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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 05, 2011 05:22 PM |
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Also the core creature could be something NON-undead but something that really does have something to do with undead, a giant bat, rat or spider creature for example.
Or maybe they could make Necropolis a blend of some Undead and something other but related to death, perhaps something like Demons or Devils or ... no ... hmm, wait, what does that remind me of ...?
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What will happen now?
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 05, 2011 05:39 PM |
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Why would we want them to copy Guild Wars' creatures? I would rather them come up with their own stuff. Stop posting monsters from other games that you wanna see in HoMM. Draw or if you can't do that, describe something of your own, instead.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 06:29 PM |
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I've got to ask something. I'm really happy that the official site is updated. But there is a problem.
The creature abilities. Their explainations are not specific. Like, in H5 it would say what an ability is in exact words "when this creature does this for X tiles, then there is a %X possibility etc...."
So what I'm asking is this descriptions of abilities final or are they temporary? Won't they be more specific in the game itself?
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Onryo
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 05, 2011 06:30 PM |
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The undead creatures we have seen in the homm-series are mostly diffrent forms of undead humans; skeletons and zombies are dead bodies without spirits, controlled by necromancers. Ghosts are spirits without bodies, controlled by necromancers. Vampires are a totaly diffrent form of undead, that usually don't have anything to do with necromancy at all. Liches are necromancers which have split their souls in two, and sealed one part in a magical device to prevent death. Though their body died, their spirit didn't. Wight/wraith(H5) recembled the grim reaper, which sometimes is described as an avatar of death itself! And so the bone dragon... back to the the empty, dead bodies, but of a dragon instead of humans...
Ok, I know the lich and vampire lore is a little diffrent in Ashan, This is just the general understanding of the undead forms presented in Homm.
Sorry for my bad english...
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 06:53 PM |
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I really like the idea Nightterror mantioned, and the creatures are very interesting, original, and possibly better than the humanoid skeletons...the only thing I dislike about them, and which stops them from being superior to human skeletons (for me) is that they have boring HUMAN skulls...e.g. the skeletal snake would be so much better and more fearsome/cool if it had an actual SNAKE skull 
For me, I associate a creatures' identity with it's head, more than the abdomen (which is still important of course), this is one of the explanations for what I hate about the Lamassu...stupid human face...I died a little inside when I clicked on a thumbnail for the Lamassu, thinking it was an undead Manticore with a LION head, and realised the magnifiscent undead lion/bat/scorpion hybrid had a boring, monotonous, common, generic stupid Elf face. 
I still love H6 so far, and like Necropolis, but this is simply one of the aspects I'd change if I had the choice.
I also hope the Bone Dragon comes back as a Boss or Neutral! 
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The undead creatures we have seen in the homm-series are mostly diffrent forms of undead humans; skeletons and zombies are dead bodies without spirits, controlled by necromancers. Ghosts are spirits without bodies, controlled by necromancers. Vampires are a totaly diffrent form of undead, that usually don't have anything to do with necromancy at all. Liches are necromancers which have split their souls in two, and sealed one part in a magical device to prevent death. Though their body died, their spirit didn't. Wight/wraith(H5) recembled the grim reaper, which sometimes is described as an avatar of death itself! And so the bone dragon... back to the the empty, dead bodies, but of a dragon instead of humans...
Ok, I know the lich and vampire lore is a little diffrent in Ashan, This is just the general understanding of the undead forms presented in Homm.
Sorry for my bad english...
Yes, this is unfortunately true, all Necropolis units have been humanoid in all HOMMs, apart from the Bone Dragon...but now he's gone...  Although I like the Fate Weaver, I'm just saying.
And that shouldn't suggest I don't like the Necro lineup, the only thing I'd modify to break the monotony and mass production exploatation of HUMAN corpses, is replace at least one Necro unit (e.g. Ghoul or Skeleton) with some Werewolf, Bat, Rat, Poisonus Snake, as mentioned in others' posts etc.
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Sorry for my bad English...
Please, don't even say that, your English (and this applies to practically all HC members, to many of whom English is a foreign language) is on the same level, if not more adept, than a common English speaker's. 
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 06:58 PM |
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I really like the idea Nightterror mantioned, and the creatures are very interesting, original, and possibly better than the humanoid skeletons...the only thing I dislike about them, and which stops them from being superior to human skeletons (for me) is that they have boring HUMAN skulls...e.g. the skeletal snake would be so much better and more fearsome/cool if it had an actual SNAKE skull
For me, I associate a creatures' identity with it's head, more than the abdomen (which is still important of course), this is one of the explanations for what I hate about the Lamassu...stupid human face...I died a little inside when I clicked on a thumbnail for the Lamassu, thinking it was an undead Manticore with a LION head, and realised the magnifiscent undead lion/bat/scorpion hybrid had a boring, monotonous, common, generic stupid Elf face.
Well, it's supposed to be a Beastman(woman), so it has to have something human
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 05, 2011 07:08 PM |
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I really like the idea Nightterror mantioned, and the creatures are very interesting, original, and possibly better than the humanoid skeletons...the only thing I dislike about them, and which stops them from being superior to human skeletons (for me) is that they have boring HUMAN skulls...e.g. the skeletal snake would be so much better and more fearsome/cool if it had an actual SNAKE skull
For me, I associate a creatures' identity with it's head, more than the abdomen (which is still important of course), this is one of the explanations for what I hate about the Lamassu...stupid human face...I died a little inside when I clicked on a thumbnail for the Lamassu, thinking it was an undead Manticore with a LION head, and realised the magnifiscent undead lion/bat/scorpion hybrid had a boring, monotonous, common, generic stupid Elf face.
I still love H6 so far, and like Necropolis, but this is simply one of the aspects I'd change if I had the choice.
I also hope the Bone Dragon comes back as a Boss or Neutral!
It looks to me like you have some kind of repulsion against human faces.
Ok then, just so you know, the Lamassu and the Manticore are supposed to have human faces. Although the Manticore's could be a little more demonic since it is a human eating monster, but still it's clearly humanoid face.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 07:14 PM |
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I really like the idea Nightterror mantioned, and the creatures are very interesting, original, and possibly better than the humanoid skeletons...the only thing I dislike about them, and which stops them from being superior to human skeletons (for me) is that they have boring HUMAN skulls...e.g. the skeletal snake would be so much better and more fearsome/cool if it had an actual SNAKE skull
For me, I associate a creatures' identity with it's head, more than the abdomen (which is still important of course), this is one of the explanations for what I hate about the Lamassu...stupid human face...I died a little inside when I clicked on a thumbnail for the Lamassu, thinking it was an undead Manticore with a LION head, and realised the magnifiscent undead lion/bat/scorpion hybrid had a boring, monotonous, common, generic stupid Elf face.
Well, it's supposed to be a Beastman(woman), so it has to have something human
haha, well, there already is one Beastman/woman, the Fate Weaver, besides, according to what is it meant to be a beastman? The description? Am I wrong to think that the description should be modified to suit a creature, not the other way round? I mean, changing a few words in a description that was devised by a developer in 5 minutes is a problem and something to set limitations for a creature, in this case Lamassu? 
On a different thought that is actually a quite logical question, how is a practically disfunctional human head more suited for combat, than a lion one, armed with sharp teeth and generally a more effective weapon, nevermind the better looks?
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It looks to me like you have some kind of repulsion against human faces.
Ok then, just so you know, the Lamassu and the Manticore are supposed to have human faces. Although the Manticore's could be a little more demonic since it is a human eating monster, but still it's clearly humanoid face.
I was just trying to say that OVERUSING HUMAN FACES and HUMANOIDS in a FANTASY GAME is a bit of a waste, and completely unnecessary.
Yes, I heard of that, and even read your previous posts on HC forums regarding strictly identical portrayal of creatures in games, to what they appear in legends/mythologies.
But firstly, legends and mythology aren't undisputable law legislations that have to be followed, nor laws of physics, that state something is such, and nothing else. Secondly, I know it's only right to make creatures that a game like HOMM borrows from myths as similar and faithful to them as possible, but please, a freedom of interpretation is nothing wrong or negative, so modifying some mythical creatures (myths being just legends made up by people anyways) to make them, and hence the game they appear in more interesting, is a good idea.
Thirdly, HOMM, as mentioned loads of times before, can be said to have it's own little mythology, therefore anything can happen there, and seeing that the Manticore had a LION face in HOMM3, what suddenly happened in H6 with the Lamassu? Did a fanatical myth worshipper join Ubisoft as a developer? Because I'm sure the vast majority of HOMM players would rather have a cool quadripedal monster with an equally cool, and suiting animal head, rather than an Elf's
Just my opinion
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Onryo
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 05, 2011 07:15 PM |
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Yes! Manticores shall have human faces! The Homm5 manticore was the best one I've ever seen in a game! Human face with big, powerful jaws (and three rows of teeths) on a lion body w. scorpion tail! Sometimes bat wings too! That's the description of a manticore!
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 05, 2011 07:21 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 19:43, 05 Feb 2011.
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The Fate Weaver is not a Beastman, it's an Avatar of Asha. And the Lamassu can handle itself in combat pretty well, you know. Must be a very OP creature for being elite. Summoning vermin swarm, aura of diseases and whatnot.
The Manticore did not have a lion's face in H3. It had a sort of a demonic, humanoid face with apparent feline characteristics. The Manticore and the Lamassu are two different creatures both in Ashan and actual mythology.
About the Lamassu in H6, they did not follow the legend to the letter. The Lamassu is not supposed to be undead, have leathery wings or have a tail that ends to a sting. However, they decided to keep its human face. Just that. So I don't suppose a fanatical mythology worshipper joined the ranks of Ubi.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 07:43 PM |
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The Fate Weaver is not a Beastman, it's an Avatar of Asha. And the Lamassu can handle itself in combat pretty well, you know. Must be a very OP creature for being elite. Summoning vermin swarm, aura of diseases and whatnot.
I meant physically a beastman, and physically it IS a beastman - half human, half beast body, lore aside. And even with lore, being an Avatar of Asha doesn't stop her from being a Beastman, any creature is something of something, please try to understand me.
Nevertheless, and regardless of any explanations...WHY, seriously why behead a fearsome and cool monster/monstrous animal and latch a generic human face onto its body?
If this tendency continues, beware of H7, with Dragons having Legolas-Elf faces!
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About the Lamassu in H6, they did not follow the legend to the letter. The Lamassu is not supposed to be undead, have leathery wings or have a tail that ends to a sting. However, they decided to keep its human face. Just that. So I don't suppose a fanatical mythology worshipper joined the ranks of Ubi.
If that's the case I am even more surprised, disappointed, frustrated, and consider that decision to be a big big mistake
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 05, 2011 08:24 PM |
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I've got to ask something. I'm really happy that the official site is updated. But there is a problem.
The creature abilities. Their explainations are not specific. Like, in H5 it would say what an ability is in exact words "when this creature does this for X tiles, then there is a %X possibility etc...."
So what I'm asking is this descriptions of abilities final or are they temporary? Won't they be more specific in the game itself?
I'm pretty sure these descriptions are either temporary or just partial. There probably will be full descriptions with numbers and formulas at some point - but I guess they're holding them back because certain things are still is in the testing phase, and numbers can change before final release.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 08:25 PM |
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But I want you two to consider this, as well. Since you like variety in your game, isn't it more extraordinary to have a monster made of an animal body and a human face rather than a monster made of an animal body and its respective animal face? If the Lamassu would have a lion's head, then it would just be an undead winged lion. I think it's more special the way it is now.
Correction, it would be a GREAT WINGED LION, not JUST a winged lion, now it looks to me like an illogical pile of junk.
Extraordinary doesn't equal more interesting. Besides, the Lamassu is an extraordinary undead winged lion, with an extraordinarily ordinary and boring face.
For me, animal, or beast faces are always more interesting, that's why I really like the Rakshasa Raja, Minotaur etc. And I have NOTHING against humanoids, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Humans themselves are all cool, and necessary for the game...but a beast with a HUMAN face? N-O
In other words, humanoid faces only for humanoids, simply.
I don't really want to see a Black Dragon with a smiley, ginger-bearded DWARF face flying about, do you, Kodial?
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I don't really mind the human face of the lamasu, I think its fitting, I was defending the guy that didn't liked it from your vile mythological madness
haha, merci beaucoup  And we all have different opinions, I'm just expressing mine.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 05, 2011 08:30 PM |
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Well, actually... Lamassus are sometimes depicted as having a Dragon's body too, instead of a lion's. And they still have the human face. And unlike Ashan's Lamassus, the mythological ones are always male and always bearded. Given now that a dwarf's face is not any different than that of a human's in modern fantasy at least. Some Lamassus would indeed look like a dragon with a dwarf's face.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 09:08 PM |
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Well, actually... Lamassus are sometimes depicted as having a Dragon's body too, instead of a lion's. And they still have the human face. And unlike Ashan's Lamassus, the mythological ones are always male and always bearded. Given now that a dwarf's face is not any different than that of a human's in modern fantasy at least. Some Lamassus would indeed look like a dragon with a dwarf's face.
haha, freaky
The question was, though, would you consider such a weirdo combination good? I wouldn't.
It depends on the artist and the writer. Go ask Nightterror. She'll tell you how much she hated the idea of having a Kappa in HoMM, and then when they did it, she loved it.
OK. Yes I know, she even created a thread about them
I generally like everything about H6 creatures, apart from the mentioned Lamassu, and...
The rule of having about 2-3 female creatures in ALL factions, which is good, and works out for some, but in others seems artificial and forced. For example, it's great to have a Harpy and the female Centaur in Stronghold, a nice and mysterious female Ghost, and Fate Weaver(though I miss Bone Dragons) in Necropolis, and the Succubus, and Breeder (though I'm talking more humanoid females) in Inferno. But Sanctuary and Haven look forced and untidy. I love Sanctuary entirely, apart from having the Coral Maiden, River Spirit, and Snow Maiden in a row...the Coral Maiden is OK, though appearance and name should be changed to Medusa, Snow Maiden is great, but River Spirit not only makes the female number too big for my taste, it's too similar to the other two. It should simply be called Water Elemental and a Neutral, while that spot in the lineup could be filled with a Flying Manta Ray, Sea Serpent, or my long-desired Levitating Electric Jellyfish Haven, on the other hand, apart from not making any progress in the field of human monotony, made a mistake of putting in a Priestess AND Glory, I have nothing against any of them really, but I'd make one a neutral, and replace with a Warhound, or hey, I think a Pegasus would be nice in Haven too
Also, having NEITHER of the Wyvern, Roc/Thunderbird, or Behemoth in Stronghold is a sin IMO
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DarkOdyn
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 05, 2011 09:50 PM |
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Edited by DarkOdyn at 21:51, 05 Feb 2011.
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Well, actually... Lamassus are sometimes depicted as having a Dragon's body too, instead of a lion's. And they still have the human face. And unlike Ashan's Lamassus, the mythological ones are always male and always bearded. Given now that a dwarf's face is not any different than that of a human's in modern fantasy at least. Some Lamassus would indeed look like a dragon with a dwarf's face.
Lamassus are strange creatures indeed. In Egyptian mythology they are also pictured having a bull's body and a bearded human face with a traditional egyptian hat. But yeah not having any behemoth or roc is strange. Also the sanctuary has a feeling that it is not planned very well. We have similarities between units as SkrentyzMienty said. And the design isn't very promising (maybe they will change it ? Or those screens are not very good). All in all they have some good ideas this time around I wonder how it will unfold.
P.S My first post here. Hi guys been observing this forum for quite a long time. Respect your work here and all the users and thier ideas. Hails to all
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 05, 2011 09:56 PM |
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Welcome to the Forums, DarkOdyn.
Those screens of 'Sanctuary' creatures are leaked. They are low res and a WIP. Don't pay much attention to them now, a lot of it is going to be changed when they will be officially revealed.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted February 05, 2011 10:01 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 05 Feb 2011. |
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I'm going to create a thread to analyze the ratio of female-to-male units in HoMM games, but for now I'll address the question of mythological doctrine versus creative license.
My thesis being that Heroes of Might and Magic, as a fantasy series, has tended toward mythological doctrine and fantasy stereotyping far more than to creative license. That aspect has changed only in the last two games, and the reason it's caused so much controversy on the forums is that it strays from what brought a lot of us to the Heroes series in the first place: the fantasy tropes.
Look at Heroes of Might and Magic. The Sorceress town line-up included elves, and dwarves, and pixies (read: Fairies), and druids, and unicorns, and phoenixes. All of the things that you think of when you think of a fairy tale. The elves are expert archers, the druids live at Stonehenge and wear hooded robes, the unicorns are rightly associated with rainbows, and the fairies have antennae on their heads. Why? We don't know. But that's part of the fantasy trope. Warlock followed a similar route: Gargoyles, Centaurs, Minotaurs, Hydras, Griffins, Dragons. All of the fantasy monsters that parents use to give their children nightmares. The creatures that the heroes of old were sent to slay. Warlocks are the quintessential villains, and their line-up reflects that.
Shall I go on? Knights have peasants, archers, swordsmen, crusaders, and Jousting Fellows. Every medieval archetype is represented, down to the serfs that till the fields and end up being screwed over by their baron because no one thought to give them a proper suit of armor (or weapon, for that matter). Barbarians were given orcs, goblins, wolves, ogres, cyclopes, and trolls. All of the monsters that you always thought were more goofy than scary, the unintelligent rabble that the hero nonetheless must vanquish in order to pass on.
Heroes of Might and Magic 2 followed a similar pattern. The Knight's line-up was identical. So was the Warlock. As was the Barbarian. Sorceress look familiar at all?
The new factions were Necromancer and Wizard. The Necromancer's line-up was Skeleton, Zombie, Mummy, Vampire, Lich, and Bone Dragon. And that, to me, is the quintessential line-up of scary ghost story monsters. Zombies were a little bit out of place (as they've always been, being a trope of the late 20th century that really only Science Fiction has been able to explain to any degree of success), but the mummy, vampire, and skeletons were all units that were immediately recognizable. Liches are familiar to anyone who's played D&D, and their model reflects that familiarity. The Bone Dragon was designed as a Necromancer's answer to the living Dragon; but anyone who's read a fantasy novel knows that where there are dragons, there are dragon graveyards. A Dragon Skeleton walking around isn't a real stretch of the imagination.
The Wizard was a little odd. Halflings, boars, golems, magi, titans, rocs. These are units of a different kind of trope: the Tolkien/Earthsea genre of fantasy, where giant eagles fly around, wizards carry staves with glowing orbs on the end, and hobbits (excuse me, halflings) are the real backbone of the resistance. Golems and Titans were the only units that were out of place, and not surprisingly they became two of the least interesting units in the game. I suppose Steel Golems might have had some origins with the Tin Man, and in that sense you could say that the Titan was a throwback to Hellenistic mythology - but in the end, it's a unit that throws down thunder from the heavens, wearing a helmet from ancient Greek military, which is where the Titan myth came from.
Are you noticing a pattern? Heroes of Might and Magic isn't well-known for its innovation of fantasy archetypes. If anything, until very recently they've been a major proponent in supporting those archetypes. Pig-faced orcs are the backbone of the Heroes fantasy genre, as unoriginal as that may sound.
Heroes of Might and Magic 3 is where the series starts to create new units. There you have the Death Knight (from Revelations), the Evil Eyes (from Dungeons and Dragons), the Lizardmen (from Conan the Barbarian), the bull-headed gorgon (again from Dungeons and Dragons), the four-armed Naga (from ancient mythology), the Gnoll (again from Dungeons and Dragons), the Behemoth (which, although apparently new, is essentially your generic "scary monster" and not very interesting at all), and the ghost-ish Wraith (which was the first step towards faction-aligned Ghosts, but without the proper name). And of these many "new" creatures, only the Behemoths are actually innovative as far as inventing a new creature. Every single other unit in the game (exceptions being certain neutral units) is pulled as-is from mythology or some other fantasy trope. And the fans loved Heroes 3, because its units were instantly recognizable, because they followed the formula that is as old as civilization itself.
Then 3DO stopped making the games. Ubisoft picked up the license; and then they hired someone else to make the next one. They picked Nival.
Nival did a fantastic job of creating a brand new world with its own mythology, its own cultures, its own brand of fantasy tropes - but when Nival created Ashan, and erased the history of the previous games, they also erased the mythology that the fans are familiar with. Now, instead of factions being populated with sort of kooky stereotypes that are nonetheless badass because of how well-rendered they are (compare H2 graphics with H3 graphics), we have a bunch of factions that look homogenized, primarily because they are. The Necropolis faction's units are now all tied to the necromancer who created them. The Sylvan faction is run by elves, so naturally their units are all the same kind of elf. The Haven faction is captained by a man who's obsessed with angels. Inferno is all about devils, and fire, and claws. Stronghold is almost entirely orcs.
Nival wrote the series into a corner; now, instead of units being grouped thematically (which would offer the developers a lot more freedom in terms of what sources they can draw from), units are grouped according to their allegiance. Which means that every unit has to be drawn from a known value within Ashan - a universe that, for the most part, fans don't know as well as their own.
I'm not saying that these new games are bad. I'm quite looking forward to Heroes 6, and despite its flaws I enjoyed Heroes 5. But to say that HoMM is all about reinventing preconceptions of fantasy stereotypes...One wonders if you actually played the older games. Because this is basically a brand new game with the same licensing. The games are practically unrecognizable from each other.
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DarkOdyn
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 05, 2011 10:09 PM |
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Welcome to the Forums, DarkOdyn.
Those screens of 'Sanctuary' creatures are leaked. They are low res and a WIP. Don't pay much attention to them now, a lot of it is going to be changed when they will be officially revealed.
Yeah I know that it's a leak (water creatures leak anyone?  yeah I know bad pun^^)But it is a bit strange line up if you ask me. For example the Kirin. Japanese describe it as a chimerical creature with flames over its body and in shape it is deer like or a dragon shaped like a deer with an ox tail. But we are in the heroes world so having mythology as a base is not that helpful . Inferno and Necro line ups are very good from what we have seen. Looking forward for them. The heaven one is tricky. I don't like the seraph (looks strange dual wielding those blades and the wings are strange) and as someone said priestess and glories could be thought over(crusaders maybe ? ) The change Stronghold looks quite interesting as well (love the harpy)
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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted February 05, 2011 10:12 PM |
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Edited by Lokheit at 22:16, 05 Feb 2011.
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I know. I was mostly replying to the guy who said it would be cool to have Guild Wars 2's Bone Minions.
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Anyway it would be cool to see something like that on a game, but the idea with the HoMM skeletons is to resemble soldier.
Another cool option would be Guild Wars 2 Bone Minions
The same way than Nighterror, I wasn't saying to put them directly on the game as copy-paste, but on Nighterror's inspiration list as the GW2 ones have skeleton face so they would be more similar to actual skeletons, but never said about putting directly on the game, in fact if you read the entire post I say that they aren't exactly what the HoMM skeletons are supposed to be, just that as a creature concept could be cool.
P.S: I like every creature from the Necropolis, if enything I would change the vampires for some sort of death knight (even without changing the model, wich is cool) because I don't like vampires too much, but this ones seems to have a different lore from the normal vampires (and thankfully, different from twilight too xD).
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