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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 01:45 PM |
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Edited by Lokheit at 13:54, 06 Jan 2011.
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Ok so then 1 skeleton takes the same spots on your pool than 1 ghoul or 1 ghost instead of taking X spots and ghoul taking 1.5*X spots for example. This was one of the things that I really wanted to know since the new system.
I guess this is why the skeletons and goblins have throwable weapons, to give them a role that makes them a useful pick if you pick them instead of the other units. And the reason because there are no peasants as they are too weak to compare. I never liked them, a unit is to fight, not to give you gold, is like wasting a tier that should go to a unit that can last some turns in a siege. I only liked them on the HOMM V pre-nerf installation when you could take 900 peasants and transform them into 900 crossbowmen on the same turn.
Now I'm seeing units like the priestess and the sucubus to be extremely support orientated. If a priestess is just a weak shooter/caster with lesser support skills I would take the crossbowman before them 100%, so they need to offer something really special in comparison (probably healing) in order to pick them instead of wasting the tier pool on offensive units.
They need to be very careful with balancing now. If on the same tier a unit is better than the other options even taking in consideration the different roles and all consume the same, I can see some armies picking always the same unit as core or elite tier instead of dividing it among the 3 units.
EDIT: nice to hear about the sepparate dwelings, it gives you 14 buildings (counting the upgrades) instead of just 6.
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted January 06, 2011 03:28 PM |
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Quote: I think that goblins are given the boomerang to give them advantages when selecting them instead of orcs and harpies. Probably they will still be the weakest of them by far, but shooting and being the special ammo of some units like shamans and cyclops, will force you to select some groups of them.
And refering to that stuff about balancing on tiers, this is the third or the fourth time that I'm going to ask this on this board but I have never got an answer:
Are all the units of a same tier balanced or some of them are more powerfull but takes a higher % of the tier pool than the other option? (for example example: each skeleton takes 10% of tier1, each ghoul 15% and each ghost 25% or are they on the same power level and all take the same % per creature?). Because some comparisons (specially goblins versus orc, even if the goblin serves as special ammo and can shoot) aren't fair to be on the same power level.
As I see the new system I think that each pool Core, Elite, Champion will be given a number lets say 100 for the core, now in the core you have 3 types of units Goblins , Orc (I will use Orc instead of MAULER for this exemplification) and Harpies, and each unit has a power unit for example:
1 for Goblin,
3 for Orc
2 for Harpy
Now when you buy the units 1 goblin consumes 1 power from the pool so forth and so on and buy whichever you want until using up the 100 point given, the difference in choosing would be given buy abilities ore usefulness for given situation and also (not conformed buy my supposition) money, goblins have lower stats and are the cheapest, harpies are close in stats to goblins but have useful ability and flyer also medium to low cost and orc is the most expensive from the lot but has very high stats and abilities.
I don`t think that upgraded abilities would interfere with formula, unless upgrade modifies heavily the units stats and/or gives additional abilities.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 06, 2011 03:34 PM |
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That sounds about right. Although we know nothing of price per unit yet.
But I find it hard to imagine that Goblins if they have lower stats cost the same as Maulers who then have higher stats
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted January 06, 2011 04:26 PM |
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Edited by blizz at 16:32, 06 Jan 2011.
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Quote: Yes, this dwelling sistem can work 2 ways. Ppl will fight with only 3 stacks (1 core, 1 elite, 1 champion), because there are only 1 creature in each tier, wich are mostly useful.
My worst nightmare for now and the biggest issue i have with the new tier system.
I hope i wont have to neglect creatures due to them being unbalanced and redundant. Every creature should be essential for the factions gameplay.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 06, 2011 04:32 PM |
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From what we can safely guess from the artwork and the descriptions I doubt that.
Some might be more usefull than others in situations, but so far the roles seem pretty evenly devided.
Most seem to have archers, skirmisher, caster/support and assault units in multiple tiers.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 05:22 PM |
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Quote: The bad thing is, that there will be probably be one building for recruiting all core units, one building for elite ones and one building for champion (yet worst case scenario is one building for the lot of them). With the magic guilds gone too, with creature dwellings shrinking, we're gonna have the worst Town Screens in the series yet. I don't even dare to imagine how many other classic town buildings have been taken out too.
That makes me wonder about the external creature dwellings now. Will there be one per unit or will there be only three dwellings per faction (core, elite, champion)?
I personally wasn't thrilled when we found out that Nival condensed the Level 4, 5, 6, & 7 units all into one dwelling especially when Heroes 3 had seven dwellings for all the units.
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admira
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 05:26 PM |
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@KingImp: agree, I kinda miss 7 external dwelling, it makes the adventure map so colorful IMHO
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Willis
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 06:11 PM |
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Yeah, this worries me. If each tier has a growth pool that covers all the units in that tier, they are going to have to balance the units really well. If they don't, some units may never get built. I would prefer each creature had its own growth pool. Is there any confirmation about how this works, yet? It has been a while since I read the FAQ's.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 06, 2011 07:30 PM |
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There are two possible problems with such a building plan if it's not balanced properly:
- many situations will be resolved as per the stone-scissor-paper method, which will mean that about 50% of all creatures will be used at any point and the rest 50% will not be "mobilized" for the length of the same game or will be used only if the initial approach to the situation fails and the defeat of the respective main hero is not enough to defeat the player;
- there will be "perfect templates". This is even worse and has to be avoided at any cost. The creatures will have to have well-delinċated strengths and weaknesseses in order to avoid scenarios when one Core or Elite creature is more effective than the other in more situations. Using the beloved StarCraft example, this will be comparing Marines to Firebats - the former are used very often against various forces while the latter are ineffective most of the time, except in a few specific situations when they shine. Making the creatures too different however makes them susceptible to stone-scissor-paper approaches.
I think the best way to avoid all this will be to make all or most of the creatures co-operate on the battlefield and thus become synergically stronger than if they are on their own. I hope the devs have chosen this path.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted January 06, 2011 08:07 PM |
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For all the people that didn't catch it during EvilPs posts of artwork awesomeness.
Quote: http://www.mightandmagic.com/heroes6
Check it out. Now! Lots of info on creature abilities and everything else. A lot of hints to coming factions etc. etc. it's got all you want. NOW GO DAMNIT!!
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 06, 2011 08:29 PM |
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Quote: I think the best way to avoid all this will be to make all or most of the creatures co-operate on the battlefield and thus become synergically stronger than if they are on their own. I hope the devs have chosen this path.
Obviously the pitfall of the new scheme is the same as with the alternative upgrade: That the units will have the same application, only one will be stronger than the other. To avoid this, they would have each tier (Core, Elite) contain units from different groups of the following:
- Offensive
- Deffensive (tank)
- Support (caster or other)
- Ranged
- Flying
Indeed, that seems to be the case for the factions, and thus one would hoe that all unit indeed serve a purpose and avoids ending up as one that is skipped.
Btw. such a scheme would make it even more tricky to implement alternative upgrades in a balanced way.
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What will happen now?
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bludgeon
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 08:37 PM |
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Quote: - Offensive
- Deffensive (tank)
- Support (caster or other)
- Ranged
- Flying
I'd refine it a little:
-offensive & mobile (walking or flying)
-defensive
-ranged (shooter or breeder)
-support (caster usually)
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bludgeon
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 08:51 PM |
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Edited by bludgeon at 21:04, 06 Jan 2011.
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Quote: If you click the units it shows their bios and special ability descriptions
And animation. Fantastic stuff!
Descriptions drop some new names - possibly creatures:
dire wolf (cerber's descr.)
sabretooth tiger (cerber)
naga (ghoul's descr.)
mummy (lich's descr, but this one could simply indicate mummified corpses, not undead creatures)
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Willis
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 08:56 PM |
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Another indication of Naga as the fifth faction from the Ghoul description: "This meat is as tough as ghoul's skin." A famous line from a Naga comic play..."
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evinin
Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
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posted January 06, 2011 09:01 PM |
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Quote: If you click the units it shows their bios and special ability descriptions
Thank you, Elvin, I only looked in the HC threads about artwork and yours (btw the Eel is said to be a neutral, but you have written it as a boss). Anyway, the creatures in the game look much more awesome (mostly the Inferno creatures)
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 06, 2011 09:03 PM |
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For reference purposes, the bosses are neutrals.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Lichking012
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 09:37 PM |
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I really don't get the hate for a rush type strategy. Do I want it to be the ONLY strategy? No, but I think that allowing someone to Rush with 700 goblins at the end of week 3 could be really interesting. That being Said I don't want that to be the ONLY strategy, I would like other strategies that are just as viable.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2011 10:10 PM |
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I had a small hope, that the Haven artworks are not binding proposals... as I can see, I was wrong. The upgraded units are somehow over-decorated. Just look at the marksman's helmet - the falcon statue is just ridiculous
Apart from the baroque-style criticism, I am astonished! I love all the unit abilities - although, I wonder, how some of them work (such as the Juggernaut's taunt)...
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted January 06, 2011 10:19 PM |
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http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/heroes-6/en-GB/news/details.aspx?c=tcm:21-11489&ct=tcm:6-231-32
read at Sandro, Crag Hack and Solimyr.
Do you think they'll be actual heroes or just npc's?
Or maybe, just avaliable in campaign... i think there was an artefact that took sandro's name in H5... His skull, wasn't it?
Maybe the necro girl is going to behead him at sometime...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 06, 2011 10:31 PM |
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I feel like I am betraying myself, but I have to say this.
Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the flavor text with the abilities of the units. Adore it. But will we get to know what they do? Cause some are rather vague.
For instance:
Quote: Diving Assault (Upgrade) : Imperial Griffins have spent many years with their human allies, and have learned the tactical importance of weakening an enemy line in battle. When they take to the sky, they return and strike their opponents at the moment they think the greatest danger has passed.As the great Emperor Connor the 1st once said, "We're never outnumbered, for as long as we have a Griffin with a breast plate who can still fly."
I still have no idea what that does.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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