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Heroes Community > MapHaven Guild > Thread: H5-Map-Maker-Blues
Thread: H5-Map-Maker-Blues This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 23, 2010 06:01 PM

H5-Map-Maker-Blues

I came here to HC thinking that I would find a lot of activity in H5 map-making but my experience here has been different.

What led me to post about this is seeing this; A 'scripter offering to script' and few takers? What!?

So what's the deal? Is H5 M.E. that bad that there are only a few diehards willing to mess with it? Is it that H6 is on the way and who cares about H5? If it were not for the vitality of H3WoG I probably wouldn't even ask this stuff.

I don't know, but this is a Global community and I'm surpised at the lack of campaign-making , teamwork on maps, etc.

Yup, I got dem "H5 map maker blues"  
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El_Chita
El_Chita


Known Hero
Actually, my name is El Chita
posted November 23, 2010 07:19 PM

I think you got the point. Many mappers wait for H6, since Ubi announced that the editor may be released even before the game. Most active mappers only announce their new maps in their homecountry forums (I just didn't know how to call that^^), so most of their maps won't be released on AoH. And, of course, Heroes V is the Heroes game with the worst possibility to mod.

And the few mappers left, you and me, are alone

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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 23, 2010 08:22 PM

I can echo your sentiments exactly Markkur. Imagine my surprise when I post two maps at the same time for review and critiquing. The first one a H5 Multi player map and the second one a H3 single player map. I have only received comments and interest in the H3 map, it's almost as if everyone has either moved on or is stuck in the past wearing rose coloured glasses. Even though IMO my H5 map is the more interesting of the pair.

So count me in as the third map maker left on these forums.

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markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 24, 2010 01:01 AM
Edited by markkur at 14:40, 24 Nov 2010.

Quote:
I think you got the point. Many mappers wait for H6, since Ubi announced that the editor may be released even before the game. Most active mappers only announce their new maps in their homecountry forums (I just didn't know how to call that^^), so most of their maps won't be released on AoH. And, of course, Heroes V is the Heroes game with the worst possibility to mod.

And the few mappers left, you and me, are alone


Well I understand that but shoot that's what, March? Now I'm wondering how much time does "released before" mean? 60 days, Jan?
Hadn't thought about the homecountry forums but even with that explantion, still seems there should be a lot more mapping. I think the difficulty of the Editor was a huge setback and we are walking in the ruins of that under-sight. I think H6 will correct this.

As for the last H5 mappers (see below)

@Gibblets

Quote:
I can echo your sentiments exactly Markkur. Imagine my surprise when I post two maps at the same time for review and critiquing. The first one a H5 Multi player map and the second one a H3 single player map. I have only received comments and interest in the H3 map, it's almost as if everyone has either moved on or is stuck in the past wearing rose coloured glasses. Even though IMO my H5 map is the more interesting of the pair.


I know, it's like we have the flu. I agree with you. I loved H3. Hell, like everyone else I've played it for over 10 years and still will, but I'm not scrapping the Earth-making-powers of the Editor in H5...<imo>it's too good. Maybe that's the deal, we are more drawn to the nature-map-surface-possibilities? (for lack of a better way to say it)

I thought you had testers for the H5-map No?

Anyway, I 'm glad you guys and NSlo are here or this would be a real drag then.

Quote:

EC=And the few mappers left, you and me, are alone
G= count me in as the third map maker left on these forums.


"El Quatro Amigos del H-Cinco" (NaadirSlo's on board too)


 
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 24, 2010 06:34 AM
Edited by Gibblets at 08:10, 24 Nov 2010.

I did say I played it with testers 5 times, however my "testers" were friends who occasionally play video games. After receiving the help/advice from The Pacifist for my H3 map I can no longer say with confidence that my H5 map is properly tested. I've now seen a great tester which has elevated my game more.


As for the H5 editor, IMO it's like wrestling an Octopus, but once you subdue it you have access to an exponentially increasing G.E.C.K. (little Fallout reference for everyone) That editor has allowed my attention to minute detail and unrelenting pursuit of organic looking eye candy to multiply tenfold. (which has really helped the few H3 maps I still have left over in my collection) And it's forced me to learn some scripting, which is a great thing. Having said all that, and aside from the few things it's lacking from H3 editor *cough* undo function *cough* It's a far superior tool for letting ones imagination run wild.

I to think the H6 editor will strike the balance between 3&5 and offer a powerful yet streamlined tool. Not to jump ship but hopefully it will be closer to a Blizzard map editor.  

EDIT:  BTW Markkur, I want to thank you for your other threads about H5 map editor tips. I've found them very useful

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 24, 2010 02:32 PM
Edited by markkur at 14:43, 24 Nov 2010.

Quote:
After receiving the help/advice from The Pacifist for my H3 map I can no longer say with confidence that my H5 map is properly tested. I've now seen a great tester which has elevated my game more.


Yaahhhh, that was an eye-opener for me too, in some ways. What I mean is; I used to be an auditor in RL. Inspection was my life for a long time, long enough to get the moniker Eagle-eye. I am very thorough at checking my maps. i.e When I found at the starting of a map, that a gold mine in the underground and a Dwarven-mine belonged to player one and should not; after that it became a part of my inspection process, even to the point of reviewing all Ob-Prop-owner-lines on the map no matter how many objects are on the map or how confident I was that they were "already correct". I'm very glad you brought this topic up. I need to add something to the Beginner's guide...will the thing EVER end?

Back to the testing thing. With inspection I found that sometimes a noob (like a janitor in a complicated production environment) would see something that the experts walked right by. So <imo> a diverse group is desirable and never only one pair of eyes like mine, no matter how good I may be. I'm sure you'll agree; it's just too much to ask from one-pair-of eyes. Every one of "US" brings some sort of strength to the table. That's why I was sort of 'd to see little teamwork on things past the "guides". btw, El_Chita "greatly improved" mine, just for this reason.

I'm sure that a lot of our gripes is due to "Time". The Editor was too hard so the "Pool" (I'm guessing all the way)left for us to interact, started-out small and the ones that could have been here yet, are just boppin-in-now, have little established circles, or have moved-on. My "timing" never has been very good.  


Quote:
As for the H5 editor, IMO it's like wrestling an Octopus, but once you subdue it you have access to an exponentially increasing G.E.C.K. (little Fallout reference for everyone) That editor has allowed my attention to minute detail and unrelenting pursuit of organic looking eye candy to multiply tenfold. (which has really helped the few H3 maps I still have left over in my collection) And it's forced me to learn some scripting, which is a great thing. Having said all that, and aside from the few things it's lacking from H3 editor *cough* undo function *cough* It's a far superior tool for letting ones imagination run wild.


Glad you explained GECK...geek came quite naturally to me. Good point about the EyeCandy. Yup, No undo?=serious MF. I think the most annoying thing to me is having to "reset" selections in the tool. "No, I don't want to only put this one object on the map forever" and then because of having to reset by clicking back and forth between 'objects'&'tiles' (my work-around); then having-to "undo" because of hitting the "Raise" button instead of the grass button when you clicked back on grass...thinking "that's safe" Funny how we can become pretty good with crazy stuff after a time of using. Wild imagination? =

Quote:
I to think the H6 editor will strike the balance between 3&5 and offer a powerful yet streamlined tool. Not to jump ship but hopefully it will be closer to a Blizzard map editor.


Not abandoning a thing to me. I think the ref. a timesaver in communicating in an unknown language...like programming I may not know what I am asking for, but Blackhole's guys/gals will.  

Quote:
EDIT:  BTW Markkur, I want to thank you for your other threads about H5 map editor tips. I've found them very useful


Thanks Gibblets. I know I don't have to tell you why I took the time to do it. After the awesome tools of the H3 editor, taking the first step with the vers.5 was indeed like; "I have two arms and this damn thing has eight

Edit= Sorry Gib about the missing L a few times. How I hate typing...arrrrrgghhh.

Create a great map/day. Btw, No comment on "The Four Friends of H5"?
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 26, 2010 06:30 AM

I can sympathize with you about having bad timing. Not even a year ago I was still making maps for H3. Only this year moving into the 2008's by learning the H5 editor which greeted me with a chair shot of epic proportions. I had just finished my first map which was about the Orcs vs Wizard magic duel and I had finished it and was 3/4 of the way through playing it for the first time with my significant other and the save had become unplayable within the ToE game and when I tried to load it up and see what had happened in the editor all of the terrain had disappeared, just showing the sky image instead. And re-doing the terrain only caused the editor to crash.+ So like a sucker for punishment or a map making trooper extraordinaire I started over with a new concept and crazy ambitions to make an 8 player MP map with completely unique areas and I made it Extra Large... which I soon found IS an accurate description (unlike H3) of the amount of tiles that I would need to give loving attention to.

Isn't that a real piss off, having to switch back and forth between the doodad tab and terrain one just to place a separate unique object... makes you wonder if anyone actually used this program before releasing it to us. How about this annoying 'bug' doing some work with the rivers tab, specifically raising them and then switching to a different texture and it's on SOFT and it spams it everywhere, ruining all the precise work I just did...

Why don't the "four friends of H5" collaborate on something What are you currently working on Markkur It seems to me we would have enough time to make something great for H5 before H6 comes out.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted November 26, 2010 06:44 AM

Why would anyone spend months to make a gigantic and epic map just to find that he can't save or load it?
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Markkur
Markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 26, 2010 02:34 PM
Edited by Markkur at 14:38, 26 Nov 2010.

Quote:
makes you wonder if anyone actually used this program before releasing it to us.


Guessing but since it was a development "team" I can only assume they have some process where people are focused on a task or a few and this would not have popped up on their radar screen, since whenever a mapper uses it, they are holding all 8-legs

Quote:
How about this annoying 'bug' doing some work with the rivers tab, specifically raising them and then switching to a different texture and it's on SOFT and it spams it everywhere, ruining all the precise work I just did...


TG I've not seen that, but I've had strange things happen. i.e. "Player zero has no town" or this jewel; "Getting a Win-security-update and coming back to the editor, loading a map that I had worked on but this time it is missing the last-session's extensive changes. I have zero-understanding how Win7 could affect the programs inner-working, but it did, other than some security vulnerable was overlapping into the program? Who knows, I never will.

One thing that I learned to do was eliminating the mods. I had loaded lots of maps w/o thinking about the direct impact on the editor program. I.e., I found, Modified elementals that I had seen in a map had become "default" in the Editor. I read enough to see that some Mods will clash and no one person can possibly know all of that list, hence I see problem-Qs go unanswered and I think it is largely do to they are often "unique-problems" because of parameter-varitions between mappers. OS, Processor, ME vers. (much of the time variables are not disclosed) etc. So while the game-play issues were heavily targeted as they should be I think the Editor issues were not easy to get down-pat, far from it. Anyway, I took mine back to "virgin ToE3.1" and have only my maps in the Editor (both folders) and introduce others-maps, one at a time just like it is advised for map-play. Heck it was a couple of years before I read that H5 should be babied in playing "one map at a time", so that meant if I wanted to play a "Second map in the same session? Close the game and restart the next game/map. Tell me that gameplay-work-around is known by all...even now.

A new Movie remake? "Clash of the Titanic Mods"

Quote:
Why don't the "four friends of H5" collaborate on something What are you currently working on Markkur It seems to me we would have enough time to make something great for H5 before H6 comes out.


Good idea, Even I can juggle two balls So what if we are still at it when H6 comes out? we can still finish the thing. I am doing some grunt-work for our 4th horseman. I'll look around for some ideas/inspiration (I've got plenty of time)as a genesis and we can go from there. At last word, El_Chita is very busy it seems, I'll ask NaadirSlo today. It could go something like this; You and I on the map and You and He on the scripts. Naadir and I leading on our part and you, Project-lead because of your double-up-status. Thanks for volunteering btw.

@Sal. I know it sounds crazy and IS crazy but for me it's the challenge I guess, won't take No for an answer, etc.. There seems to be work-arounds but I have to be willing to dig for them. Right now I am having no problems at all and I am running Win7 of all things, but I did pay a price to get this far.
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 27, 2010 03:32 AM

I'm not to certain about having dual roles, even though each role would carry less of a load. I'm just not really confident in my scripting abilities. However don't count this as a 'No Thanks', I'm just laying out my disclaimer before I accept another challenge that may put me in over my head.

I've actually had an idea for a heavily water based MP map floating (pun intended) around in my head for awhile now. I wanted it to change the standard gameplay to something similar to control points. Let's use the resource silos within every town as a replacement for mines. So there would be 8 towns around the map on Islands of their own, 2 of each resource of Sulfur, Mercury, Crystal, Gems. So it would be one town of alignment on the map to prevent unbalancing and promote variety.

Academy-Gems
Sylvan-"
Dungeon-Sulfur
Inferno-"
Fortress-Crystal
Castle-"
Necros-Mercury
Barbarians-"

The only buildings within them would be a few dwellings (in and around the town) for garrison purposes, the castle walls, resource silo, tavern, shipyard and Village hall to pay for garrison troops. Also they could be the only ship yards in the game, thereby increasing their strategic advantage. I know I could make all 8 of those Islands look and play like fortresses.

For alternative means of resources we could have lots of small islands with elemental stockpiles, Vault of Mages, etc, etc. Hopefully we could also incorporate an aggressive portal system between some of the Islands.

Every player would have a Sawmill(maybe two depending on balance),  Ore pit, Gold Mine, and a fully functional town in their respective starting areas.

Well that's all I can think of for now on that topic.


So, what got you into map making Markkur?

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 27, 2010 02:33 PM

Quote:
I'm not to certain about having dual roles, even though each role would carry less of a load. I'm just not really confident in my scripting abilities. However don't count this as a 'No Thanks', I'm just laying out my disclaimer before I accept another challenge that may put me in over my head.


I asked NaadirSlo and he does want the scripting and I like the making the world and you do both. We're all rookies so let's just have some fun together. You are in a good spot and can do both...whatever you want

Quote:
I've actually had an idea for a heavily water based MP map floating (pun intended) around in my head for awhile now.


Hmmm, this sounds sorta hmmmm exactly like something a project-lead would say  Pun=

I copied and saved the idea. Btw, I started with #5 last night, and thought; wonder if there are any he's not played? I started to open first (it's very hard to eradicate an inspector)and play later but didn't want to ruin the map, so it will be a little while.


Quote:
So, what got you into map making Markkur?


WC-One and Age of Kings/Empires in tandem, set-me-up to be blown away by H3. Nowadays mapmaking is just as important to me in gaming as gameplay. Bet you'd never guess that.

And you?
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 27, 2010 03:16 PM
Edited by Gibblets at 15:18, 27 Nov 2010.

Just a quick reply before the I head to work, I or someone else (who I watched play) have played through each team twice.

Which team are you starting with?
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If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 27, 2010 05:47 PM

Quote:
Which team are you starting with?


5. Looks like I've started with luck. Teal's Necro.
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 28, 2010 04:08 AM

Teals Necro? correct me if I'm wrong (and this is my map) or misunderstanding your last comment but Teal is supposed to be a computer team.... If you started with 3 towns you are playing as a computer team... Teal and Yellow are the comp opponents. So are you playing as Orange? Funny I pegged you as either a Light/Dark elf player or Necro. (just guessing since you have a brain for attention to detail)I have found the best experience is on Hard or above for this particular map.

Okay I'll take on the role as Project Lead and try to remember I have no idea quite what that is. However I'm willing to be trained on the job.


What got me into mapping was the Red Alert Map Editor for many years, which progressed to the H3 editor and now H5 with a dash of C&C3. I'm still too intimidated to touch the Unreal 3 Editor yet. However what keeps me doing it is the combination of listening to music and creating, it's very meditative/creatively fulfilling for me. I agree with you about it being as important as the actual game itself.

How was the WC one editor? I never had the game to play, but from what I do remember both teams were carbon copies of each other with different skins
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If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 28, 2010 03:38 PM

Quote:
Teals Necro? correct me if I'm wrong (and this is my map) or misunderstanding your last comment but Teal is supposed to be a computer team.... If you started with 3 towns you are playing as a computer team... Teal and Yellow are the comp opponents. So are you playing as Orange?


Hmmm. Well I did start as Necro, I am orange/#5player and have one town. I am starting week3? I have been doing the usual bit. Have wood and ore, 2 Skeleton dwellings & 1 zombie. Visited 1 knowledge, and school of magic. Cleaned all the area that I can reach of the gimmes (plenty) and fought some level2s twice? for resources.

I saw that Teal was I.A. at loading. I've seen only Teal and it was Voltan? and with, I think, a necro army. I know I have an outpost blocking me from moving out. I know I can't strike him but also know that outpost may block something else.

Quote:
Funny I pegged you as either a Light/Dark elf player or Necro. (just guessing since you have a brain for attention to detail)I have found the best experience is on Hard or above for this particular map.


Looks like you were spot-on. "Detail" nice word for "curse-on-fun" Now you tell me. I always work on maps at Normal settings and try to make them a challenge. It's sort of like this with me (with settings)

I had an old-timer tell me this about "driving in Golf" "The young-ones come to the course with bags of clubs and irons and try to learn them all. "In driving, use 1 wood and master it". It was only then that I noticed he carried 3 clubs. Driver, 7-iron and a putter. Just an anecdote for your visit.

Quote:
Okay I'll take on the role as Project Lead and try to remember I have no idea quite what that is. However I'm willing to be trained on the job.


Excellent choice...when we quit-learning we begin to die. Sorry, I'm in one of thse moods this morning. A cross between far-wisdom and near-crazy.

Quote:
However what keeps me doing it is the combination of listening to music and creating, it's very meditative/creatively fulfilling for me. I agree with you about it being as important as the actual game itself.


With an approach like yours, how could it be anything other than good medicine? We have a lot in common. Although, my formula like yours was used in pencil drawing or other art under the themes of H3. I need to add this to mapping too. Good idea.  


How was the WC one editor? I never had the game to play, but from what I do remember both teams were carbon copies of each other with different skins


My memory is very foggy with WC1. Primitive I'm sure. But since it was the first I ever used...at the time it seemed pure magic. The game was an RTS so I do remember the map-maker was not doing much more than...the starting conditions. which was a BIG thing back then.
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El_Chita
El_Chita


Known Hero
Actually, my name is El Chita
posted November 28, 2010 04:28 PM

I think I will publish a tutorial until christmas in which I'll tell all my knowledge.
I make this step cuz I don't know if I will ever get ready with my map.

Good Luck to you guys

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 28, 2010 04:43 PM

Quote:
I think I will publish a tutorial until christmas in which I'll tell all my knowledge.


About time

Quote:
I make this step cuz I don't know if I will ever get ready with my map.


What's the hold-up?

Quote:
Good Luck to you guys


Back-atcha...ten-fold
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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 28, 2010 09:55 PM

Everything is going as expected for you so far, FYI plan for a High level hero on this map. "Block something else" Is a good description for their function, especially on Hard or Heroic Difficulty.

In regards to the difficulty level, I read in the fan manual that on Normal difficulty The AI will not cast spells higher than level 3, and will move straight towards the enemy units, targeting melee units, flyers and shooters/casters in this order.
The AI builds only every second day. It hires 1+Controlled_Towns
heroes, with a maximum of 8. It only gives a moderate importance to
towns.

On Hard The AI has no spell restriction and may cast area of effect spells between units. It moves its stacks depending on the positions on the enemy units, avoiding to be reached first, and targets flyers, shooters/casters and melee units in this order.
The AI builds every day if possible. It hires 2+Controlled_Towns heroes, with a maximum of 14. It gives a higher importance to towns, is more aggressive towards human players than other computer players, and flees more easily than in Normal difficulty.

The AI is nerfed and is not a real test of how balanced the map is. And considering the AI is in charge of 3 towns from the start it needs to be unrestricted in it's behaviours


That golfing advice makes complete sense to me. I always say that technology now has so many functions that it is now functionless. I could point your attention to a Modest Mouse song - Missed the Boat @3:50 the Lyrics "We owned all the tools ourselves, without the skills to make a shelf with them. Oh, what useless tools ourselves."
There seems to be an obsession with having access to as much as possible at the cost of even a modicum of mastery over what we already possess. I guess this could all be a side effect of having many, intellectually stimulating conversations and some very insightful musical/comedy/academia influences.

You don't have to apologize for "far-wisdom" comments to me. In fact I remember saying something very close to that to my sister a few months ago. I make them daily as a matter of course in my conversations.
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If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 29, 2010 04:57 AM

Quote:
Everything is going as expected for you so far, FYI plan for a High level hero on this map. "Block something else" Is a good description for their function, especially on Hard or Heroic Difficulty.


Well then thanks for the heads-up sorta

Quote:
In regards to the difficulty level, I read in the fan manual...


How in the hell did I miss all that!? Good grief.
Wonder where the fan's got their info? And why is it not complete? As in the 5 traits the factions may be if on A. I. With two names like 'Warrior' and 'Victum' I doubt it good to be ignorant of the differences. I also have to wonder how it affects the "actions" you relayed to me.

I guess I learned to work-around the lower spell thing by making the A.I. have more powerful armies than I own. so winning was faaaar from easy. Hmmm...thinking...Ok than that is the reason for level 1 and 2 A.I. magic-guilds until much later in the game. They only build them after all else. You know, I'm glad for two reasons. One, I love making the maps themselves more than all else and have not released a one to the public...yet. Secondly, I have been making good strides lately in design quality, with 'testing' the new territory so you're right on time and have this old Wizards thanks.

As far as the game, I'll restart. it's still early. I had thought about playing all factions in hot-seat. That is something I do with mine to verfy there is no snags, like something unreachable or an object already owned that should not be etc. Sounds like the map is old enough there is no need for me to do that but is there a preferred faction you would have me test?

Quote:
I guess this could all be a side effect of having many, intellectually stimulating conversations and some very insightful musical/comedy/academia influences.


"Jack of all trades and master of none" works fine for a young man but it is good to narrow the field of view, later on in life. I was always good with my hands and head and that led to pretty good at too much stuff. So, I gotta say I prefer my style these days...a few targets and lotsa passion. The influences are spot-on again.
I've been to many places on God's green earth and it's not the sites or tourist traps that I remember most. My best memories are table-talks in out-of-the-way places in foreign lands talking to the locals. I've a challenge for you. No matter your stance on JRRT and His Rings...read his essay "On Fairy Stories"...then pass it on.

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You don't have to apologize for "far-wisdom" comments to me. In fact I remember saying something very close to that to my sister a few months ago. I make them daily as a matter of course in my conversations.


What a refreshing mind you have to bump into at HoMM. <IMO> The world's thinking is too often in the gutter and too seldom comes up for air. When  it does speak? It reeks of arrogance and assumed wisdom or knowledge and all the while lips are moving; the brain is not listening. There is no Train, no tracks are left, no way-sides, they've already "arrived." Tsk Tsk...what a waste.
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"Do your own research"

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Gibblets
Gibblets


Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
posted November 29, 2010 07:57 AM

Yeah... I was really mystified by the lack of information on A.I. behaviour schemes. (Once I was done laughing my ass off at "Victim" personality) However I think I remember reading a few posts on the subject and it's not something that can be edited or quantified so your guess is as good as mine.

Well, my favourite factions to play right now are Inferno and Fortress. But no I have don't have a preferred faction for you to play. They should all be balanced and equal at this point.

I will certainly read "On Fairy Stories", can I access it online? or is it available at a Library?. I just have to get through The Chomsky Reader first. BTW I have nothing against JRRT, I respect everything he's done and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he come up with a few languages of his own? Well, if you're issuing challenges, read The Manufacture of Consent, an essay written in 1984 by Noam Chomsky. If you can't find that, listen/watch to either Jammin' in New York or It's Bad For Ya by George Carlin. Hell or anything Bill Hicks is just as good.

I couldn't agree more about what are the most memorable/rewarding places and experiences. Hell, just this year I went on a Bicycle trip from the middle of British Columbia down to Vancouver.(Yep I'm a Canuck, eh) Took me and my friend 9 days to get there, and was the third trip we've done together. Such a great thing to do for ones mind, and sure helps to keep my third eye clean. Some of the best conversations I've had are from meeting people on the side of the road during a break or staying the night at a campsite.(Except for all the RVers who claim to be 'camping' staying shut in their apartments on wheels with a generator abomination running all night to have T.V. and Vacuums. VAAAAACCCCUUUUUUUUMMMMMS!!!! out camping... May)


("There is no Train, no tracks are left, no way-sides, they've already "arrived." Tsk Tsk...what a waste.")

What an interesting statement. I would like to get some clarification on a few things before I can respond to that, so I can be sure we are talking about the same things. What do you mean by Train, no tracks, no way-sides. And when you say they've arrived do you mean that they all know the "truth" and therefore have shut their analytical selves down. Just regurgitating the States Doctrine because it was reinforced by T.V. and "The News". I should stop here before I cross the line of enlightening conversation and step into the depressing.



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