponent has but at the same time without fog of war it is kinda weird that once you scout opponent you know exactly what he is doing so I would like to see fog of war ONLY on castles so you will have to scout from time to time to see what your opponent is up to.

I don't really think these changes would affect players who likes to play large (I like to play them as well with friends and AI sometimes) large armies because I think it is even almost IMPOSSIBLE to force constant fight over resources on them because distance between players is too big to let anybody effectively stop your economy nad there would be probably enough crystal mines for everyone.

I would also love to see the possibilty to modify the game we want to play (kinda like in wog there were a lot of possibilities to modify mechanics) - so if we want we can turn off mercenary camps and creatures costing crystals(the way I said I would like to see), if we want we can remove level cap, if we want we can neglect randomization then there would be no weeks of archangel +5, pile of gold would give static average number like 700g, treasure chest static 1500g/1000xp and so on.

What do you guys think?
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 22, 2010 01:07 AM

Quote:
What I would love to see is some more encouragement to be offensive and here I think that it would be great not to make buildings super expensive when it comes to the crystals(but still differences between costs like building for best t4 unit would be cheaper) but make the later tier units cost a lot of crystals so for example t5 would cost x gold +crystal, t6 would cost x gold + 2 crystals and t7 x gold + 4 crystals) so it won't be enough to just tech and then you can camp but if u were to cut off from more than ur one crystal mine u would not be able to build as much units as ur opponent. It might lead to some interesting different openings dependable on maps, opponent race and scout - for example you scout your opponent has just made fast t5(he spent a lot of money and lost a lot of units to get crystal mine fast so instead of teching for example upgrade your t4 and push fast before he can build enough army.
Hey, this is actually an interesting idea, and it makes crystal more useful in the end-game.

Quote:
So controlling map would be much more important because I think that in Homm series overall being agressive is not important that much because you can't really put enough pressure and controlling mines is not that important because once you build up your castle you don't rly need them(even the resources you need for t7 units are easily accessible via resource silo). Moreover the defending forces has huge edge - it is defending in the castle and even if not he can supply his army immediately after the population with additional resources. Even if you try to harass and weaken enemy army by attacking it and then running away to come with stronger forces its not gonna rly work because when you run you don't gain experience for battle(I think it should be changed) and you can't buy more forces than the population let you(here it might be interesting to add for example merc camp which would allow you to buy more units than population - but the units there would cost 1.5-2x the original cost so it would allow player who has advantage(controlling map, mines etc) could use it to make bigger army at really high price. Now he is limited to the population and it is really hard to beat the player who has basically the same army strength and is defending in his own castle).
Yeah, that's a point, although the issue is that by that point (at least in H3), Turrets did pittance, the defender couldn't use a Ballista.

Quote:
When it comes to scout I think it is really cool that you can tell how advanced tech your opponent has but at the same time without fog of war it is kinda weird that once you scout opponent you know exactly what he is doing so I would like to see fog of war ONLY on castles so you will have to scout from time to time to see what your opponent is up to.
I'd prefer to see it on everything you don't have a hero or town, so you'd have to be constantly scouting to ensure that the enemy wasn't slipping into your territory.

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 22, 2010 01:19 AM

A lot of those changes can already be made through the map editor.

You can make players play more aggressively and compete for resources by just reducing the number of mines and random resources on the map.

There are already external dwellings that lets you recruit troops, they just don't cost more than regular troops.

You can edit random resources so that it's not random.

Also, you forgot that one of the main reasons why you can't fight over resources is that you need heroes to lead your armies. It's not like other strategy games where if you lose an attack force, you've at least weakened your opponent. In heroes, if you lose an army, you're making you opponent stronger by giving their hero experience and possibly artifacts.

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Ankhes
Ankhes


Hired Hero
posted August 22, 2010 01:48 AM

Quote:
A lot of those changes can already be made through the map editor.

You can make players play more aggressively and compete for resources by just reducing the number of mines and random resources on the map.

There are already external dwellings that lets you recruit troops, they just don't cost more than regular troops.

You can edit random resources so that it's not random.

Also, you forgot that one of the main reasons why you can't fight over resources is that you need heroes to lead your armies. It's not like other strategy games where if you lose an attack force, you've at least weakened your opponent. In heroes, if you lose an army, you're making you opponent stronger by giving their hero experience and possibly artifacts.


I know it can be made via editor but it takes a lot of work to rebalance all the maps(I did in homm3 when playing some 1v1 matches vs my friend) and I think it can be done by Black Hole quite easily. And as you said these random resources can be crucial because in previous heroes games if you were in need of mercury and sulfur and you keep finding gems and crystals it makes game a bit randomized(not necessary bad thing but as I said it might be cool to have choice).

Some maps has them but mostly for low level units and opponent has them as well, even if you steal them its not like not having these additional 8 golems will make that big of a difference in big fight. And if one of the players captured most mines and has big income he might afford buying some more creatures for twice their cost to make use of his economy advantage.

I didn't forget about giving opponent eperience, I actually stated that I would like to see hero who ran away to gain experience for units he killed so it won't be THAT big of a deal since he will level up after the fight as well which is crucial and if he thought it is worthwile to try and mess up economy by capturing some mines and eventually being attacked by superior army then why not.
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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 22, 2010 02:41 AM
Edited by vicheron at 12:37, 22 Aug 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
A lot of those changes can already be made through the map editor.

You can make players play more aggressively and compete for resources by just reducing the number of mines and random resources on the map.

There are already external dwellings that lets you recruit troops, they just don't cost more than regular troops.

You can edit random resources so that it's not random.

Also, you forgot that one of the main reasons why you can't fight over resources is that you need heroes to lead your armies. It's not like other strategy games where if you lose an attack force, you've at least weakened your opponent. In heroes, if you lose an army, you're making you opponent stronger by giving their hero experience and possibly artifacts.


I know it can be made via editor but it takes a lot of work to rebalance all the maps(I did in homm3 when playing some 1v1 matches vs my friend) and I think it can be done by Black Hole quite easily. And as you said these random resources can be crucial because in previous heroes games if you were in need of mercury and sulfur and you keep finding gems and crystals it makes game a bit randomized(not necessary bad thing but as I said it might be cool to have choice).

Some maps has them but mostly for low level units and opponent has them as well, even if you steal them its not like not having these additional 8 golems will make that big of a difference in big fight. And if one of the players captured most mines and has big income he might afford buying some more creatures for twice their cost to make use of his economy advantage.

I didn't forget about giving opponent eperience, I actually stated that I would like to see hero who ran away to gain experience for units he killed so it won't be THAT big of a deal since he will level up after the fight as well which is crucial and if he thought it is worthwile to try and mess up economy by capturing some mines and eventually being attacked by superior army then why not.


Why would you need to rebalance every map? You just need to change the maps you want to play and it would take you maybe 5 to 10 minutes.

As for players being able to buy out their dwellings, there are very few maps that have enough mines for that. For most factions, you would need a capitol in order to buy every creature a town produces. That means if you have another town, you would need at least two gold mines to buy every creature in both your capitol and the second town. If you have three towns, you would need at least four gold mines to buy every creature in both your capitol and the two other towns. In most maps, there's only one gold mine for every town on the map. That means you'll be need least an extra 7,000 gold per week to buy out every creature a fully built town generates. That's not even taking into consideration all the gold and resources you have to spend to build up those towns.

As for heroes gaining experience even when retreating, that will make the game way too easy to exploit. Every Heroes game has had the cheap tactic of sending a magic hero with a very fast creature or 7 stacks of 1 creature, throwing down a couple of fireballs or chain lightnings and then just run away. Giving heroes who retreat would only encourage that kind of cheap tactic.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 22, 2010 11:17 AM

What about having fewer mines, but including the 'deposits' from H4 which allow you to build mines on them?

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 22, 2010 12:44 PM

Instead of scrapping the old resource system, they should build on it and keep adding new uses for the rare resources. That's they've done in every game.

In Heroes 1, rare resources were only used to build towns and recruit high level creatures.

Heroes 2 introduced trading posts where you could trade one resource for another or for gold.

Heroes 3 introduced artifact merchants where you could trade resources for artifacts.

Heroes 4: Winds of War introduced spell shops where you could buy spells with rare resources.

Heroes 5 added creature artifacts for Wizards that let you make mini-artifacts for Academy creatures.

Heroes 5: Hammers of Fate added Rune Magic that let Dwarven creatures get buffs during battle by spending rare resources.

They can just keep building on those ideas. They could add the ability to craft your own artifacts using rare resources. They can let you spend rare resources on war machines to enchant them and make them more powerful. They can allow you to spend rare resources to strengthen your castle's defenses. They could allow you to expend rare resources to get temporary production boosts in dwellings. They could allow you to spend rare resources at the mage guild to research spells. They could bring back altars and let your heroes sacrifice rare resources for blessings from the dragon gods. There's so much they can do to add more strategic depth in how players spend rare resources.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 22, 2010 05:18 PM

Quote:
Instead of scrapping the old resource system, they should build on it and keep adding new uses for the rare resources. That's they've done in every game.

In Heroes 1, rare resources were only used to build towns and recruit high level creatures.

Heroes 2 introduced trading posts where you could trade one resource for another or for gold.

Heroes 3 introduced artifact merchants where you could trade resources for artifacts.

Heroes 4: Winds of War introduced spell shops where you could buy spells with rare resources.

Heroes 5 added creature artifacts for Wizards that let you make mini-artifacts for Academy creatures.

Heroes 5: Hammers of Fate added Rune Magic that let Dwarven creatures get buffs during battle by spending rare resources.

They can just keep building on those ideas. They could add the ability to craft your own artifacts using rare resources. They can let you spend rare resources on war machines to enchant them and make them more powerful. They can allow you to spend rare resources to strengthen your castle's defenses. They could allow you to expend rare resources to get temporary production boosts in dwellings. They could allow you to spend rare resources at the mage guild to research spells. They could bring back altars and let your heroes sacrifice rare resources for blessings from the dragon gods. There's so much they can do to add more strategic depth in how players spend rare resources.


I 100 % support this.

I don't really buy the thing with having people fighting harder for the ressources - that WILL end up being a question about map balancing rather than ressource numbers. Sure, we might not be able to change campaign maps, but it's not campaigns that ensure longevity of the game.

I think it's sad that the tactical element of having to match your building strategy to available ressources is gone - or contrarily, you might have to gain acces to a specific ressource if you really wanted one specific building. Now it's all just going to be one ressource and nothing else.

I also think the original poster had an excellent point in having more ressource demands in recruiting units to ensure lasting ressource demands - but again, that could be accomplished fine with multi-ressources also.
____________
What will happen now?

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serptico
serptico


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2010 07:25 PM

Focal points

HOw is focal points goin' to work? It will cover a few mines so instead of capturin those mines you will capture what exactly? I though your castles did that job.

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Snatch
Snatch


Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
posted August 24, 2010 08:46 PM

I think not in all areas will be castles.

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serptico
serptico


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2010 09:01 PM

Quote:
I think not in all areas will be castles.


What about Castles? I heard they also have an area of affect for mines?

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 24, 2010 09:10 PM
Edited by Nelgirith at 21:11, 24 Aug 2010.

From what I understood :

1. Each mine will be linked to one (and only one) focus point (castle or fort). A focus point can have several mines attached to it

2. You still capture mines the same way as usual - killing mobs, flagging it etc... When you capture the mine, it will be linked to the focus point and thus it will be "protected"

3. If you don't own the focus point to which the mine is linked, the mine won't be "protected" and can be captured the normal way by an opponent

4. You can put units to defend a fort and protect your mines even more. Someone wanting to flag your mines will have to flag the focus point. If you capture a focus point, you will automatically flag all the flagged mines linked to it. A mine that wasn't flagged will remain unflagged.

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serptico
serptico


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2010 09:46 PM

Quote:
From what I understood :

1. Each mine will be linked to one (and only one) focus point (castle or fort). A focus point can have several mines attached to it

2. You still capture mines the same way as usual - killing mobs, flagging it etc... When you capture the mine, it will be linked to the focus point and thus it will be "protected"

3. If you don't own the focus point to which the mine is linked, the mine won't be "protected" and can be captured the normal way by an opponent

4. You can put units to defend a fort and protect your mines even more. Someone wanting to flag your mines will have to flag the focus point. If you capture a focus point, you will automatically flag all the flagged mines linked to it. A mine that wasn't flagged will remain unflagged.


so castles act the same way as focus points? and a mine under area of affect can be captured and reap the benefits as long as the Hero stays and guards the mine?

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 24, 2010 11:13 PM

Quote:
so castles act the same way as focus points? and a mine under area of affect can be captured and reap the benefits as long as the Hero stays and guards the mine?


Castle wasn't actually confirmed, but I suppose it will.

And yes, if you don't capture the focus, you can only "occupy" a mine by letting a hero on it.

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 25, 2010 09:54 AM

If that's what they want to do then they should just adopt the border system in games like Kohan, Disciples, and Rise of Nations/Legends.

They can add friendly territory bonuses and enemy territory penalties, as well as various ways to expand your territory.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 25, 2010 04:17 PM

Quote:
From what I understood :

1. Each mine will be linked to one (and only one) focus point (castle or fort). A focus point can have several mines attached to it

2. You still capture mines the same way as usual - killing mobs, flagging it etc... When you capture the mine, it will be linked to the focus point and thus it will be "protected"

3. If you don't own the focus point to which the mine is linked, the mine won't be "protected" and can be captured the normal way by an opponent

4. You can put units to defend a fort and protect your mines even more. Someone wanting to flag your mines will have to flag the focus point. If you capture a focus point, you will automatically flag all the flagged mines linked to it. A mine that wasn't flagged will remain unflagged.
I think you got everything right except #1, because the way I understood it, castles only have a certain radius of control, and anything beyond that is still fair game.

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