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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 02:08 PM |
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Quote: Layout has always been the same too....
Not true. Take the H5 Necro town for example. They needed the Town Hall built first before they could build the Zombie dwelling. No other town needed to do that.
There are quite a few other examples, but you get my point.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 02:29 PM |
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Quote: Agreed, I thought building prerequisites were more annoying than useful and more tactical. It seems to be quicker what you can choose and strategize accordingly which I like....
Yeah because being able to build champions on day 4 is VERY tactical
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 16, 2011 02:51 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 14:53, 16 Sep 2011.
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I did that last time I played the demo... Lvl. 7 at day 4 or lvl. 6 at day 3...
They good point is that every player can do this, so it gets balanced. Also neutral stacks grow pretty fast and having strong creature at week 1 isn't big deal. I don't see a real problem here. Only that in all older games towns were more unique.
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BlazeHun
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 02:53 PM |
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Quote:
Quote: Agreed, I thought building prerequisites were more annoying than useful and more tactical. It seems to be quicker what you can choose and strategize accordingly which I like....
Yeah because being able to build champions on day 4 is VERY tactical
Playing on easy settings is not for tacticians
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 04:21 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote: Agreed, I thought building prerequisites were more annoying than useful and more tactical. It seems to be quicker what you can choose and strategize accordingly which I like....
Yeah because being able to build champions on day 4 is VERY tactical
Playing on easy settings is not for tacticians
Because you can't do it doesn't mean noone can. We've been saying since the beginning of the private beta that Inferno can build the Pits before the end of the week (not on day 4, but at that point, it doesn't matter as long as champions are done before the start of a week) in any difficulty and nothing has changed since then in terms of building costs and pre-requisites.
You're just having the same speech Zenofex had until he tried it by himself. Of course, at the beginning of the beta we only had Broken Alliance, but that doesn't matter. The fact is that it IS possible. In previous Heroes, you had to be a fast expander to do this and it came with a cost, in H6, it's easy and it gives you an edge.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 16, 2011 04:32 PM |
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Quote: You're just having the same speech Zenofex had until he tried it by himself.
I thought (for some reason) that the Champion requires all Cores and Elites as prerequisites, that's why I considered it impossible.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 04:34 PM |
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Quote:
Quote: You're just having the same speech Zenofex had until he tried it by himself.
I thought (for some reason) that the Champion requires all Cores and Elites as prerequisites, that's why I considered it impossible.
I know, but he's saying the same thing you did at that time "play in hard mode yadda yadda yadda"
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 04:38 PM |
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i'm not as negative as Nelgirith
but he does have a point here. I think removing some limitations is fair, but removing all of them is just an anarchy - and i think they did went wee bit to far with the building prereqs
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 16, 2011 05:53 PM |
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Yes, its possible to get to Town Rank 3 on 4th day, but to get the champion dwelling with 12,500 gold and over 20 of each resource, I think that will be difficult even on an easy map...
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 16, 2011 08:56 PM |
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Quote: Yes, its possible to get to Town Rank 3 on 4th day, but to get the champion dwelling with 12,500 gold and over 20 of each resource, I think that will be difficult even on an easy map...
Wel if I hae a Capitol 12g is a mater of 3 days and the rest depends on the map that you play.
I remember that Necromancer were my favorite in Heroes II because thay could have Bone dragons at week 1 or 2. That was there advantage. Thay lacked the number advantahe of Knights and barbarians or the brut stenght of Wizards and Warlocks so thay had Speed.
And for all of you "All should be Eagul"
This was a strategic feature!! To chose my faction acording to teh situation on the map. and use its characteristics as eficient as could go. Not to have all unite sthe same level, cost and number (overex.)
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2011 09:35 PM |
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Quote: Yes, its possible to get to Town Rank 3 on 4th day, but to get the champion dwelling with 12,500 gold and over 20 of each resource, I think that will be difficult even on an easy map...
It only takes some skill and practice, the only real limiting factor is how rich/poor the starting area is.
You won't build champions in week 1 on a map like A bridge too far, or even on Tree of Plenty, because of the way the maps is built, but you can do it on Broken Alliance (haven't tried on Wheel of Hate but it seems doable as well) because every mine and most resource piles are at 1 day from your castle.
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Mithrandir
Hired Hero
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posted September 17, 2011 12:09 AM |
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I have to say I agree with Dave Jame about building prequisities: they were logical and they were fun. In most cases, they weren't too much restrictive, but they were adding some spice to the game. The fun is in overcoming obstacles, not in some childish "I can build everything I want, weee heeee!"
Lack of prequisities (both in town and hero building) is my huge dissapointment in H6.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 17, 2011 12:32 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 00:36, 17 Sep 2011.
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There are sort of prerequisites but pretty lame (town level mostly) and currently this can't be changed drastically because it is too closely linked to the balance. Adding additional requirements for the Elites and especially for the Champion will make them too hard to get and will render them nearly useless in the vast majority of the games. It's all about this Core - Elite - Champion thing which has more flaws than advantages at this point. Getting the Champion later than week 3 automatically reduces it to a spectator in all but the longest games (more than 3-4 months) and the game becomes a "who will make more Cores and Elites for X time". This quite possible even now, imagine what will happen if they make the path to the Champions harder.
Otherwise, the lack of prerequisites is yet another lamer-friendly feature which on the other hand makes the factions uniform instead of diversified.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 17, 2011 10:23 AM |
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Lets just let the numbers play for a while
In Heroes II and average town had 26+1 constructable buildings the +1 stands for the Castle itself that you needed in order to build.
These structures could be devided into
Main Hall 1
Dweling 9
Fortification 3
Common 7
Mage guild 5
Special 1
In Heroes III and V most towns had 34 structures the numbers differ in common structures due to the Shipyard, Special buildings which H-III had aprox. 5 and V had aprox. 4 and the fact that H III had not had the same number of mage guilds. The avarage number for H III is 33,5 SPF and for Heroes V its 34,5.
Main Hall 3
Dweling 14
Fortification 3
Common 4/5
Mage guild 5
Special 5/4
In Heroes VI we have 29 buildings but from these we can only construct 27. Thats only one structures more than in Heroes II! Yes, some may say this because of the fact that H2 had 5 mage guild. But it Also had only 9 dwelings, 1 main hall and lacked the Town portal structures. And only the number of dwelings is enought to fill the Mage guild gap.
Main Hall 3
Dweling 14
Fortification 3
Common 5
Mage guild 0
Special 2 out of 4
So tell me, does this seem like a sufficient number of structures to build
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 17, 2011 10:48 AM |
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Quote: So tell me, does this seem like a sufficient number of structures to build
Like several other aspects of the game, there's a lack of diversity. You can see that especially in the building trees or in the lack of race-specific perks in the skilltrees.
If you listen to Erwan's answer in the Q&A, it was a deliberate choice, since it seems the average Heroes player is a "retard who has to be hand-held" (I haven't invented that, he clearly stated several times that Heroes was a complicated game ).
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 17, 2011 03:04 PM |
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Hey guys, been quite some time since I last posted here. Got caught up with real life issues (namely: work work work work work work work, holidays, work work work work work work) and what little free time did I have left, I spent it on anime and lol.
So, I wanna catch up now! Is the game out yet? How was the Beta? Are the Town Screens still pint sized? And the duplicate creatures still in? What else is hot and new? System reqs by any chance?
I dig the new Dragon Gods art and the returning heroes, by the way. Does that mean we get to see them in game?
Anyway, lots of love though I dislike the most of you!
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 17, 2011 03:17 PM |
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Quote: Like several other aspects of the game, there's a lack of diversity. You can see that especially in the building trees or in the lack of race-specific perks in the skilltrees.
I don't think diversity in twon building is the problem, it's the NO prerequisites that's the problem for most of us, I don't see it as a problem though.
There is diversity in the skilltrees, remember it's free for all now and you have to plan your build well depending on faction, class and reputation now...the only obvious musts are:
Demon - Luck skills
Haven - Morale skills
Orcs - Attacking skills (neutral)
These help the faction abilities. The rest of the skills are all strategy on how to use them effectively together.
No more "Okay, I'm demon so I have to build a certain route" or "Okay, I'm Necro so I have to have Dark Magic".....no, now it's all encompassing...what will work well with what skills....
My two cents, maybe I'm wrong, but yeah!
GO SPRINGBOKS!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 18, 2011 08:59 AM |
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Quote: I have to say I agree with Dave Jame about building prequisities: they were logical and they were fun. In most cases, they weren't too much restrictive, but they were adding some spice to the game. The fun is in overcoming obstacles, not in some childish "I can build everything I want, weee heeee!"
Lack of prequisities (both in town and hero building) is my huge dissapointment in H6.
And it's not even like they were that hard to figure out. If I'm not mistaken, in Heroes 5 the building chart was pretty intuitive and there were arrows showing which buildings were required for which. Not something that required rocket science to figure out, even if you were a noob.
Quote: Hey guys, been quite some time since I last posted here. Got caught up with real life issues (namely: work work work work work work work, holidays, work work work work work work) and what little free time did I have left, I spent it on anime and lol.
So, I wanna catch up now! Is the game out yet? How was the Beta? Are the Town Screens still pint sized? And the duplicate creatures still in? What else is hot and new? System reqs by any chance?
I dig the new Dragon Gods art and the returning heroes, by the way. Does that mean we get to see them in game?
Anyway, lots of love though I dislike the most of you!
Good to see you back, Kordial. Let me try to answer some of your questions.
- Game is due mid october.
- Beta testing has been going on for quite some time. It is ... very buggy. But apart from that, it sort of divides the waters. The game is very pretty (apart from town windows and some messy UI), but the new features alienate some older fans. Particularly the new skill system (pick whatever you like), reduced ressources and new unit system has made debate.
- Town windows are still pint sized, but will (probably) be changed at some point post release. Dupliccate creatures are still in, although Light Elemental got a colour change (and is now white).
- Dragon Gods are supposedly not in game, while old heroes are.
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What will happen now?
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 18, 2011 09:22 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 09:31, 18 Sep 2011.
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Yeah, I got around to playing the Demo yesterday. A little bit of the Campaign and some skirmish as a Barbarian.
Man, the Town Screens are such a HUGE disappointment! Who in the right mind thought it's a good idea to make them like this? Such a waste of one of the most classic features of the series...
Well, other than that the game was great. Well, as much as I played because I didn't spend more than a couple hours on it. Maybe a few minor aesthetic details bugged me, which I even don't care enough to address them. But the Town Screens...
About that thing with the fewer resources. I must admit that I like it better now. It felt quite natural to me as if it always should be like that. That was one decision they made in the right direction. Well, that's my opinion at least. I didn't get to play the game much to get familiar with the new skill trees so I don't know about them yet.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 18, 2011 10:37 AM |
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Quote:
Quote: Like several other aspects of the game, there's a lack of diversity. You can see that especially in the building trees or in the lack of race-specific perks in the skilltrees.
I don't think diversity in twon building is the problem, it's the NO prerequisites that's the problem for most of us, I don't see it as a problem though.
There is diversity in the skilltrees, remember it's free for all now and you have to plan your build well depending on faction, class and reputation now...the only obvious musts are:
Demon - Luck skills
Haven - Morale skills
Orcs - Attacking skills (neutral)
These help the faction abilities. The rest of the skills are all strategy on how to use them effectively together.
You gotta be kidding. Who would spend 3 skill points for +6 morale or +6 luck when you can get more from artifacts or even from map buildings ? Remember that 1 morale/luck only means 1% chance to trigger which makes these skills totally worthless. There are much better skills to spend your points on : Ambush, Battle March, most warcries, tactics 1/2, most warfare skills, spells.
If you want diversity, I'd suggest you have a look again at the H5 skillwheel. There were basic trees, faction unique perks and some special perks that were shared by some factions only. That's diversity and that's what they should have taken as a base to build their skilltree, not some cheap and lazy copy-paste.
Might heroes from each factions do not feel unique. The only differences come from the creatures they have and from their racial skills.
Magic heroes have only two differences, one magic school and their amount of mana. that's not enough either.
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