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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 140 210 280 350 420 490 ... 502 503 504 505 506 ... 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 28, 2011 05:30 PM

Quote:
Why ? Kha-Beleth and Sar-Elam never existed at the same time. If Kha-Beleth is indeed what remains of Sar-Elam after his sacrifice, it would be logical to say that Sar-Elam is Kha-Beleth's worst enemy, as Sar-Elam represents everything Kha-Beleth is fighting against.

Also, the fact that Kha-Beleth seems to be much clever than the average Demon Overlord and that Kha-Beleth is striving to free the demons and "give them a right place to live on Ashan" could prove that Kha-Beleth has himself been "corrupted" by the good spirit of Sar-Elam.

That's.. not logical. Even if we assume that Xana did not know, I am positive that they hadn't thought that far ahead as to drop subtle deceptions

Also what if he is clever, who said all demons are dimwits. And frankly demons stand for personal freedom, they need no 'good corruption' to seek a plan for said freedom.
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted September 28, 2011 05:56 PM

Quote:
who said all demons are dimwits.


Heroes V did. In fact, I think every single demon in the plot, with literally no exceptions aside from Alastor in Hate Breeds Hate, ended up getting "comically" punished by Kha-Beleth (for no reason, in Jezebeth's and Erasial's case) or killed by someone else. Sheogh did not even have one single competent commander in the whole story.
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Mitzah
Mitzah


Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
posted September 28, 2011 06:09 PM

Quote:
Anything new about the news "that will please absolutely everyone"? They also said they'd make an announcement (maybe the same) about the town screens.


Guys?
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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted September 28, 2011 06:15 PM

@Mitzah

For the first part I don't know, for the second, Irina said that they will tell something about town screens later in this week...

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 28, 2011 06:35 PM

Quote:
I would've loved to have discovered Sar-Elam and Kha-Beleth are one and the same. Contrary to Zenofex, I think it would've added very serious depth to both the Demons and Ashan itself for his agenda to have changed so dramatically, such that he now completely sympathises with the Demons for some reason and is trying to undo the prison he created. It would certainly have elevated Kha-Beleth beyond his present status of "Sauron-esque rapist villain".


Hmm... you might actually have a pretty good point. Im a big fan on Inferno and the Demons, because I have always been, not because their characters and personalities in H5 were inparticularily captivating :S. From what I understand Sar-Elam ascended to Dragonhood due to the teachings of Asha, I mean he sacrificed himself to seal the demons away...thatd have to be one hell of a change of heart. And if they dont come up with a very good reason (no other tool than "betrayal" is there? What else could make someone change so drastically. Perhaps he finds out he didnt have to sacrifice himself, that Asha could have done something or something like that) I think it would simply ruin the Souvereign and Sar-Elam as characters. And thats why I wasnt too hot for that idea...
But youre right Cepheus Ashan desperately needs a wakeup a call. I can get behind the "powerful being thirsting for freedom"-act the Souvereign has been pulling for now but what you are suggesting is obviously infinitely more interesting.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 28, 2011 06:41 PM

I think that Ashan can break free from its confines without jumping the shark. H5 didn't do much to immerse us into the setting, not ingame anyway. But having seen a few things, I know they will delve deeper and show more this time around.
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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 28, 2011 06:56 PM

Quote:
Quote:
who said all demons are dimwits.


Heroes V did. In fact, I think every single demon in the plot, with literally no exceptions aside from Alastor in Hate Breeds Hate, ended up getting "comically" punished by Kha-Beleth (for no reason, in Jezebeth's and Erasial's case) or killed by someone else. Sheogh did not even have one single competent commander in the whole story.

I agree. H5 depicted the Demons are total asshats and Clash of Heroes confirmed it

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 28, 2011 07:10 PM

Sar-Elam and his disciples sealed the demons away in Sheogh. Sar-Elam sacrificed himself, yes, but I don't think he sealed himself with the demons in Sheogh.....

Kha-beleth cannot be Sar-elam.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted September 28, 2011 07:44 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 19:46, 28 Sep 2011.

Quote:
But youre right Cepheus Ashan desperately needs a wakeup a call. I can get behind the "powerful being thirsting for freedom"-act the Souvereign has been pulling for now but what you are suggesting is obviously infinitely more interesting.


Well my criticism (barring H6 because I obviously can't spoil it) is just that Ashan has been very inert so far. As a world, it has the most immobile status quo in Might and Magic's history, which bothers me. I realise it is only new as a setting and is being built to last for a lot of games, and that we haven't even seen a second continent yet, but in terms of plot progression it has been operating more like a cartoon than a dark fantasy setting. You know, "what dastardly deeds will the evil Kha-Beleth and his demons get up to today, muahahahaha, and how will these plucky young heroes thwart his schemes".

Everything goes back to normal by the end of all Ashan games (in TotE, the protagonists even have a jolly old laugh) and nothing has happened to the world (the Unicorn Empire business barely counts). It would be nice to have a strong twist in the narrative to show us the consequences of actions on this world and change its dynamics, turn things upside down a little. Sar-Elam = Kha-Beleth would've done that, and waking up Asha would be another. Something, anything, with a far-reaching effect on the history.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 28, 2011 07:46 PM

And I'm saying a twist isn't such a good thing, if the overall quality of story-writing is lacking. There were plenty of twists in Heroes 5 too, such as RAELAG was actually AGRAEL, who knew? Heh...


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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted September 28, 2011 08:22 PM

That wasn't a twist. Everybody knew that before release.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 28, 2011 08:50 PM

Ashan doesn't need twists as much as it needs to treat its explorers as grown-ups. The Heroes V story had the maturity of Voltron.

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TBDS
TBDS

Tavern Dweller
posted September 28, 2011 10:58 PM

Is there anyway to run the beta atm?
any offline mode?

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 28, 2011 11:50 PM

Quote:
Well my criticism (barring H6 because I obviously can't spoil it) is just that Ashan has been very inert so far. As a world, it has the most immobile status quo in Might and Magic's history, which bothers me. I realise it is only new as a setting and is being built to last for a lot of games, and that we haven't even seen a second continent yet, but in terms of plot progression it has been operating more like a cartoon than a dark fantasy setting. You know, "what dastardly deeds will the evil Kha-Beleth and his demons get up to today, muahahahaha, and how will these plucky young heroes thwart his schemes".


You mean like that show that Tim Curry and Matthew Lawrence did back in the 90s?

(Don't know what I'm talking about?  Click Me!)

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 29, 2011 08:02 AM

Quote:
Well my criticism (barring H6 because I obviously can't spoil it) is just that Ashan has been very inert so far. As a world, it has the most immobile status quo in Might and Magic's history, which bothers me. I realise it is only new as a setting and is being built to last for a lot of games, and that we haven't even seen a second continent yet, but in terms of plot progression it has been operating more like a cartoon than a dark fantasy setting. You know, "what dastardly deeds will the evil Kha-Beleth and his demons get up to today, muahahahaha, and how will these plucky young heroes thwart his schemes".


I don't think fantasy stories need twists, like thrillers and CSI stories need. They are fantasy, so need depth of character and strong forces against each other, ie good vs evil. The story of Ashan has taken alot from Tolkien, where the Dark Lord kept the readers engrossed with his cunning and malice. There is no second continent, so just like Middle-Earth, Ashan has it's focal points geographically. What we need is Kha-beleth and the Faceless having strong fearful characters.

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LRN
LRN


Adventuring Hero
posted September 29, 2011 11:30 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Well my criticism (barring H6 because I obviously can't spoil it) is just that Ashan has been very inert so far. As a world, it has the most immobile status quo in Might and Magic's history, which bothers me. I realise it is only new as a setting and is being built to last for a lot of games, and that we haven't even seen a second continent yet, but in terms of plot progression it has been operating more like a cartoon than a dark fantasy setting. You know, "what dastardly deeds will the evil Kha-Beleth and his demons get up to today, muahahahaha, and how will these plucky young heroes thwart his schemes".


I don't think fantasy stories need twists, like thrillers and CSI stories need. They are fantasy, so need depth of character and strong forces against each other, ie good vs evil. The story of Ashan has taken alot from Tolkien, where the Dark Lord kept the readers engrossed with his cunning and malice. There is no second continent, so just like Middle-Earth, Ashan has it's focal points geographically. What we need is Kha-beleth and the Faceless having strong fearful characters.


For my part I agree with Cepheus. Hopefully H6 will be an improvement...

As for fantasy stories not needing twists, I can think of too many examples of the contrary. There is nothing wrong with the "classic" style DoubleDeck describes and it has given as some great stories (even relatively recent ones like The Riftwar Saga or the Fionavar Tapestry to name but a few) but book series like the Malazan Book of The Fallen, The Chronicles of Amber and the Song of Fire and Ice certainly question non-twist requirement and the clear-cut distinction between good and evil, even the need for a fight between Good and Evil with capital E and V. Personally, i believe that good stories require a few twists, but that's only my opinion.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 29, 2011 11:39 AM

Quote:
As for fantasy stories not needing twists, I can think of too many examples of the contrary. There is nothing wrong with the "classic" style DoubleDeck describes and it has given as some great stories (even relatively recent ones like The Riftwar Saga or the Fionavar Tapestry to name but a few) but book series like the Malazan Book of The Fallen, The Chronicles of Amber and the Song of Fire and Ice certainly question non-twist requirement and the clear-cut distinction between good and evil, even the need for a fight between Good and Evil with capital E and V.

I'm a big fan of the Amber series, will have to check out the rest you mentioned
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Sorts
Sorts


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2011 12:41 PM

Sry for my english (i understand english well, but the grammar part... not so good )

In Fantasy worlds a balance of forces is often required for the world to exist normaly. Sealing the demons to Sheogh would have saved the world, but maybe upset the balance too much towards order. So Sar-Elam agreed to become an Antagonist to the world, becoming Kha-Beleth and creating the flaws on the ritual as part of keeping the balance between order and chaos. Acting in begginning in shadows and later more openly.

So all Kha-Beleth's schemes might be actualy just for keeping the world in balance, actualy serving Asha all the time and keeping some form of leash on Urgash. Or he might even become corrupted over the years.

Not maybe the clearest theory, but some possibility for that exists.

Also, reading how jerks some of the angels and Haven folks are, im slowly getting an idea about the elder war between angels and faceless. Elrath and Malassa may have their quarrels, but possibly The Angels in their pompous righteousness might have been the ones who started warring with faceless and caused the Elder Wars.

And now we are having a jaded Archangel willing to start it all again
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 29, 2011 12:55 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 12:57, 29 Sep 2011.

Uh... right, one more scenario to present Urgash as a passive plot device which is there just to make sure that the "heroes" will have something do excuse their actions with. Seriously, the antagonists need to be much more than characters who just attend to the story when their presence is required. This artificial and completely lacks the dynamics of the real life which is the prototype of all stories, including the fantasy ones. You can't have the person who designed the prison of the allegedly greatest threat to all Ashan under the nose of one of the two most powerful beings in the universe and make the latter blind to this fact. This is regarding the "secretly serving Asha" version (moreover Order =/= balance in this context). The "corrupted" version suffers from the fault which I already mentioned before - why wouldn't Sar-Elam destroy the prison that he created himself?
But then again, we've already seen worse so in any case even the Sar-Elam scenario, being greatly imperfect, is better than the best in the Heroes V plot.

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2011 01:42 PM

Quote:
why wouldn't Sar-Elam destroy the prison that he created himself?

Because he can't anymore ? He no longer has the power of a dragon

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