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| Thread: Some thoughts in favor Of God |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 04:35 PM |
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Some thoughts in favor Of God
“Some thoughts in favor of God”
What this post about is not about the usual outpouring I’ve witnessed most of my life when it comes to God. I ask that there be no tirades or slam-dunks from either side of this issue. I very much respect the rights of others to believe or not and would like that sentiment to reign in this thread. However with that said; debate is fine. I am perfectly fine with having any point that I later make… questioned. It should be. I am not God or even God-like and have very few answers. Even fewer that can be ‘expected’ to be accepted by any other.
My first 25 years were about No-God. Since then, it has been that I do believe but I am still just as void of proof as ever. So, why the change?
My change was an “inside job” as all effective change is. But, the source of inside change is usually dependent on some outside source. Correct? Doomforge has a thread on the martial arts. If you want to learn and go in that direction, it can make a change on the inside, to effect the outside. Say you read, become focused on “Defense” and after some practice; you can defend yourself better.
That is sort of like what Faith is for me. However; Faith is a word that carries many definitions in peoples hearts. Not all good and not all bad. We are typically a mixture of both as with any other topic. Politics is another good example of a passion-bed of debate and far too often poor-debate. Stabbing towards others reeking with superiority is hardly debate by my definition. Then there is the problem of “perception”. Age-old fights have a way of turning up age-old wounds. Sometimes intended sometimes not. Anyway, after this effort of clearing the Air: I’ll dive in.
I’ve read that Christ is a myth or story many times. Yet I find it even more difficult to “believe” that 11 of 12 men died for a lie. John was exiled to Patmos. The others were all killed in various ways. In my life, I cannot think of a single person that would do this…not one. 11 of 12? Something happened and it radically changed them all. Consider Paul, persecutor to powerhouse. Travel 11,000-14,000 miles on fabrication? In that age? Stoned, Hungry, Shipwrecked, etc. all for lies?
I used to think that God really messed things up IF he made the world. Look at all the killing etc. Everyone knows the very long list.
But I now think what He made IS perfect. We are perfectly free to make Heaven or Hell. That is called Freedom. What I started to realize when I wanted God to reign in and control, was unintentionally, that I was desiring a robotic world. I don’t want to be on a puppet-string with all good things dictated for me. That sounds much more like a good episode of Star Trek, than a life I want. Could there exist joy without sorrow? Over time what would joy evolve to, without anything to enhance the emotion? I’ve heard it said that” If we were in paradise, all to soon we would take it for granted”
Let me say, even if only for this moment; that if Jesus WAS God incarnate. What did He do that was undesirable? He challenged Religion. Taught Love at all costs and spoke in simple words. He confronted “Self” the almighty, at every turn, in every guise. He gave the ultimate sacrifice and yes if He was God and knowing that he will be OK in the end does appear to take-off some of the shine but he still had to go through the human experiences of “heartbreak“ (left-alone), scourging, (possibly far worse than crucifixion) crucifixion, then death, that remains very, very unappealing to me.
Christ got me off of myself. The change that happened to me was real and I would not go-back for anything. God (by Faith) sits on my internal throne. Not “Man” nor “Man’s Religion” but the words of Christ. Simplicity.
Man can “corrupt” most anything. Look at any or all of Man’s Institutions of Government. I have seen countless posts in many forums on every topic under this sun that whatever the issue; it is not what it was meant to be. So why should the Church be any different? <IMO> It has been one of the worst offenders of all. That Truth is very evident, through History.
I’ve thought about a “Supreme Being” visiting this planet. Could you imagine explaining a microwave to Caesar or Joan of Arc? I think a trait of vastly superior intelligence would be the ‘dumbing down” or simplicity in conveying something important. Christ spoke in the language of his listeners. That to me is one of the most striking things within the New Testament. Making sure they “got-it”. I don’t think it is far-fetched at all that “Love” should be ruling Earth and may be or should be ruling the Universe.
“I desire compassion and not sacrifice” {Matt. 9:13 and 12:7} ref. Hos. 6:6
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"Do your own research"
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1910
Known Hero
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posted November 16, 2010 04:45 PM |
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Edited by 1910 at 16:46, 16 Nov 2010.
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I respect peoples beliefs and that is their own choice. For me, personally, I like to believe in reality i.e what I can see, feel, touch. I don't tend to believe in things that I can't see such as a Spirit or a God if you will. If I see evidence of God and he appears to me then my views will probably change but for the time being, I tend not to care about religion all too much.
I like to make decisions, whether they're right or wrong, based upon what I think is right, not what some book tells me is the right thing to do. I like to live my own life, not how a book tells me my life should be led.
For me, my own personal belief is that religion is for the weak. I think so many people in this day and age are so scared of dying that they like to cling onto the belief that there is an afterlife where they will live again, if you will. As I said, I do respect peoples beliefs but I just disagree with Religion as a whole and tend not to indulge in it too much.
If you must know, I was raised as a Christian so I've read the Bible and understand pretty much what it's about. I just chose, as I got older, to not care and live my life the way that I want without having religion be an influence in my decision making. 
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 16, 2010 04:49 PM |
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This was a refreshing read but sadly it won't be like that for long. Me 2 cents are that faith is one's personal matter and as such I avoid discussing it (at least with strangers).
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none of my business.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 04:57 PM |
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Quote:
I respect peoples beliefs and that is their own choice. For me, personally, I like to believe in reality i.e what I can see, feel, touch. I don't tend to believe in things that I can't see such as a Spirit or a God if you will. If I see evidence of God and he appears to me then my views will probably change but for the time being, I tend not to care about religion all too much.
I like to make decisions, whether they're right or wrong, based upon what I think is right, not what some book tells me is the right thing to do. I like to live my own life, not how a book tells me my life should be led.
For me, my own personal belief is that religion is for the weak. I think so many people in this day and age are so scared of dying that they like to cling onto the belief that there is an afterlife where they will live again, if you will. As I said, I do respect peoples beliefs but I just disagree with Religion as a whole and tend not to indulge in it too much.
If you must know, I was raised as a Christian so I've read the Bible and understand pretty much what it's about. I just chose, as I got older, to not care and live my life the way that I want without having religion be an influence in my decision making.
I respect your views...I have shared them. Where we most differ I think is the value of the "unseen" What I call the "spirit". I belive that man is three-fold. Mental, physical and spiritual. I think Menninger had the correct view of man. Mine is clearly a belief and not a proof.
While I agree that "need" does drive me in Faith isues, I think it also does on all other paths as well.
A favor, I am limited in posting but want to. So can we type slowly
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"Do your own research"
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 16, 2010 05:47 PM |
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I agree, it was a very interesting read, as well as very insightful.
personally, I am an atheist. This is not becuase of the fact I don't like religion. there are some practices that I find sickening and some attitudes that I wish didn't exist within certain religious cults, but as a whole I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
there are alot of religious people that do a great deal of good, but they tend to be on the bases of individuals and individaul organisations, such as the red cross (or the red crescent), the salvation army and Oxfam. Several of my flat mates are religious, and the issues never come up.
I suppose the reason why I am an atheist is becuase of the fact I can't tie myself down to one particular cause, I feel like I must veiw all points of veiw as equal. I want to find out more about lots of religions, having already been to several... holy sights including St peters, St pauls, Ia Sophia, and many others.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 06:19 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 18:23, 16 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
I agree, it was a very interesting read, as well as very insightful.
Thank you for that. I truly desire respectful diaglogue, even with a little humor if that is possible.
Quote:
personally, I am an atheist. This is not becuase of the fact I don't like religion. there are some practices that I find sickening and some attitudes that I wish didn't exist within certain religious cults, but as a whole I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
I can assure you there are "many things" that I feel the same way.
Quote:
there are alot of religious people that do a great deal of good, but they tend to be on the bases of individuals and individaul organisations, such as the red cross (or the red crescent), the salvation army and Oxfam. Several of my flat mates are religious, and the issues never come up.
"Good" is done by many for various reasons.
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I suppose the reason why I am an atheist is becuase of the fact I can't tie myself down to one particular cause, I feel like I must veiw all points of veiw as equal. I want to find out more about lots of religions, having already been to several... holy sights including St peters, St pauls, Ia Sophia, and many others.
A similar 'mindset' is what brought me here. of course I may be wrong but I don't believe so.
I'll share something about a difficulty I ran in to in "real-life". I worked within the agreed-upon methods of "Calibration". now it works because governing bodies state and agree 16 oz. equals a pound.
To calibrate a scale, I then used a weight that was "certified" to be exactly 16 ozs. No problem right? All is well.
But, with my raither strict process of logic, that is most likely a highly debatable statement , I tried to transfer it to a much more critically used function...carbon-dating. Now with my limited understanding I am bringing the same mindset to the table. But there is a glaring problem, to me anyway. To accurately calibrate the device that determines a million passing years would require that a human that was alive back then to "verify" that a tree was indeed on that hill a million years ago, or that he/she was almost stomped on by this specific dinosaur. My point being of course that it "can require" a faith of a sort to just follow and not question other things.
Edit= @ Veco
Sorry I meant to reply earlier: I very highly respect your position. Often it is the most wise. Politics comes rapidly to mind.
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"Do your own research"
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 16, 2010 06:25 PM |
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First, carbon dating cannot be used to determine the precise age of events that occurred more than a few tens of thousands of years ago.
Second, radiological dating methods do not require anything close to the kind of faith required for belief in a divinity.
Third, do we really need another religion thread? We know what it's going to turn into.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
Third, do we really need another religion thread? We know what it's going to turn into.
Sorry. I've shared me. Wasn't trying to beat a dead horse. I've have just read a lot of anti-God in threads that are "intended for other topics" and thought some here might want another view. I desire more respect for other views. Yours too...and it is.
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"Do your own research"
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted November 16, 2010 06:51 PM |
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I think I understand what you mean when you say Jesus challenged religion. I would word it a little differently. Jesus challenged religiosity. An emphasis of outward appearances over inward change. Or religion that is "just for show." As you aptly put it, it is the "inward job" that is the most important. Jesus said to a group of religious leaders (paraphrase), "Yeah, tithing is good, and you should do it but there are weightier matters of the Law such as judgment, mercy, and faith that you have left undone."
Like you, I believe man is a spiritual, mental, and physical. Spirit, soul, and body. Man's spirit and soul can be distinguished between but not separated according to the book of Hebrews.
Yes, Jesus being God living life as a man is indeed a "weighty" thought.
And I agree with you that there are a lot of things some people claim about science being able to prove that are simply not so. However, I am not a young earth creationist.
Yes, there are a lot of "anti-God" topics around here and people who oppose others being able to say the word "God" or reference the Bible. Your topic is just as valid as all other topics here. Those who are opposed to religious threads simply should not participate in this one. Hopefully those hostile to religion won't try to ruin the thread.
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Revelation
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, there are a lot of "anti-God" topics around here and people who oppose others being able to say the word "God" or reference the Bible. Your topic is just as valid as all other topics here. Those who are opposed to religious threads simply should not participate in this one. Hopefully those hostile to religion won't try to ruin the thread.
There was a post that was about government and yet Anti-God came in all over the map? I was offended by one particular statement and did not respond. The intent of the thread had nothing to do with my intial response...so I did not reply. <IMO> The intent of the thread's start...seems unimportant to some. I showed you the same respect in your recent thread that I will show anyone, as you will see if you've not been there yet. I saw that something I thought related was going to head in a vastly different direction than your first post. I error like anyone else. Unfortunately it is becoming more common. I may have to ban myself one day
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"Do your own research"
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 16, 2010 07:17 PM |
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I meant no offense to you, Markkur. Most of the religion threads here have started with good intentions. But unfortunately the members who feel the need to proselytize have without exception turned them into contentious pissing contests. I wager that your thread will be no different.
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Keksimaton
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Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted November 16, 2010 07:37 PM |
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Yeah, or then the thread will get a few more "this'll get ugly" comments before it just kind of dissipates.
Also, rising from the dead sounds a bit exaggerated, it was propably Jesus's twin brother, Bobby of Nazareth.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 16, 2010 07:43 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:52, 16 Nov 2010.
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I meant no offense to you, Markkur. Most of the religion threads here have started with good intentions. But unfortunately the members who feel the need to proselytize have without exception turned them into contentious pissing contests. I wager that your thread will be no different.
I can and do appreciate your sentiment. I do hope you are wrong as I have made every effort to avoid what I will simply call disrepectful posting
This is NOT directed at you. Since I have been here at HC, my intent as been focused on map-making. My thread on that subject should testify to my desires at being at HC. I have had almost zero interaction with the vast knowledge that others possess here that I was initially hoping for...why? I have to "understand this" H6 is on the way and it is very reasonable that two things are a play that are affecting the quailty of my expreince here.
First H6 w/ a new M.E. is on the way and also the fact that most others may be tired of H5 etc. and ready for H6. "Markkur come lately" (and I think that is very true) that sort of thing. But I went ahead with H5 and my thread for the simple reason that H3 even H2 still "thrives". HC has been a great help to me and I just wanted to give-back something. EoS.
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Yeah, or then the thread will get a few more "this'll get ugly" comments before the thread just kind of dissipates.
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I recently posted a topic called "Write" in another forum and it was focused on "family and legacy" when it comes to sharing our thoughts with those we love. It fell like a Led Zepplin.
I'm Ok with whatever happens to my "reach-outs", whatever form they take.
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"Do your own research"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2010 08:27 PM |
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I don't see any arguments in favour of God in this topic.
Personally, I have no problem imagining that 11 of 12 people died for a lie. It's not like it'd be the only time something like that happened. The average person is stupid and easily deluded. Just look at history - the French Revolution, the nationalism of the 18th century, the Bolsheviks, Hitler, etc.
And I see no reason to believe in anything beyond the material world.
Quote:
Let me say, even if only for this moment; that if Jesus WAS God incarnate. What did He do that was undesirable?
Taught unconditional love for your fellow man. Preached against divorce. Taught to "turn the other cheek". Taught to "love your enemies". Etc.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 17, 2010 09:21 AM |
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You have shared you, now I will share why I am no longer a Christian.
Around 10 or 11 years old, I started going to church. I was the only one in my family, at least at first, to do so. Later I was joined by my brother, mother, and father..but that is another story.
The spirit filled me, and I was called the 'Little Preacher' because the sermons I was allowed to give (even at that young age) MOVED people. I never had anything planned when I got up to preach, the words just flowed from me, and people responded. I questioned everything, and wouldn't be satisfied with a 'because this verse says so' answer..but that was encouraged so things were good .. for a time.
At the time I was confused about something, much like a few people here on the forums  . I couldn't separate the people from the religion. I didn't yet understand that people are flawed, and that they can and will twist ANYTHING to further their agenda.
One of the people in my church..who everybody lovingly called 'Brother Joe' started to have issues with Alcoholism. He left the church for awhile, and lost just about everything. His wife left him, taking the children, he lost his house .. and such.
After cleaning himself up somewhat, and fighting to stay sober, he returned to the church. Everybody turned their back on him. When he needed people the most. I was taught that you never turn your back on somebody..and my faith was shaken to its core.
Left the church, even got into the occult for a bit. Troubled youth, all that. Finally though, do to other issues I started researching meditation..and with that led to me studying other religions.
It took awhile, but it finally dawned on me. No religion has successfully explain WHY their religion is 'better' then any other. Without using things like 'this verse, or this person (etc) told me so'.
Taking my personal experiences..I have come to the conclusion that 1) There is SOMETHING out there. What? I don't have a clue. Since I have seen spirits, had my experiences where 'something' was guiding what I was saying or doing, and had other experiences that was the only conclusion I could reach.
I don't fear death, I do not fear what 'punishment' or expect some 'reward' on the other side. My belief is not fear based, but just what I have come to conclude.
The problem with Christianity is not the religion. It is the 'bible thumpers' the ones that 'attack' or 'defend' (depending who you ask) themselves against the naysayers so ardently that they come across as jerks and idiots. Giving people a very negative view of Christianity. The ones who can not separate the 'belief' or 'idea' from the person.
The ones who do not understand that anger only begets more anger. That the true lesson of Christianity is not about forcing everybody to think or believe your way, but peace and acceptance for ALL.
"Judge not least ye be judged, and found wanting."
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Message received.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted November 17, 2010 09:52 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 09:57, 17 Nov 2010.
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@ MS...
Quote:
And I see no reason to believe in anything beyond the material world.
Is not your statement here...conditional? I can walk out my front door and gaze up at the stars. I can only see the nearest and infinity is behind those. Does that mean since Markkur can only see those that twinkle nothing exists behind? Going the other way, I cannot see a cell with my own eyes. Near at hand is no proof either.
Quote:
Let me say, even if only for this moment; that if Jesus WAS God incarnate. What did He do that was undesirable?
Taught unconditional love for your fellow man. Preached against divorce. Taught to "turn the other cheek". Taught to "love your enemies". Etc.
You are probably quite normal...healthy. But I want no reflection of your thought ruling me. It already has too much. "A Way out" is what His teachings taught. That is something man cares little to do by "instinct". "Revenge is a dish best served cold."
Btw, "It's the following verse "the Shirt and Coat" that really teaches the finer lesson over "turn the other cheek". In the latter you resist, in the former you go a step further with a strong
refusal to internalize the offense and that "Way out" is easier seen...hopefully
@mytical
A very fine post. I will respond to it at length a little later. For what it is worth, (not much) my thoughts are more about unity and shared experience. I have been greatly dismayed by my "Church-experience" , I need nothing from the world in general to be in consternation.
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"Do your own research"
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2010 10:11 AM |
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Quote:
I can walk out my front door and gaze up at the stars. I can only see the nearest and infinity is behind those. Does that mean since Markkur can only see those that twinkle nothing exists behind? Going the other way, I cannot see a cell with my own eyes. Near at hand is no proof either.
I didn't say anything about whether you could easily observe these things. I said that I see no reason to believe in anything beyond the material world - and the things you mentioned are part of it. The fact is that you can observe them if you expend the resources and/or effort.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 17, 2010 10:48 AM |
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However Mvass, that was not always the case. Does that mean that something only starts to exist from the moment it can be observed? That the past that wasn't recorded doesn't exist? Never happened? Hey, I wasn't around to witness or observe the American Revolution, so it never happened. Right? Just some fiction that somebody created, I mean I can't observe it, ever...so it doesn't exist. .
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Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2010 10:55 AM |
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I'm not much of a fan of when people play Devil's Advocate.
The answer to that is rather obvious - its effects can still be observed today. It's the most plausible explanation for the way things are now (including the existence of past documents talking about it).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 17, 2010 11:12 AM |
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Wasn't meant as a Devil's Advocate post. I just can not wrap my head around saying something doesn't exist because somebody can't observe it. While we can see the light of stars, we can not see the planets that might be around them (besides the one around our sun)..for the most part..doesn't mean they are not there.
We as humans know so little about everything. IF the time line of the universe is accurate, we've been around the cosmic equivalent of a lot LESS then a second. There is a LOT of things we have yet to experience, see, feel, hear...etc. To write those things off as non existent just seems the height of hubris on the part of the human race.
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Message received.
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