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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Denmark
Thread: Denmark This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted November 08, 2010 02:19 PM

The cartoons were fun as hell and actully semi true

I must say that Alci is right. But I still think they are kinda of a joke, most of DF say is just to get attention, dont you agree Alci?

And well, we just made new laws on the foreign politics - I am not sure if it will be good or bad, I actully think it will be better
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted November 08, 2010 06:11 PM

Quote:
Xerox...

Ah well **** it, I'll do it anyway.

Let's look at Sverigedemokraternas immigration-political program:

• All residence permits shall be temporary.
• Immigrants that do not possess passports or other means of ID shall be banished immediately.
• Hiding immigrants shall be criminal.
• Immigrants shall not receive benefits in cash and only be allowed to do simpler tasks outside of their accomodations.
• Immigrants in waiting shall be bundled off to a zone outside EU.
• Those who are not swedish citizens must be 24 years to be allowed marriage. They must also give a higher contribution to the state.
• A person that needs a translator must pay for it himself.
• Immigrant-organizations (whatever that is - Adrius) shall not receive any benefits.
• Christian holidays shall be celebrated in school, christianity shall play a bigger role in schools.
• Veils and turbans shall be forbidden during work.
• To become a swedish citizen you must wait for 10 years, and after that you must pass a citizenship-test as well as commit a declaration of loyalty towards Sweden.



I feel a bit lazy today, so I want a intreprention of this list.....
If we ignore the bottom 3 one, ask for what circumstances are all about the translator issue(what situations does it apply to), and ignore the cash issue, the list seems to be fairly "alright".
There are far to many people who throw away their ID just to get inside the country, and chip away their fingers to avoid being identified, the problem is soo huge that we need a zero tolerance policy.
The one about "bundlet outside of EU", is mainly to keep it fair with actual immigrants who seek permission first. I guess its a bit really odd, but its not completely out of place.
Hiding immigrants is already illegal is it not? So it is not really news.
The marriage one is not really a problem either. It would actually stop some inbreeding.

But yes, the list or more or less completely snowed over, and Sweden is shooting themselves in their foots by overlooking such a sad fact.
Hopefully it won't turn into Denmark, and hopefully it won't spread into Norway(well, i am white with strong scandinavia roots and our goverment needs a small cleanup politically, i would actually not mind).
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted November 08, 2010 07:16 PM

Yeah, many of the things on that list ain't all too bad, but I felt that leaving them out might be considered biased so I kept them anyway.

The main thing about Sverigedemokraternas immigrant politics though is that they don't want to improve immigration, they just wanna remove it altogether.

I realize there's a problem, otherwise Sverigedemokraterna wouldn't have the amount of votes they have to today, but their solution to the problem is simply too extreme (and totally fricking illogical too imo)
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Disturbed-Gnu
Disturbed-Gnu


Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
posted November 08, 2010 08:25 PM
Edited by Disturbed-Gnu at 20:29, 08 Nov 2010.

Proud to be danish?

Hmm, We are some of the happiest humans in the world, and we drink much much more than most countries.. So in other words, we drink alot and we are happy about it ;P

We don't have much violence, i mean, a knife-stab makes the front page.
So that is another thing..

The drawings of M.. is, erh, as i see it, not a problem at all..? It was just a drawing, and thats it..

We do not like stand-up unless its danish.. Even though i do like Jason Rouse...

South Park calls us the European Canada cuz we are stupid, selfish and simple..

We do have some celebs if they are worth anything:
HC Andersen
Viggo Mortensen
Mads Mikkelsen
etc etc..

Errhm, so i'm not proud of being danish, but i think denmark is one of the better countries to live in..



Oooh, and we've got VOLBEAT!!!! Haha!



EDIT# Ofcourse that was on some unserious ratings, meanings and fun facts..

If you look at our system, and all that, i think we are solid.. No one can be totally poor, everyone can get help, and no one is left behind..
And i could tell alot more, but i have time now..
I've just snowed up my intsallation of Borderlands

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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 08, 2010 09:40 PM
Edited by Shares at 21:43, 08 Nov 2010.

This is copy, paste directly from the Sverigedmokraternas "Protocol of Principles", which basicly describes their ideology. Their innermost opinions and the way they think soceity should be like.(I added BB-code)

"Den nationalistiska principen
Den viktigaste faktorn i ett tryggt, harmoniskt och solidariskt samhälle är den gemensamma identiteten, vilken i sin tur förutsätter en hög grad av etnisk och kulturell likhet bland befolkningen. Av det följer att den nationalistiska principen - principen om en stat, en nation - är grundläggande för Sverigedemokraternas politik.

Den nationalistiska principen bygger på idén om nationalstaten, att statens territoriella gränser ska överensstämma med de befolkningsmässiga gränserna. I sin ideala form är alltså ett sådant samhälle befolkningsmässigt homogent. De rådande omständigheterna i  Sverige och i omvärlden omöjliggör att principen praktiseras till fullo. I många fall är nationerna vidare än statens territorium; så även för Sveriges del. Det lever ett betydande antal svenskar utanför Sveriges gränser, dock främst i vårt eget närområde. Dessutom lever här sedan lång tid tillbaka ickesvenska befolkningsgrupper, som till exempel samerna."

This is my rough translate:
The principle of Nationalism

The most important factor in a safe, harmonic and solidaric society is the shared identity, which requires a high ammount of ethnic and cultural similarities with the boundaries of the population. In its ideal form such a society is homogeneous. With the current conditions i Sweden, and in the rest of the world, makes it impossible that this principle is fully practiced. In many cases is the territory of the nation wider than that of the state; which is true for Sweden as well. There's a considerable ammount of swedes that lives outside of Swedens borders, though mostly in the nearby areas. There's also non-swedish groups of people that have lived here for a long time, like the Samis.

Translation ends there, but to clearify, there's a definition of "culture" roughly one page down:
"Kulturen utgörs av den omgivning av självklarheter, minnen och föreställningar som vi lever i och som vi är med om att forma. Kulturen tar olika form genom tid och rum. De unika och
olikartade identiteter som mänsklighetens olika folk och folkgrupper uppvisar är betingade av deras respektive kulturer. Kulturell mångfald är lika nödvändig för mänskligheten som biologisk
mångfald för naturen. De skilda kulturerna är mänsklighetens gemensamma arv och bör erkännas och skyddas till allas gagn."

Free translation:

The culture is made out of the enviroment of obviousities, memories and conceptions that we live in and that we are forming. Culture takes different shapes throughout space and time. The unique and different identities that humanitys different people and peoples shows are caused by their different cultures. Cultural diversity is as necessary to humanity as biological diversity is for nature. The different cultures is mankinds common heritage and should be acknowledged and protective for the sake of everyone.



So, basicly, they're saying that
a) a country cannot work well when people aren't of the same ethnicity and culture(i.e. every one have the same way of seeing things)
b)that a country works as best when every one are as simmiliar in ethnicity and culture as possible
c) the samis (the native population of sweden) aren't really swedish
d)that culture always changes and that that is very important and that different cultures should be preserved.

We can conclude that, since the samis aren't swedish, origin is not a factor and that a black and a white can not co-operate in society, since they are too different(thus we should try our best in keeping them out of Sweden). Oh and that culture must change and we have to preserve it!

Yeah, it's a rough and not very objective view, but still, they do say all that.

And I know that this is just the theory of their politics, and that practise usually differs a lot(for the worse), but if the practised politics are worse than the theorized then the practise must be really bad if the theory sucks.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 08, 2010 10:00 PM

And is there something wrong with that?
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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 08, 2010 10:05 PM

Saying that people of different ethnicities cannot get along because of their ethnecities?
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 08, 2010 10:10 PM

I thought they said people will not agree about issues because of different cultures. Or different cultures in the same place complicate things.

That's very much correct.

Example. Pork is cheaper than beef. So schools would like to offer pork. Then we get muslim and jew students who can't eat that. That means either the jews and muslims won't eat or the school will have to spend more money for different foods.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted November 08, 2010 10:18 PM

Thats not a issue, that is just a minor complication.
The issue is that SD are a stark racist contrast to Sweden, a country who wants to be a paragon of multi culture and integration alongside the other Scandinavian paragons.
Well, the problem is that the muslims in the first place was allowed to create a ghetto, from where they just become a sort of subculture and a separate culture. Along with a lot of other mess.
If islamic immigrants never topped the crime statistics, this would never have happened, because Sweden is a country who is enjoying to just pass over problems so long they are not large enough.
You could sort of say SD are not swedish, in the same way FRP is not Norwegian(FRP is a popularist right-wing party who sort of never gets snow done since their not interesting to the voters). SD wants something done, by purging it, sort of the same way burning passionate haters want everything purged with fire.
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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 08, 2010 10:21 PM
Edited by Shares at 22:28, 08 Nov 2010.

But since they define culture as something that is more about a way of thinking and acting, rather than a historical heritage, I (as a "pure swede" for generations back) would not fit the "swedish culture".  I get that, fine, but that doesn't mean that I automaticly cannot contribute to society. That is what their politics are portraing. That people that, by ethnicity or culture, cannot contribute and most likely are even a strain. Saying something like that in a country that would decrease in population without immigrants (while it is also lacking workers) would be contraproductive and would in the long run make Sweden a wasteland or in short term decrease our quality of living and increase overall poverty.

Del diablo: True. Problem is that it is hardly the immigrants of sweden who created the ghettos. It was the politics that demanded that all the cheap(and thus ugly) housings were to be built right outside or on the edges of the cities so that you would not have to see them as well as reducing cost of buying land and to cut down the prices for finished appartments. Building mixed areas, with cheap rental options, appartments and bungalows in the same areas would've fixed this problem. Saying that immigrants tops the criminal records is true, but you might as well point at social class rather than ethnicity. You would see that poor and unemployed would top the criminal records. This leads to the evilness of 22. (I am not disagreeing, just explaing further)
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 08, 2010 10:35 PM

Ghetto comment with del diablo is completely right. That's where the problem lies in most countries. They are too tolerant. When people moved to different countries 100 years ago they assimilated to the culture then. Now they preserve their own because people are tolerant and it's bringing problems.

Their definition of culture is exactly correct.
Shares wouldn't fit into his "pure swede" ancestors' company a hunred years ago.

Culturally different people can contribute to the society but they will strain it at the same time. Even if it's just little things, those little things pile up. If there was a same cultured person instead that strain would not exist.

And stopping the flow of immigrants would only hurt in short term, some 20-30 years. Once the bigger classes of world war two afterboom dies out it would even itself.


I'm interested in what happens in some 100 years when the muslims gain the majority from the regular swedes. If they haven't assimilated by then you've got a huge problem by then. Israel responded to it by gathering more jewish immigrants but you don't have that option. It's going to be a blasted fireworks show.
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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 08, 2010 11:47 PM

My point was that even though I can be consider to be a "pure swede" of "pure Swedish spirit and culture" I will put the same strain on soceity as someone with a different culture. It is more about personality than culture.

Besides, only a fraction of the immigrants in Sweden are muslims. The vast majority are from Denmark, Finland, Norway and the baltics and swedes that have lived abroad (though I don't know where they drew the line when counting(couple of years? For one generation?)) and then returns to Sweden.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 09, 2010 08:12 AM

Not eating meat or being a pacifist is more culture than it is about personality. Things like (not)being religious are part of the culture as well.

Counting the Finns as immigrants is kinda old since they've been there for some 50 years. That's like U.S.A. counting all the european jew refugees from the WW2 as immigrants.

Don't know about the Danes though.

There are more muslims than you realise then. You got a huge load of them in the 80s(70s too). Most africans are muslims too btw.
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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 09, 2010 11:00 AM
Edited by Shares at 11:30, 09 Nov 2010.

Yeah, most of the finnish people in Sweden have been here for some time now, but still plenty of finnish, danish and norweigan people come here. As well as plenty of Swedes leaves Sweden for another land of the north.

EDIT: I also checked the time for when swedes count as immigrants when they return to Sweden, and apparantly it's only twlve months -  so if I leave Sweden for twelve months and then returns and stays at least twelve months, then I am considered an immigrant(though my citizenship will still be valid).

EDIT2: Browsed the SCB (Central Bureau of Statistics) and found some interesting facts.
Only 75% of the immigrants with higher education(university collage) are employed. For women that's roughly 65 % and 80 % for men(giving 75% average).

Immigration, 2009, Sweden:
Total: 102 280
Swedes: 17 000, the second biggest group ammounts to 7000 immigrants.
Top ten:
Sweden, Finland, Poland, Denmark, Germany, Thailand, China, Somalia, Iran, Iraq

I haven't checked the stastics this year(2010 isn't available yet, so I am talking about 2009) until now, so Previously Norway was on the top ten for 2008.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 09, 2010 01:16 PM

I can't but wonder at your amount of foreigners. 1,3 million foreigners and around 300000 kids of theirs. You also seem to be getting more new immigrants than more new kids born. That's just crazy.


I wouldn't really count Norwegians, Finns or Danes as real immigrants since they are probably there for a job and will go back in a while. Not to mention Swedes of course.


You just have one crazy country.
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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 09, 2010 01:26 PM

Counting only "real" immigrants, I gues your talking about Right of Asylum, we get about 8000 a year. Those eight thousand are the part of immigration that our SD wants to get out the country. That's what they call "massive immigration". Besides from basing all their politics on thos eight thousand people it would be crazy to be against immigration in Sweden. Without it our population would decline. Not to mention that we, with our current population suffers from a shortage of working power should indicate that we should rather increase our immigration to supply the employers with working power(that and fix the serious, and obvious, flaws with our immigration and working politics).
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 09, 2010 01:47 PM

Naah, those moving there to live out of their own will, not because they're forced to seek asylum, are just as real immigrants. Those who will only work for a few years and move back home aren't.

You aren't really suffering from lack of workforce, you're suffering from wrongly educated and directed workforce.
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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted November 09, 2010 02:19 PM

Right now there's a shortage of both working power AND high unemployment (just shows that there's something wrong with they way Sweden is run right now).
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 09, 2010 02:20 PM

Quote:
Right now there's a shortage of both working power AND high unemployment (just shows that there's something wrong with they way Sweden is run right now).


Quote:
You aren't really suffering from lack of workforce, you're suffering from wrongly educated and directed workforce.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 09, 2010 04:33 PM

This thread doesn't feel like it is about Denmark anymore.

Gogo, make a Sweden thread so I don't need to feel off-topicy.

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