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| Thread: What is the WORST decision in Heroes developing history? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 10:20 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:37, 10 Nov 2010.
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5) Making most of the factions capable of only one strategical and tactical behaviour - HoMM V;
That is only true in really early or really late battles.
Well, I don't think Inferno can play defensively, Dungeon to rely on its creatures and not on the spell-casting abilities of the hero, Necropolis to stop harvesting Skeletons/undead (TotE) and so on. Some minor variegations are possible, but too serious departure from the perfect template is usually suicidal.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 10, 2010 10:26 AM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 10:40, 10 Nov 2010.
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On the other hand, was it ever different before HoMMV?
My recent foray down memory lane to re-experience the wondrous HoMMIII left me with the impression that it really was just rose tinted glasses on my part.
There most factions played almost the same, less tactical diversity 8 factions in HoMMIII then in 3 factions from HoMMV which at least all had a different core mechanic.
Zeno, what you're saying is that it had more tactical variety because it had less?
True, you had different tactical options within the factions themselves, but the factions themselves were hardly different at all.
Standardized mechanics across all factions don't add diversity, it takes it away.
HoMMV went to far the other way, leaving to little in common, but at least we had 8 play styles, one per faction, instead of the long list carbon copies found in HoMMIII.
Looks like HoMMVI is going to strike a balance, different core mechanics per factions but common elements across all of them.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 10:33 AM |
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On the other hand, was it ever different before HoMMV?
Is that a rethorical question? Of course it was, simply because each faction had one Might and one Magic hero and the universal spell system allowed much more universal tactics. It was the hero development and creatures in each faction and their abilities that made the difference.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 10:40 AM |
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First of all, hero development was done better in H5 - the skill wheel gave a lot of opportunities for different builds (if you cared to epxlore them that is). Secondly H5 had an abundance of creature abilities in comparison with H3 (especially in ToTE), just check the AoH section if you don't believe me.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 10:47 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:48, 10 Nov 2010.
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First of all, hero development was done better in H5 - the skill wheel gave a lot of opportunities for different builds (if you cared to epxlore them that is). Secondly H5 had an abundance of creature abilities in comparison with H3 (especially in ToTE), just check the AoH section if you don't believe me.
I think I have played HoMM V and looked at the manuals/skill wheels enough, thank you.  And you are trying to twist what I am saying. HoMM V may have had many options for hero development, but each particular hero had access to only about half of them and a half of this half was useful. Oops, they are not that many now! Two magic schools per faction, one of which clearly dominating over the other in terms of efficiency, many skills useful only to certain factions or completely useless and so on. All right, great diversity! 
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 10:55 AM |
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Every hero had access to most of the skills, excluding a few, like the +1 Speed perk for Haven - done mostly for balancing. WHen I say it I also mean that every hero could learn any magic school (some were more or less likely) and get the spells for it from map objects, other towns, artifacts or through Arcane Intuition. Even if you didn't want to twist the hero build and stick to the obvious path it was still more interesting than sticking to Earth/Air Magic at all times
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 11:03 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:05, 10 Nov 2010.
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Every hero had access to most of the skills, excluding a few, like the +1 Speed perk for Haven - done mostly for balancing. WHen I say it I also mean that every hero could learn any magic school (some were more or less likely) and get the spells for it from map objects, other towns, artifacts or through Arcane Intuition. Even if you didn't want to twist the hero build and stick to the obvious path it was still more interesting than sticking to Earth/Air Magic at all times
The majority of the sub-skills became accessible to all the heroes with TotE and even then they remained useful only to particular heroes - the primary secondary skills (Light, Dark, Destructive, Summoning Magic, Enlightment, Attack, Defense, Sorcery, etc.) remained restricted to certain factions each. And... every magic school accessible to every faction? With insignificant chance to learn more than the primary two (Academy excluded)? Without the corresponding spells in the Mage guild? With limited casting potential most of the time (imagine Knight using Destructive spells)?
In HoMM III the Earth and Air schools were better choices than the Fire and Water schools, but every hero could learn powerful Fire and Water Magic spells even without specilizing at them. So...
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 11:09 AM |
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Edited by veco at 11:14, 10 Nov 2010.
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(imagine Knight using Destructive spells)?
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Oh man, that brings memories! You should check this thread an dthne this one
Radar The Legendary Armageddon Knight
Anyway where was I?
Ah, it's all subjective I'm biased towards one, you are towards the other, let's just leave it at that.
I could go for some duels right now
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 10, 2010 11:14 AM |
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HoMM V may have had many options for hero development, but each particular hero had access to only about half of them and a half of this half was useful.
HoMM III has loads of useless skills too.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 10, 2010 11:23 AM |
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Outside of witches huts, Knights virtually couldn't get Enlightenment, Sourcery, or Destructive or Summoning Magic, Wizards couldn't get Attack, Defence, Leadership or Logistics, Demon Lords couldn't get Leadership, Enlightenment, Light or Summoning Magic, etc. It's not even like you have Scholars or Universities any more.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 11:23 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:24, 10 Nov 2010.
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Ah, it's all subjective I'm biased towards one, you are towards the other, let's just leave it at that.
Oh well, let it be "subjective" then.
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HoMM III has loads of useless skills too
Yeah, and this has been addressed with the addition of loads of useless skills (and spells) in the next games and claiming that they are more complex and diversified. 
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 10, 2010 01:44 PM |
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Yeah, and this has been addressed with the addition of loads of useless skills (and spells) in the next games and claiming that they are more complex and diversified.
Even with all the useless skills HoMM5 has greater diversity among the factions than HoMM3 (with its own useless skills) does .
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 02:52 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:53, 10 Nov 2010.
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Yeah, and this has been addressed with the addition of loads of useless skills (and spells) in the next games and claiming that they are more complex and diversified.
Even with all the useless skills HoMM5 has greater diversity among the factions than HoMM3 (with its own useless skills) does .
But there are less things which you can do with this greater diversity. That's my point. The factions became somewhat unique, which is good, but each of them was trapped in repetitive pattern, which is not good. Ultimately it is better to have less unique factions which can be developed in many various ways than unique factions which have very few development options. And of course the best scenario is unique factions with many development options, but that's difficult. Let's see if Ubihole are up to the task with MMH:VI.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 10, 2010 02:55 PM |
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Sounds like you were the one trapped in repetitive patterns You should have joined my tournaments back then, lots of creative situations.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 02:59 PM |
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Sounds like you were the one trapped in repetitive patterns You should have joined my tournaments back then, lots of creative situations.
You mean in the tournaments Knights can learn Destructive magic or Inferno can play defensively during the battle?
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 03:05 PM |
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That is thinking outside the box
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 10, 2010 04:49 PM |
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Actually playing defensively with demons was often a good idea.. Power of endurance, gate like crazy(possibly with gating boosters) and then either keep up with mass dark/mass haste or frenzy. Unless the opponent charges you, you can crush him under the weight of superior forces. Ofc after that initial preparation it's the time to go offensive, depends what faction you are trying it against. Definitely not vs dungeon
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 10, 2010 05:07 PM |
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I actually preferred playing Inferno defensively.
Fire off as many summons as possible before doing anything, preferably to block off their shooters, if you can survive a single volley you'll be ready.
Then play keepaway with summoning magic and if you got lucky with some shrines and/or skills, some light.
Dark can be used quite defensively as well.
If you have to charge in immediately, Cerberi and Nightmares can cause quite a lot of damage if you can get them in before anything bad happens to them but with succubi and pit lords providing ranged support, you should be able to soften up the enemy before your gates arrive.
Move up your army from behind the cover of your gated units and whenever possible, wait with your regular units and let your gated ones soak up the counter attacks.
Doesn't strike me as a very offensive tactic, not like Stronghold where I try and rush in ASAP.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 05:25 PM |
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Actually playing defensively with demons was often a good idea.. Power of endurance, gate like crazy(possibly with gating boosters) and then either keep up with mass dark/mass haste or frenzy. Unless the opponent charges you, you can crush him under the weight of superior forces. Ofc after that initial preparation it's the time to go offensive, depends what faction you are trying it against. Definitely not vs dungeon
If I remember correctly, Inferno gained access to Power of Speed in TotE. Can't remember about Power of Endurance. And you are more or less confirming Inferno's perfect template - Dark Spells + support abilities to make the creatures at least somewhat durable + all the possible boosts for Gating, with Fast Gating being the most important. And you just have to charge against the opponent with at least some creatures and give a chance to the gated units to appear, otherwise he charges against you and wipes you out.
But in any case, that's not my point or at least not entirely. Not much space to "think outside the box", see.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 05:34 PM |
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Are we talking about hero development or battlefield tactics? I am refering to the first while you to the latter and nothing will come out of it. Nothing will come out of it anyway so let's just leave it at that.
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