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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Free will vs 'Fate'
Thread: Free will vs 'Fate' This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV
mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 07:57 AM

Maybe he stopped pretending to look.
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Elodin
Elodin


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Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted December 13, 2010 02:00 PM

Quote:
Ok, now it has been a long time since I studied the bible, and I have forgotten a lot of what I once knew.  However, if I remember correctly, there is something in the bible that points to the fact that God does not indeed know everything.

After Even and Adam eat the apple, and hide..god goes to search for them (ie if he is searching he doesn't know where they are..therefore he does not know everything).  When they are found, but remain as hidden as possible God asks them why (again..if he knew everything, he would not have to ask).


God saying "Where are you" to Adam is not God trying to find out where Adam is hiding but God "seeking the lost." God trying to get Adam to think about what he had done and take responsibility for his actions and confess his sin.

The opportunity for repentance was given but instead Adam blamed God for his sin by saying (paraphrase) "You gave me the woman and the woman gave me of the tree to eat."

Quote:
knowledge is a result thus it is based on time, you can only know what already happened. to know the future, it must have already happened. to know all possible outcomes, you need to be out of time. but since you are out of time, then it's not knowledge, it's simple observation. we enjoy free will, and the entity simply observe all we do. that entity has no knowledge and can't gather knowledge in any way.


You can't know the future. That does not mean the future can't be known. God exists at every point in the space time continuim as well as everywhere else. No, the future does not have to have already happened for it to be known by such a being. And his knowledge of what you will do does  not mean that you did not make the decisions to do what you did.

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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 05:51 PM

my point is that it isn't knowledge but simply observation. he doesn't know all, he just sees all. and in that sense, it doesn't contradict the idea of free will.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 06:18 PM

How would someone observe something that hasn't happened yet?

The concept of "seeing" the future is based on the assumption that there, sometime, IS a future. As IS mind you a past. You know, the concept of time travel with all those contradictions that result from it. *I* know only the PRESENT. The past is past and has no reality anymore, and the future hasn't happened yet and is only potential.

Now, IF there were INDEED all times somehow EXISTING in a "river of time" or whatever, my future was determined, if there was only ONE future. The whole future was determined.

If there was more than one future, though, you might see all those infinite futures, but you wouldn't know which one would actually come to pass.

Howeer, whether it's observation or knowledge, it doesn't matter if there is ONE COMPLETE HISTORY, because that's what a definite and determied single future is from a certain point of view: HISTORY.

And in that case, I repeat, we just follow the way the train takes without ANY chance to change the direction it's heading. It happened already, we just don't know it.

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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 06:40 PM

but by talking about time travel, you are supposing god is caught in the process of time. and what if he was out of time?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted December 13, 2010 06:56 PM

Huh?

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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 07:18 PM

it certainly is hard to reason that way, since it is all based on speculations.

as long as there is for you a past and a future (even if your past is the future of other people or the contrary) you are still caught in the process of time.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 13, 2010 07:45 PM

I'm not caught in any process of time - I'm living, as everyone else in the present.
If God can somehow live through the whole eternity in a second and then gets back to the start to relive it all, having already seen the movie, it's STILL just that: a movie. A re-run.

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Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted December 13, 2010 08:11 PM

Quote:
I'm not caught in any process of time - I'm living, as everyone else in the present.
If God can somehow live through the whole eternity in a second and then gets back to the start to relive it all, having already seen the movie, it's STILL just that: a movie. A re-run.


Yes, you are caught in a process of time. You can't see the past. You can't see the future. You can only see the present moment. The present moment is where you make your decisions. You determine your actions. God does not determine your actions. The tooth fairy does not determine your actions. You decide. You do, regardless of who knows what about your actions.

Saying "Nuh-uh, I can't know the future so God can't either" it is illogical.

Oh, God does not live through eternity then go back to the beginning like he is watching a movie like you continually insist. God exists everywhere throughout the space time continuim. God is "I AM." God needs no rewind button. He lives from everlasting to everlasting.

It is very silly to think that that the God who exists independently of the apace-time continuim (he created it) is subject to it like you are. Such a concept of God would be too human-like, too frail and too limited to be the God who created all things out of nothing.

Anyways, it is you who decide how to act. You alone. God knowing your actions does not dictate your actions. You dictate your own actions. You are free to do things God says not to do. You are free to not do things God says to do. That is free will.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 14, 2010 07:14 AM

So..only your interpretation of what it says counts?  Cause that is absolutely not what...

8 ¶ And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, 2 Cor. 11.3 and I did eat.

says to me.
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Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted December 14, 2010 02:56 PM
Edited by Elodin at 14:59, 14 Dec 2010.

Yes, my interpretation is correct because it is in accordance to the entire teaching of the Bible.

If you chose only to see the surface words and insist that the passage in Genesis was teaching that that the God who created all things does not have a clue where anyone is, be my guest. But that interpretation does not agree with what the Bible teaches and ignores how questions are used in the rest of the book of Genesis and the rest of the Bible.

When you read a book you have to consider the entire content of the book or you will misinterpret stuff.

Questions are asked for a variety of purposes even *gasp* outside the Bible. Questions can be used to make statements. As a parent I have asked questions of my children that I already knew the answer to to try to get them confess to some wrong-doing

You find God employing this same method to try to get people to think about what they have done and repent in various places in the Bible. For example he asks Cain where his brother is after Cain murders him. Even before Cain's murder of Able he asked questions to try to get Cain to see what was happening to him and to warn him that sin was ready to devour him if he did not do something.

Gen 4: 6 (NIV) Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

And after the murder God asked the question and it is clear he already knows the answer. The question was an attempt to reach out to Cain and get him to see what evil he had done and to get him to repent of it.

10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ”

In Job 38:4 God asks, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” God was not seeking information about where Job was when he created the earth.

We see Jesus using questions for other than information gathering too. For instance he asked whose face was on a coin. Jesus was not blind or ignorant of the image on the coin. The question was asked to drive a point home. (Matthew 22:15-22) Likewise there is an instance where Jesus was surrounded by people and he said "who touched me" when he was being touched by numerous people. He was trying to get the woman who had faith in who he was to come forward and confess her faith and the miracle that she had received in response to her faith. She did. (Luke8:45)   The parallel passage in Mark makes it plain that Jesus knew what woman had touched him in faith. ( Mark 5:32)

So we see clear instances in the Bible where God uses questions not to obtain information but to get people to think about what they have done, what it means, and to respond to God.

In light of the rest of the Bible the passage in Genesis can only be interpreted in this manner.

Below are some outright clear statements that God is all-knowing, including knowing the future and the thoughts and intents of an individual.

1Jn 3:20  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Act 15:18  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psa 147:5  Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Isa 42:9  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Job 37:16  Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

1Sa 16:7  But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 15, 2010 08:09 AM

And that is when I bow out.  Without meaning offense this statement "my interpretation is correct" is the end of any possible meaningful discussion.
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