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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Would the US be better or worse if it was broken apart?
Thread: Would the US be better or worse if it was broken apart? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 18, 2010 12:58 PM

I don't think anyone forced you to join the EU. Your countries wanted to join.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted October 18, 2010 01:33 PM

The way that I see it, the membership in EU has brought Lithuania nothing but trouble. Sure all that money to support agriculture and other funding is a good thing indeed, but they aren't used to their full extent. Also our goverment does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to make our lives better, they only care about looking good in front the EU. Our quality of life is reduced greatly during the recent years of this so called "economical crisis". Heck in one city the people pleaded to delay the heating season, because they didn't had the money to pay for the heating. And that's the least of our problems. It could be a lot better though, if our goverment wouldn't waste so much money on stupid project ideas and could do a better job managing the damned country. No wonder people emigrate.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 18, 2010 01:50 PM

Membership in the EU, though, is different than in the Warsaw Pact or the COMECON: you were not forced in any way to join.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted October 18, 2010 02:19 PM

I don't understand why W. Europeans tend to like the EU and E. Europeans tend to hate it. It should be the opposite, but maybe this is for another thread.

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


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Cerise Princess
posted October 18, 2010 02:50 PM

Didn't the Brits have the biggest whiners?
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted October 18, 2010 03:20 PM

@Bboy: Because we who were in the Soviet bloc have a problem with the liberalistic politics of EU. Just look what happened in Belgrad during the gay parade, you'll see what I mean. The majority is still living in the past.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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VokialBG
VokialBG


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posted October 18, 2010 03:36 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 16:30, 18 Oct 2010.

@JollyJoker and Blizz: You don't know it, but noone wanted it here. In Bulgaria for excample most of the people were against it. We pay to the EU but we get nothing. The true is that the government and the political people that were ruling us were for the EU. Why? EU give money, true, and the guys in the government want them. The ordinary bulgarian doesn't get anything good from getting into the EU, the one that govern him - does. For the ordinary bulgarian the membership in the EU is just another reason to pay taxes, and he doesn't have the money to. For the governing bulgarian politician it's source of money. And the worst thing is that no one ever asked the people of Bulgaria if they want to join the EU community or not, no one asked them for NATO too. SO basicaly small part of the bulgarians really wanted it. Most likely it's the same on the other places. Bulgarians were nearly 450 years slaves of the turks de facto, and 45 years slaves of the communist de jure and now they are slaves of the EU for 3 years... Many fear that if Turkey get into the EU, Bulgaria is going to be economicaly conquered by Turkey. I don't want to be ruled by some Great Brother (USSR) or Grand Master (Ottomans), I want to see my state finally free. Ruling itself. And the true is that pretty much it's governed by USA, EU and some idiots at the Ministers Council. In conclusion: Yes, bulgarian nation was forced to join by it's goverments.

And also what Kip said. We are more conservative than the EU want from us. And I don't find it wrong.

@Elodin: Whatever you say, it's not right to force whole nation to fallow your political and social system. What if they don't want to? You can't build democracy for a day, or a week, or a year. Or 10. You just can not. So if the USA really care about the democracy then they need to leave the world to rule itself the way it find it ok.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted October 18, 2010 03:59 PM

Time to go off-topic on my own thread. Curiosity has set in:

So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 18, 2010 04:08 PM

Well, Vokial, then don't blame the EU; blame your politicians and send them elsewhere.

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VokialBG
VokialBG


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posted October 18, 2010 04:29 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 16:38, 18 Oct 2010.

Quote:
So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?


Never. They knew that if they give us the right of referendum they can not enter the Union and make themselves rich. Also if they give us just one referendum, we may want one more for other important decision, and one more... and one more... etc. They do not want this. The oligarchy is going to be ruined.

Quote:
Well, Vokial, then don't blame the EU; blame your politicians and send them elsewhere.


I blame them both, since NOW they both keep making us poor. Along with the communists before 1989.
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted October 18, 2010 04:31 PM

Quote:

So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?

I don't know about what's up in Bulgaria, but in Lithuania after the referendum took place the people rushed to the stores to get free beer and washing powder. In short we were bribed to join.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 18, 2010 04:35 PM

Then blame the corruptness of your people.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted October 18, 2010 04:42 PM

I would rather impale them on a sharpened pole.

Look at Greece. It's a matter of time before the same thing happens in Lithuania(although it already had, only on a much smaller scale)
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 18, 2010 04:56 PM

But the reasons for Greece's crisis (and it's avoiding of state bankruptcy) are extremely debatable.
Do you really think, Lithunia would be better off outside the EU?
I mean, on a more funny sidenote, can't you live all in relative wealth, providing especially Sweden, but the rest of Scandinavia as well, with cheap "duty-free" spirits?

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted October 18, 2010 05:14 PM

Everyone knows the Estonia is best place for that.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 18, 2010 05:35 PM

[quoteAnd you didn't even take the dictator out. We had to do it ourselves a year later, when you went away, cause all your democracy cared about is getting to Kosovo. Leaving behind a trail of anti-Americanism and anti-Westernism, and giving far-right nationalist idiots here much needed popular support which now worsens every day.

Have you ever wondered why other countries, including democratic ones, can't seem to appreciate what you're doing for the free world? How only you can understand how much freedom and joy you bring?


As a long-time American, I an only say that I wish you were not correct.

<IMO>The problem is, 'America' is two things and it was not supposed to be. One is the people of the United States and the other is The Government of the United States. That has led to what you wrote above. The Govenment supported Castro in Cuba at first and Marcos in the Phillipines and so on etc. That's why you hear Amercians (people) saying one thing and their Government doing another. If you read our news you will read that laws are passed without nearly a majority. Also then 'one person' can overturn what the majority voted for.
George Washinton's Farewell Address of 1796 is one of the most important documents for an American to read and most do not even know it exists. I realize this does not address the problems you posted but at least it is a small start. Heck, at first our Government did not even recieve money for serving. Now they write books while in office.

Q. Since, if we take out a Dictator that is killing his folks, ends up bad in the world's eyes and not taking him out ends up bad in the world's eyes too. What would You do?

Americans have died all over the globe trying to set folks free. Look at WWI and WWII. Unfortuately, that's not remembered anymore, while yet, most of the American people are still that same sort. Most Americans do want to help...not hurt.

Take care, Markkur
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted October 18, 2010 05:37 PM

That's a very good question JJ. And now I'll try to answer it.

In the current situation? Definetely not. With the current ruling body the country's going down. Without the EU it would had happened already. Unemployment is high. Don't look at the statistics it's all bullsnow and made to statisfy the ruling body of EU. Social service sucks. Attending to a university is a luxury. A magisters degree costed me ~3500€ (~12000 lithuanian litas). Scholarship is a chicken feed. My brother receives a 28.69(insert a halelujah here) euro scholarship which according to the goverment should bd enough for the WHOLE month. There are alot of other negative things in here. So in the current situation it is better to be in the EU. I can only speculate what it would be like with a ruling body that cares for the people and outside of EU.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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baklava
baklava


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posted October 18, 2010 05:42 PM

The EU is a complicated topic.

Vokial said that corrupt politicians thrive under the EU. But here in Serbia, the lack of the EU or similar higher control is one of the main reasons corruption thrives.

Right wing politicians here are openly against the EU, but I'm getting the feeling that even the more "democratic" ones aren't too eager to join. None of them likes the rules and standards that the EU would impose on them; they prefer to have their own little playground. And I'm not too sure that the West wants us, either, at least until it gets everything it wants from us, in terms of foreign policy, inner policy, and God knows what else.

And then there's the issue of the aforementioned masses; if the anti-EU lot here ain't more numerous, they're certainly at least louder than the pro-EU folks. And quicker to put a "foreign mercenary" / "national traitor" / "snow" label on all who disagree, as well as "react accordingly". And events like the disgraceful recent riots regarding the pride parade are a good example of how easily things can get out of hand.

I myself am not too keen on joining either side, but I am far more disgusted with the "right-wing" one, and do believe that Serbia could benefit from the membership - if we were in the EU all along, things would certainly have gone different for us. So I suppose I'm leaning more toward the EU, even with their cucumber length regulations and gay people dancing through the street in thongs (it would be great if we could somehow avoid that bit, though).

But I can't shake off the feeling that we'd just be put in the same second-class membership basket along with the rest of Eastern Europe.

Sometimes I think that a separate Eastern European democratic union might be a good idea.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 18, 2010 05:53 PM

Quote:
Let's say the 50 States of the US each become fully independent countries. Florida and the Floridan keys start speaking Spanish. The Mid-Atlantic industrial belt starts speaking German. New England speaks English. The Louisiana territories start speaking French. The Pacific coast starts speaking Chinese. Alaska starts speaking Russian, and the western heartlands start speaking Vulcan.

What would the advantages and disadvantages be? How would it affect commerce? How would it affect politics? How would it affect the culture? Would certain regions benefit or suffer more than others?


Man, that's a snakes-nest. Anything could result.

Florida, Texas, and Cal. are already well on their way to becoming some place else.

Since the old immigrant way of learning the language as primary, is unacceptable to too many these days and splinter-factions abound to push any one-thing and many of our polital leaders do not serve anything except themselves...I doubt 'dividing-further' is going to help anything. The Vulcan, would sooner or later demand I stop speaking Russian (I learned it because I have a brother in Nome) because he thinks I look too much like Spock.

Make a great Map/Day

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VokialBG
VokialBG


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posted October 18, 2010 06:02 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 18:07, 18 Oct 2010.

@Kip: Here the university scholarship currently is 0.00 Before that it was 90 leva (around 45 euro), but you need grades like... 5,70 (6.00 is the highest one)

Quote:
But here in Serbia, the lack of the EU or similar higher control is one of the main reasons corruption thrives.


@Baklava: Some were thinking the same way. If there is corruption EU can not stop it. It's going to raise since more money are coming to the state, someone have to care about them Same happened here. Same will happen there. The corruption can not be stopped by some power from outside (EU), but by the powers inside. So the government need to work on it for proper result. And when the government is corrupted... you got the point. EU can be something very good, and can work pretty well, just Eastern Europe is not for there. Leave it to the West. Maybe some sort of Balkan Union can work best for the states around. Or Balkan Union in the Euro Union. It was always great idea. To bad we spend more time in hating each other.

Eastern Europe must first fix the inside problems alone, not hoping the EU to help them. Otherwise the folk pay more taxes... and that's all.

Please let's move this to the other thread if some like to discuss it more.
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