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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 06, 2013 02:53 PM |
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Not sure what you're on about 9 points is basically 1/5 of the way to your promo per win. And you won a 4v5. No reason to be glum, good for you.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 07, 2013 12:08 PM |
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Void staff is one of the most efficient money-for-raw-power items in the game, not counting the fact they're stacking MR. It just is. It's stupid!
GRRRRRR!
EDIT: I AM ESPECIALLY MAD WHEN I GET VOID STAFF ON MY AD CARRY AND STILL KILL EVERYONE.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 07, 2013 03:46 PM |
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An adc (and some apcs depends) will rarely have anything more than 80mr, and void staff only ignores 28 of that, now this is good and void staff is nice, but it's not worth prioritizing.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 07, 2013 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:12, 07 Oct 2013.
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Ok. That doesn't take into account auras and baron buff but I have to agree with Dagoth. Voidstaff is an insane dmg spike which is why you will always see it in any endgame build or even as a 3rd big item on most apc. Not hating on you Tsar, it just is that good of an item. It's like an AD not getting LW as a 3rd item. (Voidstaff over Lichbane in your build for example would result in stupidly more dmg)
Hell don't take my word for it, all the pros/high elo players do it for a reason.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 07, 2013 04:29 PM |
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I'll check it out, but in theory I just don't see it. 
Quote:
Not hating on you Tsar
Don't be absurd, I adore scrutiny, it gives me a chance to consolidate/rethink my stance. (win win)
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 07, 2013 04:42 PM |
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Remember, you have the extra percentage from your masteries + flat pen. penetration gets better the more you get it. The only way to oppose it is just flat-out building health. Either way, I see pros rush lich bane on Fizz and, like... TF, with a couple of doran's so that's a thing, but I reckon the MS has something to do with it, too. On other champs they almost never get it, though, including kassadin.
So along with masteries it's about 40% pen + runes + sorcs, you're more looking at taking 50-60% of their MR, which is reducing their effective HP versus your abilities by about 30%. That's pretty strong.
Doesn't matter that much, though. In gold it's still a lot more about how you play than anything else.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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sphere
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2013 07:57 PM |
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Season 3 World Finals
Recap
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Who is this General Failure, and why is he looking at my disk ?
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 09, 2013 02:32 AM |
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Jinx Music Video
I'll not even try to describe it, anything I say can't possibly do it justice. Just watch.
Jesus #@!% Jinx is easily the sexiest champion in all of Valoran. Oh mai gawd. So fuc'ing good.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 09, 2013 07:18 AM |
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If she would stop treating mr Fishbones so badly, I would share your enthusiasm. 
Also, she's probably gonna be the new OP. I'm gonna get her ASAP and build void staff on her and get to Diamond 1 in no time.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 10, 2013 04:45 PM |
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Currently on a 7 wins streak, but this has only got me up to 81LP from 54.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 10, 2013 05:02 PM |
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It'll increase exponentially the more you win. Once you reach 50% win rate you are where you're supposed to be anyway. Yeah, it sucks. Only way to get ahead is by playing lots, consistently and liking it.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 11, 2013 03:00 AM |
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 11, 2013 07:12 PM |
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Out of nowhere my LP gains returned to 'normal' (15-20) so I got into my qualifier easily. Time for gold :3
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 11, 2013 07:58 PM |
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Again... it is not out of nowhere, it just means your mmr now matches your next division where as previously it didn't.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 11, 2013 08:23 PM |
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I must've worded it wrong then, I intended it to sound like it was a sudden shift from minimal gain to reasonable gain. (I didn't mean for it to sound like idk what caused it )
Edit: Won the first two games of my Gold promotion. One final game to go. <3
Edit: 3 wins in a row with jax jungle. ^^
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 12, 2013 11:33 AM |
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Good for you. Now go get plat.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 22, 2013 09:18 AM |
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What I do not get is why such a huge number of people play lol, I mean it's so poor game quality compared to dota 2 or even hon (where although there are a lot of ragers the skill level is so high compared to the other games with the exception of professional dota 2 players). I mean only played one lol game ( didn't understand the heroes and whatever) and finished with a ridiculous score.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 22, 2013 09:40 AM |
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Same reason why I like tea more than coffee or apples more than bananas.
The real question is why do you even care?
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none of my business.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 22, 2013 01:16 PM |
bonus applied by Doomforge on 22 Oct 2013. |
Edited by Azagal at 13:41, 22 Oct 2013.
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This is odd you don't strike me as a troll yet you seem to only want to incite conflict with your comment.
Quote:
What I do not get is why such a huge number of people play lol, I mean it's so poor game quality compared to dota 2 or even hon
This is an opinion I can understand but if you pair it with
Quote:
I mean only played one lol game ( didn't understand the heroes and whatever) and finished with a ridiculous score.
it just strikes me as odd. But in case you are actually interested in why so many people play LoL and not DotA I'll indulge you.
If you only played 1 game I assume you created an account to play so you'd be matched against newcomers to both lol and the moba genre. You apparently come from a moba background so you'd have a significant mechanical edge over new players (be it just csing, jukeing, hero movement etc.) which most likely explains your score. If you were to play on someones account that is already lvl 30 and play against mid gold upwards opponents no knowledge of champions and only good mechanics would only have gotten you so far. All in all I don't think you have a good basis on which to form judgement. An opinion sure, but you'd have to realized that due to your very limited experience, even that would not be the most objective.
I'm not going to argue that DotA is the more "hardcore" variant of the genre. not simply due to it's status as father of the genre. It has a very high burden of knowledge, champion variety is insane (in a good way!), mechanically (!) it is highly demanding, it's not exactly intuitive when it comes to hero interactions and hero powerlevels are extremely high across the board.
All these qualities make the game appealing and enjoyable to a certain group of gamers, but those same qualities make LoL so much more attractive to many others.
Lets see how the games are fundamentally different:
The League of Legends learning curve is a hike in the woods compared to the K2 summit of DotA, mechanically it isn't as demanding from the outset (no denying, no rune controle, champion abilities and interactions are significantly clearer which I'll talk about later), it is more intuitive, champion powerlevels are restricted quite heavily compared to DotA which makes exchanges less onesided.
Let me go a bit more in depth here:
Learning curve
In DotA denying (the ability to lasthit ones own Minions, Structures and even allied Champions in order to deny the enemy the gold they would get from killing it themselves) is a core mechanic, which is becomes essential if you want to play the game to any degree of skill.
It is not only unintuitive (I mean you're killing your own dudes wtf) but it obviously also requires the player to have good mechanics (timing his autoattack in relation to minion health and the enemy heros attack). Please keep in mind that I'm not talking about the tactical implication which denying adds to the game, I'm just saying it makes it more complicated.
Or items such as Tango and Magic stick, blink dagger and Dagon. They are either unintuitive (Tange & Magic Stick) or their effects are not immediately understandable (a new player for example would assume the enemy hero can teleport/nuke you for a lot of dmg because he has that ability not because he bought a certain item which gives him that ability).
Champion/Hero interaction
One of Riots core design philosophies is clarity. In League of Legends it is very easy to understand whenever something good or bad is happening, what or who the source of harm/buff is and it's easier to keep track of what is happening on your screen in general.
Just a few examples:
Zeus has the ability to nuke every enemy champion on the map instantaneously. The LoL counterpart of this ability also hits every enemy champion on the map but a) it has a channel time which can be interrupted b) during the channel a giant red lazor of death appears on top of you which centers narrows towards you and then does dmg once it reaches you.
The important difference here is that in LoL you immediately realize something bad is going to happen which gives you room to react.
Vengeful Spirit has the ability to again instantaneously swap position with an enemy champion. This ability has quite high range (Vengeful Spirit may very well swap you while she is out of your vision but she has vision of you).
The League counterpart of this ability is very short ranged (neigh impossible to be the target while not having vision of the caster, once he starts swapping you you gain vision of where he is and know where you'll end up) , is channeled and it is made un-missunderstandable who the target of the ability is, who is casting the ability and where you are going to end up eventually.
Doom has the uncounterable ability to prevent you from doing anything other than auto attack for 13 (!!!!!!!) seconds. While the visual does communicates that something bad is happening to you on its own, it is less noticeable in a teamfight (due to how "big" dota 2 abilities are compared to league abilities) and the source is almost indeterminable because Dooms cast animations is not very noticeable. Not to mention LVL? Death which can potentially do very high dmg to you again without any big indication as to the source (not to mention that the condition for the dmg height is absurdly unintuitive here is the explanation for the dmg condition just scroll down).
There are no league equivalents to these abilities a) because Doom (the ability) is the definition of one-sided, giving all the power to one player for the cost of taking meaningful decisionmaking away from another player) and like I already said LVL? Death is too unintuitive.
I can go for a long time but without going into much further depth here are a few examples I hope DotA players can agree are either very onesided in their hero interaction or unintuitive to understand:
Tinkers double Dagon combo, Weavers Time laps, Snipers mini stun, Bloodseekers rupture is a huge offender and Invoker. I could go on but I hope the theme here is clear now.
Readability/Intuitiveness
In DotA teamfights can be gigantic clusters of action and explosions going on over your entire screen. Teamfights with stuff like Leviathan, Invoker, Dark Seer (!!!), Earthshaker, Kunka and many many others just turn into firework festivals. This is obviously an extreme example but DotA skills are not just visually very bombastic but also extremely powerful so it's easy to lose track of whats happening in teamfights for inexperienced players.
While in League skills are not nearly as powerful which results in more reaction room on the players part but they're also less bombastic while still maintaining very high visual readability so it easier to keep track of what is happening to you.
Heroes vs Champions
DotA heroes are all extremely powerful in their own right with big, impactful abilities. It feels good to play them, you feel like you hit hard and it's very gratifying to blow up/stun, hurt whatever enemies. This however very often comes at the cost of the targets enjoyment/freedom as a player. DotA abilities are very one-way focused. While this leaves one player feeling powerful it often leaves new players feeling powerless and frustrated (because things just happen to them without them being given a window to react to what's about to happen).
This is severely reduced in League of Legends because Riot balances champions while having in mind what it's like to play against them. League Champions also have abilities that are powerful and feel impactful but they are almost never a 1 way street. People are usually always given room to react to what is going to happen and can thusly prevent what is about to happen. This results in significantly less frustration and even a feeling of skill because you managed to dodge skillshot X or used your heal before Karthus Ult hits you, or whatever else.
DotA has many features which are waaaaay ahead of League, like the client, replays, being able to see allied cooldowns and stuff like that. But those are all functions that help out the dedicated player base they don't (significantly) improve the experience for newcomers.
All in all I believe it comes down to the fact that new league players will feel more in controle than new DotA players.
I hope this adequately explained how League is much more newcomer friendly than DotA which results in more people sticking around to play it. I have done my best to not make a statement about which game is "better", I was merely trying to highlight in which aspects they are fundamentally different and how that affects player numbers.
Which game is "better" or "harder" is a different discussion.
If all else fails what highlights the difference best in my opinion is a game in the semi-finals of the world championships a team that is down a significant amount of gold and levels can win because they can maneuver a hero (pudge) with a very long range hook ability (if he hits you he'll pull you towards him) from well out of vision range of the enemy into position (with force staff and blinkdagger (not sure if they had any additional means of moving pudge around) and then teleport him back to base with another hero (Chen) while the hook is still travelling towards the target and then when it hits you you get pulled across the entire map unto the enemy fountain where you will die becasue Pudge will root you and before the duration of the root is over the fountain will have killed you. Considering that this can be done to you from out of vision range it means that if the Pudge player lands the hook you die. There is nothing you could have done to prevent it as long as the Pudge player lands the hook.
Here is what that looks like in action. As you can see he can even do that while invisible. This is a totally legit strategy, allowed by the officials as "working as intended". Mind you you need flawless fundamentals for that to work (it obviously doesn't hit every time) but still.
If you want to see the hooks from the actual semi final match of Navi vs Tongfu just search it on youtube there are compilations there somewhere.
Here is a compilation of Hooks from the Game I talked about. Minute 2 showcases exactly what I mean. Pudge gets pushed from well out of vision range into hook range by an ally who he then proceeds to pull to his fountain to die miserably.
EDIT:
Here you can find Riots lead content designer stance on things. I believe he addresses many of the issues you have.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 22, 2013 03:56 PM |
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Great post 
Myself, I gave up on dota quite a while ago. Not because it's a bad game, but because it probably has the worst community ever.  People flaming each other during the game (and after the game), blaming everyone for everything (especially their own failures)... it quickly grows old. Another thing I wasn't really good at (or maybe I'm just too old?  ) was the need to repeat certain tasks, like jungling, 9001 times in a row to get it right with certain heroes, just in time to make a difference in the game. As dota is extremely momentum-based, you either can make things work in a very short frame of time, or you can't. That, paired with rapid decision-making necessity, makes it a rather tiresome game if you just want to relax and have some fun.
Maybe I'm getting less competitive lately, but I really like just to relax in games. I love World of Tanks since I can hang in the back, do some damage and still end up as top damage dealer every 2nd game in my team. For Dota, you have to stay sharp, with your senses hightened to maximum. Too tiresome!
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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This thread is pages long: 
