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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted June 07, 2011 10:42 PM |
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What if there's a Frenzy, and there is a Berserk spell?
It is possible they'd do that.
One is the extra hit, the other is the loss of control and power increase.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 12:01 AM |
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Quote: Of course it could be worse - for example some creature casting Frenzy on the attacked enemy as part of its melee hit... Oh, actually...
you mean, like the pit lord?
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted June 08, 2011 01:47 AM |
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Quote:
Quote: True, perhaps, but still it added a level of planning that you had to take into account that potentially, enemy Hero could counter your Frenzy (teleport unit among your own units for instance). Now it seems like you can just mindlessly use it.
It is not a control spell anymore. It is damage spell. The damage scales according to the stack though, which makes it unique. It is completely different spell, and in many cases very useful for your own creatures to make them berserk. Fitting as a fire spell.
I agree. And I also think the tactical potential is increased, since you can cast it on your own creatures.
Countering spells is also completely different, since the hero can act whenever they want (when it's one of their creatures' turn). So if it worked as the frenzy in H5 you would have three options:
1) Cast it before the enemy hero has acted - he counters immediately
2) Cast it after the enemy hero as acted - he can't counter it
3) Cast it when it's the target's turn next - he can't counter it
It would also mean a very little chance of ever using it on one of the fast creatures, since they always act first. All of this would just limit the possibilities.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 03:34 AM |
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Quote: I agree. And I also think the tactical potential is increased, since you can cast it on your own creatures.
you could in H5 too.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted June 08, 2011 03:44 AM |
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I know, but I don't know of anyone who actually used it in that way, since it was (almost) always better to use it on the enemy because of the lost turn in addition to the added damage. Now that's not necessarily the case.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 08, 2011 06:31 AM |
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Quote: Countering spells is also completely different, since the hero can act whenever they want (when it's one of their creatures' turn).
True at that, good point. Guess that only goes to emforce my dislike of the new (or should I say old) turn system, but of course they gotta stick with what they chose.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 08, 2011 07:12 AM |
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You prefered the first caster to be screwed over by the second just because the atb decided so? What's to like about that? While now it can be tricky on who decides to act first, you have more chances to take advantage of your army's timing than be a slave to it. Controlling the initiative means you control the spellcasting flow.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 08, 2011 07:23 AM |
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Is initiative still the same as speed?
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted June 08, 2011 08:45 AM |
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As I've understood they are not the same. Initiative determines who acts first and speed determines how far your creature can move.
But I seem to remember that haste effects both speed and initiative, although I hope that's not the case.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 08, 2011 08:51 AM |
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Sweet, thanks for the answer
That particular aspect of the gameplay always bothered me.
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 09:31 AM |
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Quote: You prefered the first caster to be screwed over by the second just because the atb decided so? What's to like about that? While now it can be tricky on who decides to act first, you have more chances to take advantage of your army's timing than be a slave to it. Controlling the initiative means you control the spellcasting flow.
sure , since now every army will have a max speed creature in its rank , the first to cast will be decided by a flip of a coin, which is certainly a major change in term of control with the ATB bar !
Well there is a change for the following cast tough , now they are decided by completely irrelevant paramaters non related to your hero.
Good System Old is always good ofc !
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 08, 2011 09:48 AM |
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Quote: sure , since now every army will have a max speed creature in its rank , the first to cast will be decided by a flip of a coin, which is certainly a major change in term of control with the ATB bar !
Well there is a change for the following cast tough , now they are decided by completely irrelevant paramaters non related to your hero.
Good System Old is always good ofc !
If you could describe anything as the flip of a coin it was H5 where initiative artifacts were retardedly powerful and 8 init marksmen could play before 10 init master hunters. Now initiative is very specific and you know exactly in what order your units will move.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted June 08, 2011 10:49 AM |
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I just realized the new frenzy spell works almost exactly like the special attack of the Champion unit in my Citadel faction. (theirs has a few less restrictions though)
Always like it when I end up designing something that gets put into a game anyway.
Though admittedly I have mixed feelings about how this plays out if it really replaces the spell as we know it from previous games and there isn't some kind of successor to it. (admittedly, it was ridiculously powerful)
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 11:18 AM |
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"Armageddon -> All non-infernal creatures, obstacles and walls on the Combat Map are dealt Fire Damage."
I hope that Armageddon won't be too powerful
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 11:21 AM |
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Quote: "Armageddon -> All non-infernal creatures, obstacles and walls on the Combat Map are dealt Fire Damage."
I hope that Armageddon won't be too powerful
It's the Utimate skill for the Pyromancer. It will either be totally worthless or totally overpowered
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted June 08, 2011 11:25 AM |
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They presented it in the week of Fire Magic but it is also listed as a Pyromancer (Inferno magic blood advanced class) ultimate ability on the reputation website.
Does that imply that every ultimate ability is part of an appropriate skill tree for that class?
I thought they had a special class tab for that. (sreenshots seem to indicate Might, Magic and Class subdivisions for the skills/abilities.)
Anybody got an answer?
Also on the firebolt -> fireball -> ??? discussion, it seems there is indeed 5x5 fire damage spell another rank higher.
I think that does indeed indicate a chain or requirement.
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Mr.Dragon Factions in production.
Citadel: 7/7 creatures, 2/2 hero base classes. (complete, for now)
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 08, 2011 11:37 AM |
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Quote:
If you could describe anything as the flip of a coin it was H5 where initiative artifacts were retardedly powerful and 8 init marksmen could play before 10 init master hunters. Now initiative is very specific and you know exactly in what order your units will move.
I would describe it more as a wind in the Sails. It gave the user a huge advantage, but still it was mechanical,
I Do think that Initiative was a god idea, but needed some adjustments.
As many others I Fail to see the prose in the new frenzy, It is now uncontrable, and has fewer tactical uses.
For example one of my favorite uses of berserker in Heroes 2-3 was to to disable the enemy Hero. Casting it on his last unite made shure I am safe from his spells.
Also I am one of those who used Berserker in Heroes V on his own troops. The increased damage was a good thing on Hydras.
About todays spells
Armagedon: So it is presented as a fire spell. Still it is an Inferno ability. interesting.
Fire storm: A more or less generic spell. still hoping for the fire shield and walking bomb
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 08, 2011 11:37 AM |
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@MrDragon: I think that the Inferno Unique Abilities (eg. Armageddon) wil appear in the Class ability section of the Ability tree and not the Fire Magic tree which only has Ranks 1 to 3 magic.
Yes I also thought Firebolt -> Fireball -> Fire Storm (you need the one to get the other)
Fire storm looks hot, seems similar to Meteor Shower which was an Earth Magic spell.....
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted June 08, 2011 11:38 AM |
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I love the new Frenzy, and agree with Elvin on its tactical relevance.
Hopefully there is a Dwarven Shield type artifact that once again can make your army Immune to the spell though
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 08, 2011 11:39 AM |
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Quote: It's the Utimate skill for the Pyromancer. It will either be totally worthless or totally overpowered
Yeah, I know but if the basic damage is too powerful and after that hero's magic attack rise it more... it will be super unbalanced.
Quote: I thought they had a special class tab for that. (sreenshots seem to indicate Might, Magic and Class subdivisions for the skills/abilities.)
Haven racial abilities. I think that for Inferno Armageddon will be somwhere in this section.
Quote: Also on the firebolt -> fireball -> ??? discussion, it seems there is indeed 5x5 fire damage spell another rank higher.
I think that does indeed indicate a chain or requirement.
As I said before I also suppose that the spells are conected.
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