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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted November 12, 2010 12:06 AM |
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There are rich people in the US who give 90% of their income to charity.
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http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2005/10/Rick-Warrens-Second-Reformation.aspx?p=2
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And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1869498/posts
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How those pastors handle their wealth varies widely. Some admit to being millionaires. A few forgo church salaries and tithe 90 percent of their income. Ultimately, though, there are about as many ways to spend pastoral wealth as there are to earn it.
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/docs/item1306
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Some people have a goal to give 90% of their income. The percentage of their giving increases with their income. In this way, they arrive at a lifestyle and income they are comfortable with, such as one hundred thousand dollars a year, and give away the rest of their money. By the time they earn one million dollars a year, they can donate 90% of their income and still have the $100,000 a year to live on. When the Dalai Lama earned the Nobel Peace Price, he was awarded a large sum of money. He gave the entire amount away to charity. At the time, he had been living on about $10 a day. Many wealthy and well known philanthropists became wealthy while giving away 50% of their income.
Although the left likes to paint rich people as greedy people there are quite a number of rich philanthropists who give massive amounts of money to charity. Obama tried to limit the tax deductions of charitable giving for the rich. Fortunately he failed or charities would certaily have suffered.
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shyranis
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posted November 12, 2010 01:53 AM |
bonus applied by Mytical on 14 Nov 2010. |
Edited by Mytical at 09:53, 14 Nov 2010.
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Indeed, auditing the Fed along with all of the departments including the DoD are right wing ideas. Though many people that lean left ALSO want an accountable government and for money to go to things efficiently. There was a time when a lot of civil servants had a sense of pride and duty that accompanied their positions. They worked extra long hours for less pay then their private counterparts because they knew they would improve their countries through their sweat and tears.
Now that's not as common of an occurring. I do see those types of people still, but these days the modern cynicism that is prevalent in society seems to have poisoned a lot of people's work ethics in general. It seems most people these days need management to work very closely and supervise them, or they will start to take unnecessary liberties with their work, causing further inefficiency. Which is why I'd advocate we audit, audit, audit and severely punish those found to be abusing their positions paid for by public money. I'd even say audit companies that take federal money and defund them if they don't keep within the rule of law. (With of course, an amnesty to start otherwise we'd have to defund nearly every company working with the military to be honest. Actually, I think similar rules are already in place. Which is why they defunded ACORN. They just are not enforced like they should be.) So yes, we also need to enforce current anti-corruption laws involving the use of Federal money. Politicians from any party generally don't like to enforce rules that would send them to jail though...
That's true whether that politician is a
 onservative
or a
Or a 
or
All I know is that our countries are surviving despite the inadequacies of the elected few.
Yes there are quite a few rich that give away large percentages of their income.
Warren Buffet, Paul Allen and Bill Gates for example on the business side. Sadly, most people cannot afford to give that much but a lot of people do strive to.
Personally, we used to give a paltry 5% of our income to charity, we always wanted to give more but we need to get to a point where we can support it. Lately we haven't been able to give any. My husband as I mentioned used to work for and volunteer for the Salvation Army and YMCA. I would like to start giving more once we are financially stable again. The worst part about the financial crisis is that we had to live off debt on top of our savings.
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I have repeatedly stated that charity is not a matter for the government. So if a person is willing to work but can't work for whatever reason he should seek aid from the private sector not from the government.
The private sector is just as rife with people abusing the system as the public one. As mentioned earlier in this thread. Had there been no form of governmental help, the private sector would have been overburdened and I daresay, my family probably would all be dead in a field/swamp/jungle somewhere. I understand the point you are making, but we do need some moderate form of aid. It would not be so unconstitutional if instead people were given the option to opt into the programs they wish to pay for most with their taxes and opt out of others. Other countries don't have this constitutional quandary though. That's beside the point though, if we audit, enforce the rules and eliminate the waste we can cut off the people who just game the system and save precious tax dollars for those really in need (and for paying off the national debt).
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Frankly I'm saddened by how honor and integrity have evacuated this place. It's no wonder so many of the better posters no longer come here.
A couple people have nominated me of all people for a QP at one point. Can you believe that? =p I certainly wouldn't deserve one. Glad the mods agree. I'm only speaking my mind from my experiences.
Mod Note: You actually probably deserve more then one. Mytical has just been lax. Bad Mytical. Correcting this post haste, because you have an excellent way of expressing yourself.
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mvassilev
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posted November 14, 2010 09:48 AM |
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Just a few words about auditing the Fed - it's a bad idea because it implies that the Fed should be accountable to whatever (inevitably) elected body audits it. Which undermines the whole point of an independent central bank. We can't allow elected politicians to have control of something so important.
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wog_edn
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The Nothingness
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posted November 14, 2010 02:30 PM |
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Elodin, you do realize that not everyone has the means to get economical aid from personal sources? My parents don't have the money to support me, the rest of my family dislike my parents since they were the only ones to get a safe living early on (which means a self-owned house). Had the government had no system to help those less fortunate I would be pretty much screwed, as getting a job is easier said than done.
But you obviously don't seem to understand that not everyone is lucky, or have people giving you stuff whenever you need it, so I guess talking to you about it is a big waste of time. I just think you should try getting down from your big golden horse and try to see how people from more 'poor' families struggle.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted November 14, 2010 04:38 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:40, 14 Nov 2010.
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Wait, so you are saying there are no charitable people in Norway? Really?
As I said earlier, the more economic freedom the country you live in has the greater someone else's ability to offer others help will be. However, even in dirt poor nations people typically help their friends and relatives. So unless a person has lived life as a jerk he usually has someone who will help him. And often people help even jerks.
Of course a person has to be willing to cast aside his pride and ask someone else for help.
There are also local churches and charities that one can seek aid from. Surely you are not saying there are no churches or charities in Norway and that friends, relatives, and neighbors will not help one another?
Before the entilement mentality of Marxism came along people sought aid from friends, relatives, neighbors, charities, or charitable people in their towns.
Sorry, I am not speaking from a golden horse. And I acually live a pretty modest lifestyle. I just don't see any justification for anyone to say that they are entitled to my money. I give more than half of what I make away of my own free will. I just don't want it stolen from me by a theif who is just a citizen or by a theif who is a government beaurocrat. I believe in people helping people. Charity.
The tea party is about returning to a small unintrusive Constitutional government. Government should stay out of our lives as much as possible. Usually when the federal government tries to solve a problem it causes more problems than it solves, not to mention that it wastes massive amounts of money doing even things the Constitution authorizes it to do. And redistribution of wealth is not something the Constitution authorizes it to do.
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baklava
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posted November 14, 2010 06:07 PM |
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"Usually", "typically" and "often" aren't good enough to guarantee people a living, Elodin. Charity is a wonderful thing, but it can't be relied on to help everyone in need, when a huge percentage of rich people follow MVass ethics.
It'd be ideal not to have to force anyone to do anything, in a society where people genuinely care for each other and everyone knows just what to do.
However, there is no such society and we need to think up ways to ensure that a man can get some basic aid when he needs it even if he doesn't have any relatives that can help him out.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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baklava
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posted November 14, 2010 06:13 PM |
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By the way, I found an interesting bit in that article about Rick Warren you posted. It goes:
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When you read this prayer it really sounds quite selfish. Solomon is the wisest and wealthiest and most powerful man in the world, because he is the head of the United Kingdom of Israel when it is at the apex of its power. He prays, "God, I want you to make me more influential. I want you to bless me and give me more power. I want you to make me famous. I want you to spread the fame of my name to many nations."
It sounds selfish until you understand he says, "So that the king may support the widow and orphan, care for the poor, defend the defenseless, lift up the fallen, release the captive, help the foreigner, the immigrant."
God said to me, "The purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence."
If a king, an unchallenged autocrat, could have, according to the Bible, help out the poor and speak out for those with no influence, to support the poor etc, why won't you allow the government to do something similar?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted November 14, 2010 06:14 PM |
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It takes "charity" organized at government level of ability to make it worthwile. Otherwise you're just paying for private fundations that can't do diddly **** due to their limited abilities, funds and decentralized organization. "Private" Charity is inefficient: it can't address the register of people in need like "social" medical care because it simply lacks the government-granted position and access. Globally speaking, charity is a huge waste of time. It can't match the level of organization and privileges "social" charity, government-funded can reach.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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baklava
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posted November 15, 2010 12:35 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 00:39, 15 Nov 2010.
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Well, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time, far from it. Charity is, in my opinion, one of the ethically healthiest things a man can do by himself (charitable organizations, therefore, help spread that spirit to more people; in theory, at least. In reality, you can very rarely even trust those). It's also an important factor in my personal motivation - if it was all just about my needs, I'd be more than content with working as an, I don't know, bartender. One of the main reasons I'm going to university is to eventually earn more, and thus be able to give more. And create my personal army of hobos to overtake the planet with.
But charity is definitely not enough.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted November 15, 2010 12:51 AM |
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There's nothing wrong with charity, and to donate one's money to it is quite admirable. But it's insufficient.
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baklava
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posted November 15, 2010 01:15 AM |
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Well grab my nuts and call me Jimbo.
MVass, is that you, man?
What happened to the "I get no profit from helping others" thing?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted November 15, 2010 04:52 AM |
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I don't think you understand what "profit" really means. I prefer not to use that term in places where it isn't relevant (that is, outside of theory of the firm). "Consumer surplus" would be a more accurate term. Anyway, the ultimate goal is not to have the most money, but to maximise one's own utility - which is something money helps to do. If spending money in a certain way gives me utility and doesn't impact somebody else negatively, why shouldn't I do it? And if giving to charity gives me utility, then all the better. It's actually similar to a normal market transaction, except the person who receives your money doesn't do anything for you (at least not directly), and your utility comes from the knowledge of having helped somebody else.
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baklava
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posted November 15, 2010 08:48 AM |
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But then why are you opposed to a contract of monthly "charity" which would ensure that poor people get much needed medical aid?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted November 15, 2010 10:10 AM |
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I'm not. I object to people who haven't signed that contract being subject to it. And even there I don't object completely - as I said, reducing crime has positive externalities (that's why charitable donations get tax breaks) and to what extent welfare reduces crime is an empirical question, not one of economic or ethical theory.
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baklava
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posted November 15, 2010 10:22 AM |
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So you wouldn't really mind a solid, functioning public welfare system?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted November 15, 2010 10:32 AM |
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If it was shown to be cost-effective, then I would have no objections. If it reduced crime effectively, then I would apply the same argument in its favour as I did to police. Of course, welfare also reduces incentives to work, which is why it should be structured in an efficient way, and should be scrutinized to see whether it's working well enough to justify it. But I have no fundamental moral objections to it as such - only to arguments that appeal to emotion and/or economic equality, instead of taxpayer self-interest.
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baklava
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posted November 15, 2010 08:15 PM |
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Seems we basically want the same crap then, we're just disagreeing on theoretical shyte.
Well, that's something.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted November 15, 2010 08:26 PM |
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I started a thread for charity vs welfare discussion since it is getting rather off topic in this thread.
Clicky
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This thread is pages long: 
