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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Tea-party
Thread: Tea-party [ This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (11) 12 13 14 ]
DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted November 07, 2010 11:25 AM

Quote:
US is working on lots of purely offensive weapons


All weapons used by the military can be used for defense AND for offense.
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Markkur
Markkur


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Onward through the fog!
posted November 07, 2010 12:25 PM
Edited by markkur at 12:28, 07 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe what American's need then is the right to say where "their" tax-dollars go. Let yours go to space. I'll send mine to Medicare, it's bankrupt..now. Fair enough?




Quote:
NASA is a matter of national security, welfare is not. Welfare should the be the domain of charity. Taxes should have nothing to do with it.


Mars is a matter of National security?

Quote:
Quote:
Ya know, I can think like that but not before things are straightened out here...now.




Quote:
Things on earth will never be straightened out until Christ returns. There will always be evil oppressive tyrants who keep their people in poverty and who want to conquer the world. There will always be people who will not work. There will always be unfortunate circumstances.


"No man knows the hour" Good stewardship remains valid. Medicare is paid for by Americans all of their working life. Are you against them using it at time of need?

As far as Private charities, ever had to go to one? I very recently worked on behalf of a woman dying from cancer. I tried everywhere to get her help. And I mean most any place that was possible to go for aid. In the end the best I could do was give some effort in supporting a small local-fund-raiser that didn't make a dent. She left behind several youngsters. Need is huge in this great country of ours and the normal givers are already stretched to snapping points and are often very sad that they are unable to really help anyone else. Having a third to a half of an income taken in tax, does not help private charities fill-in the need-gap that we have right now as you would like it to. This country is in serious economic times and yet the spending policies are still geared towards business. I can tell, I'm not going to get any agreement here on what should be priority.

Quote:
Quote:
One Arab leader says the best way he could stop terrorism was with...jobs.




Quote:
But that is untrue. There are very well off and even wealthy terrorists. Terrorism is about an ideology, not poverty.


I do not think he was lying. He was the President of Lebannon? It's been a while. His point was that there are too many young men standing about without work and they are very hopeless. (My words)They stand around in despairing-groups and become fodder for the next wind that blows. I don't think he was making excuses for the richer few that may be indoctrinated along with them or even 'leading them.'

Quote:
Oh, and the poverty in Arab nations has to do with oppression by tyrants. That is why there are no jobs there.


Sweeping generalizations are a bad idea. I'm guilty of that practice myself but trying to put it to an an end. I'm sure there are several reasons for no work there, just like there are several factors that have the U.S at around 17% un-employed. No one even knows the real numbers with the optimized reporting policies of the Government.

Quote:
Oh, I agree that the globalists in charge of the US are responsible for exporting good manufacturing jobs to China. Nonetheless, there are in fact jobs in the US that are not filled. And I came out of deep poverty by working long, hard hours, several jobs at a time.

I've done a lot of that splitting fire wood myself.


I do not know how many "good jobs" there really are out there that folks do not want, but I cannot imagine many. Since both parties spin to sell their Party and both get reported as fact, I'll never know.

I have a three decades+ old, hard-working-man-story too but its too long and frankly it's quite a sad tale of sell-out. Not just me...millions like me.

Make a great day, anyway

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2010 02:28 PM

bak:
You're right, I do think that people should pay for their own mistakes. But sometimes that's just not possible. Suppose your neighbour's house catches fire. Ideally, if he hasn't paid for fire protection, he should experience the consequences - either find some way to put it out himself (maybe with the help of his neighbours) or just suffer the consequences of having his house burn down. Unfortunately, that's not how fires work, and if his house catches fire, yours might too. It's better for you if the firefighters put his fire out. But if he hasn't paid, then he'd be getting that service for free, which is inefficient. Therefore, everyone should pay for public services with taxes.

Of course, you're right about the military. The US spends far too much on it and pursues an excessively aggressive foreign policy. I'm not supporting that by any stretch of the imagination. When I say that the government should fund the military, I mean a small, defensive force.

Markkur:
Your Luddite kind has always been wrong and will be wrong again. Tech increases productivity and livelihood. Always. This is not even a subject worth discussing.
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Markkur
Markkur


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Onward through the fog!
posted November 07, 2010 02:57 PM

Quote:
Markkur:
Your Luddite kind has always been wrong and will be wrong again. Tech increases productivity and livelihood. Always. This is not even a subject worth discussing.


I'm wrong about many...many countries now "Depending heavily on Tourism" and per your opinion...the U.K. as in Scotland, Wales and Ireland? And if global travel nose-dives?..What do they do then? Depending on a visit, does not sound logical nor...sound.
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted November 07, 2010 04:12 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:13, 07 Nov 2010.

Quote:
All weapons used by the military can be used for defense AND for offense.


Especially stealth bombers.

Bombers in general are meant to destroy specific parts of infrastructure with laser-guided bombs.

VEEEERY helpful when defending your country. Unless you mean counter attacks.

Tanks are also something great for defense in modern times, yeah...
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 07, 2010 05:37 PM

The threat of offensive power sometimes is the best defense.

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Baklava
Baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted November 07, 2010 05:57 PM

What happened to me right now is one of the more horrifying realizations in life.

I'm... defeated.

MVass, I tried to find a hole through which I'd smuggle a tad of my sense of ethics in your sense of self-interest, but I failed. I now understand that the way things are now over there is perfect for you.

Let me explain myself.

What you're talking about is a type of forced solidarity: a man doesn't want to be protected, but has to pay up, since more people want it and pay for it, and it's impossible to un-protect that single individual; if he doesn't pay, he effectively gets for free what everyone else is paying for. His imprisonment for not paying is simply protection of interests of those who can and want to pay; as well as a reminder to anyone who wouldn't. It's rational, in a capitalist society, to discard liberty if deemed unprofitable, and "unfair" to those who pay.

On the other hand, a poor man with a bad heart condition, diabetes, teeth infection or whatever isn't a threat to anybody but himself. He'll be quarantined if he has some kind of heavily contagious disease, but anything other than that, and he's on his own. No one is paid to care. No one gets anything out of helping him out.

I cannot argue with that logic. The way things are now over there, the way American culture and civilization have developed, is undeniably in the best interests of people with enough money.

Your way of thinking is, according to your principles of self-interest, completely fitting and rational. There's no denying it. Mine is, too, for my sense of ethics, of course, and that's why we can't reach a conclusion - which one of us is right depends simply on whether the observer leans to your morality and sense of thinking or mine. The difference is, yours rules the world.

Funny. I suddenly feel an inexplicable chill. Must be getting cold outside.
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted November 07, 2010 06:07 PM

Quote:
The threat of offensive power sometimes is the best defense.


As long as we think like that, humanity is doomed.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2010 06:35 PM

Quote:
So.... then I would like to hear your argument on why jobs and prosperity does not stop terrorism.


it's not exactly terrorism, but there are many common points. nazi germany, fear of losing the privileges granted by the system.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2010 06:36 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 18:40, 07 Nov 2010.

bak:
I acknowledge your concession. Now we're 1-1.
Your summary is generally correct, but I'd like to clarify about a few things. Security - is it necessarily the best way? It often is. On the other hand, a similar argument can be applied to social programs. If it is cheaper to basically pay people off from being criminals than to hire security to stop them, it's a similar situation and is also a public good. That's why limited social welfare programs may be necessary (again, because if one person decides to stop being/not become a criminal, everyone benefits, not just those who paid to help him). The comparison of security and the justice system to various welfare programs in per-dollar cost of stopping crime is an empirical question. Probably there is some value to both. I don't know.
And it's definitely much cheaper to vaccinate someone than to quarantine them. And there's less of a question about whether their rights are being violated, too.

Also, as a rule of thumb, freedom is the best way to secure well-being. Public goods are relatively uncommon and are more of an exception.
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Baklava
Baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted November 07, 2010 07:04 PM

Don't go and celebrate just yet, I still believe you're heavily wrong ethically, just not logically.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Dudeman. Half dude. Half man.
posted November 07, 2010 11:07 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 23:17, 07 Nov 2010.

Collectivist-minded people would argue that nationalized healthcare still benefits everybody indirectly by ensuring everybody is decently treated. Humans are a resource in themselves: by the time a person has simply went though the public school system, the government has already quite a bit invested in them. It's in the government's, and thus also the taxpayers', best interest if that person is kept healthy and working rather than growing up into an adult and then dying shortly afterward. Up until a person is self-sufficient and paying taxes, they are by definition a parasitic being.

Not that I wholly agree with that, but it's not as though everybody that supports nationalized healthcare does so strictly because they're sentimental and sappy.

As a country becomes more socialized, the government naturally becomes more and more like a mega-corporation. It invests money in public schooling and then more money in university schooling, and like any corporation, it has to do risk management. This is why there are criteria and tests put into place before a person can study a certain profession, because the government wants to help ensure that that person will succeed in their study's and the investment that taxpayer money put into them doesn't go to waste. Likewise, they want to make sure their members continue to prosper throughout their working life, and thus there is the desire for healthcare.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 07, 2010 11:11 PM

Quote:
As long as we think like that, humanity is doomed.

Many species think like that and have evolved accordingly.  It is natural.  Natural, of course, has no moral connotation.

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Shyranis
Shyranis

Hero of Order
posted November 08, 2010 12:20 AM

Quote:
Oh, there will always be the poor for a number of reasons, including:
1) Lack of a work ethic;
2) Oppressive rulers--the primary reason for poverty in third world nations. Often the tyrants confiscate aid that groups send in and distribute the confiscated goods to their own supporters or use it to enrich themselves;
3) unfortunate circumstances;


Indeed, the third option will always exist regardless of how enlightened humanity becomes as a whole.

Quote:
Private charity, not the government stealing money from people, is the way to address poverty. Private groups can hold people accountable for their actions and make sure aid goes to those who actually can't work, not to the lazy who won't work.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Assuming the man is not to lazy to fish.


Sadly, the lazy who won't work take just as much advantage of the Private organizations as they do governments.

My husband worked for the Salvation Army (was even run down by a crazy old lady with her ancient mother also in the car, who he caught stealing from the donations), and there was one particular good for nothing person who would get as much free stuff as possible as he had no income. Well, he was actually only caught because the Government (which he was also trying to take advantage of) sent somebody to drop something off at his house, and saw that is was HUGE. Way too large for anybody to support on handouts. (Said gentleman I believe was in the same family as the lady that ran down my husband).

Private charities are just as likely to be abused. At least on Welfare the burden of proof is heavily laid on the shoulders of those soliciting for aid (or is there no burden on the people in your country using those services?) but with many religious charities on top on non-religious ones, all you need is a sob story. There are also quite a few phony religious charities ((and phony charities in general)) (not just Christian, this is a thing that victimizes all faiths, all potential money to go to the needy) that are run by religious leaders and claim to help people but wind up only enriching the leadership. You pretty much can only really trust the really established ones, but even then those charities themselves may be made into suckers.
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted November 08, 2010 01:15 AM

Quote:
Quote:
All weapons used by the military can be used for defense AND for offense.


Especially stealth bombers.

Bombers in general are meant to destroy specific parts of infrastructure with laser-guided bombs.

VEEEERY helpful when defending your country. Unless you mean counter attacks.

Tanks are also something great for defense in modern times, yeah...


Stealth bombers can also be used to destroy enemy armour, convoys and base camps.

Not to mention crippling the enemy war industry is a vital part of war.
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted November 08, 2010 04:41 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 04:48, 08 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Many species think like that and have evolved accordingly.  It is natural.  Natural, of course, has no moral connotation.


Yet no other species has the power to shape this planet. The more power is in our hands, the more "old way of thinking" or "natural way of thinking" is dangerous.

Quote:
Stealth bombers can also be used to destroy enemy armour, convoys and base camps.

Not to mention crippling the enemy war industry is a vital part of war.


With US situation and positioning? Any way to reach US with traditional army is via sea. Their navy is impressive and a legion of submarines will track and sunk every convoy possible, mind you. This isn't world war 2 where you blindly searched the sea hoping to find a cargo ship.

Base camps? Sure there would be many enemy base camps on US territory within any conflict...

Armor? It first has to get to your territory. How do you expect an enemy army to get armor on US territory? Even if it miraculously did, there are still cheaper and exactly as effective ways to deal with it.

Crippling industry is offense, not defense.




US cannot be reached the "traditional" WW2 way of sending tanks into their territory. It can be only harassed by aircraft, or attacked with ballistic missiles, and the defense of that country would suffice if built around countering those two major threats. Even if we conjure up completely unreasonable scenario of a massive landing-operation, US has nuclear weaponry. Such a convoy would be annihilated with a single nuclear attack, should it come to this, nuclear attack being perfectly justified due to no civilians present & ocean territory.

Stealth bombers just don't cut it as defensive. In any form of aggression the US can face, they are pretty useless. Great if you wanted a global war with China or such, but come on.. this isn't a Fallout game.
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted November 08, 2010 07:18 AM
Edited by Darkshadow at 07:20, 08 Nov 2010.

Quote:
With US situation and positioning? Any way to reach US with traditional army is via sea.


Or just drop them to Mexico before declaring war?

Quote:
Crippling industry is offense, not defense.


How so?The enemy uses industry to produce more war machines to attack you with.

Quote:
Such a convoy would be annihilated with a single nuclear attack, should it come to this, nuclear attack being perfectly justified due to no civilians present & ocean territory.


Nukes will be always retaliated against, since the only countries capable of massing a landing into US have nukes.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted November 08, 2010 08:58 AM
Edited by Elodin at 09:04, 08 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Mars is a matter of National security?


Everything to do with space is natinoal security. Space is already militarized and will become more so. Whoever dominates the space race will have a huge military advantage.

Quote:
"No man knows the hour" Good stewardship remains valid. Medicare is paid for by Americans all of their working life. Are you against them using it at time of need?


I don't oppose someone who has paid into Medicare drawing Medicare when needed. I am opposed to the government forcing people to pay into Medicare through a Medicare tax as the current situation is.

It is immoral and illegal for the federal government to force a citizen to buy any product or to tax them for the purposes of redistributing wealth. The federal government has no Constitutional authority to be in the welfare business at all. The Medicare tax is not Constitutional.

Yes, people are to be good stewards of what God has given them. Jesus taught individual charity. Not the government stealing money from the people and then transfering that money to the poor.

Also, the New Testament specificly says for Christians NOT to support those who will not work.

Quote:
2Th 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.


Quote:
2Th 3:12  Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.


You will notice that each person is to work and to eat HIS OWN BREAD, NOT BREAD I EARNED FOR MY FAMILY.

Quote:
Pro 18:9  He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.
Pro 21:25  The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.



Notice the Bible does not teach that others are killing the lazy people by not supporting them. It says the lazy kill themselves by their actions. They waste their time and energy doing things that don't earn them the money they need for survival and instead want others to make their living for them.

Quote:
This country is in serious economic times and yet the spending policies are still geared towards business. I can tell, I'm not going to get any agreement here on what should be priority.


Sorry, I disagree that the US governemnt spending is geared towards business. I guess you are talking about the unconstitutional "bail outs." The US has one of the highest taxes on businesses in the world.

The biggest yearly budget items are the military and "entitlements."

Quote:
I do not think he was lying. He was the President of Lebannon? It's been a while. His point was that there are too many young men standing about without work and they are very hopeless. (My words)They stand around in despairing-groups and become fodder for the next wind that blows. I don't think he was making excuses for the richer few that may be indoctrinated along with them or even 'leading them.'


Sure he was lying. If poverty produced terrorism there should be large numbers of terrorists coming out of the slums that exist in America. That is not happening.

Quite a few terrorists are quite well off/wealthy. Terrorism is produced by an ideology, not by poverty. The ideology most responsible for terrorism is "radical" Islamic teaching.

No, no one is "indoctrinating" poor Arabs into becoming terrorists. The "radical" Islamic clerics preach hatred for Jews, Christians, Israel, American, and the West in general. Everyone who won't convert to Islam must die or pay tribute money and live under Sharia law as virtual slaves. That is the ideology and it has not one thing to do with a person not having a job.

Most Arab nations are tyranical to their people. Virtually no democracy. That authoritarian government is responsible for the conditions in the nation.

Having grown up in poverty I felt no desire to go blow myself up and kill others. I knew no other poor people who had that desire either.

Poverty has not one thing to do with terrorism.

Quote:
I do not know how many "good jobs" there really are out there that folks do not want, but I cannot imagine many


You can't always work a "good job." You have to work the jobs that are available until you can find something else. But there are jobs out there. I've done lots of manual labor. I worked three jobs at once because I wanted to work my way out of poverty. Now I own my own business. And it is not a result of "luck." It is a result of sacrifce, hard work, and getting out of bed (after sleeping very little) and going to work when I felt soooo tired that I just wanted to throw up my hands and give up. But I had a goal. And a plan. I worked to make it happen.

Quote:
All weapons used by the military can be used for defense AND for offense.


Yep. And it is impossible to win a war by defense alone. Being able to strike behind enemy lines and take out supply lines, warehouses, industry, ect is very useful and necessary for trying to weaken the enemy and to shorten the lenght of time the war will continue.

Quote:
Sadly, the lazy who won't work take just as much advantage of the Private organizations as they do governments.


Perhaps they take advantage of certain large national/international charities. But local charities are far more able to detect fraud. The church I attend helps the poor. We also get to know them as individuals. We see who is actually trying to help themselves and who is not. We allowance for a "pity party" time where people do very little to change their situations and just sit around feeling sorry for themselves but sooner or latter if they show they are not trying to help themselves aid is no longer given.

And of course besides the fraud in the federal welfare system the federal system requires a huge overhead and involves lots and lots of wasted money.

Charity is best left to the private sector for both ethical and economic reasons.

Quote:
Quote:
Many species think like that and have evolved accordingly.  It is natural.  Natural, of course, has no moral connotation.



Yet no other species has the power to shape this planet. The more power is in our hands, the more "old way of thinking" or "natural way of thinking" is dangerous.


Going on the offense is natural. You can't win a war by pure defense alone.

Also, since you are talking "natural way of thinking," look at the world around you. Animals go on the offence. So offense is natural.

What is unnatural is to say "I'm going to let him try to punch me as much as he wants to. All I'm going to do is try to dodge the punch."

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Baklava
Baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted November 08, 2010 09:05 AM

Quote:
What is unnatural is to say "I'm going to let try to punch me as much as they want to. All I'm going to do is try to dodge the punch."

Something like Jesus?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted November 08, 2010 09:18 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:19, 08 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Or just drop them to Mexico before declaring war?


Cause nobody in the US would notice massive troop dropping to Mexico done by the hostile nation. Sure.

Quote:
How so?The enemy uses industry to produce more war machines to attack you with.


It's retaliation. You enter their territory and destroy their land. How is that defense? Counter-attack, yes. Defense, no.

Quote:
Nukes will be always retaliated against, since the only countries capable of massing a landing into US have nukes.


If you use your forces to defend or act on independent terrain (ocean), let them retailiate... especially since there is nothing to retaliate against. Unless you consider they would start bombing civilian areas with nuclear fire.

Well that's why the cash should go to a better anti-ballistic missile system instead of useless B2 bombers rusting in hangars. Given the current situation, the B2 may be already outdated when US will eventually NEED them for something different than bombing Arabs with ak-47/74.
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