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| Thread: Body building! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 12:46 PM |
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Body building!
So, are you interested in body building?
I take that most HC members aren't. Well, judging by the photos 
So here's a bit of advice for you, grasshoppers.  I've been doing this for a couple of years and even though I slacked a lot (hence I'm not looking like Schwarzenegger yet  ), I have a bit of tips, as in MA thread.
First, the myths - let's address the dangerous things first.
1. I'm gonna train two times a day every day!
wrong. Doing excessive training will cause extreme exhaustion of your muscles, which need - depending on what muscles are they and the intensiveness of the training - from 24 to 48 hours to regenerate! Doing this every day - or even worse, twice per day - will not only halt any progress, but also make you overtrained (weaker) and prone to hurting yourself with basic exercises.
2. I'm phat. I want to get muscular. So I'm going to train and not eat!
Wrong again. Muscles aren't built of fat, mind you. Even your excessive fat supply won't help them much. YOu need a balanced diet as much as a thin person when training.
3. I'm thin. So I'll just train hard and it McDonalds a lot..
.. and get nothing at all from it but - at worst - some fat around your belly. To get big - you need to eat. A lot. But not just ordinary junk food. You need a properly composed diet. I'll address that later.
4. I'm going to do as much of moves as I can per serie so i can grow/get strong.
Actually, that's counter productive. For strength, you want only a few moves per serie, but with really big weight. For mass, you want a limited amount with good weight, but NOT TOO MUCH.
5. So, I'm doing 4x bicep and 4x chest today and screw legs, legs are for pussies!
Yeah. And soon you'll look like a chestnut on toothpicks.
What's really important in training legs is that - according to newest research - stimulate the whole body. By training legs first, you are literally setting your body in the right "mood" for the rest of the training and promote growths, since it's the biggest part of muscle in your body.
Ok, so let's assume you've never did gym before. There's a million good sites on the internetz about this, I'm not going to go in detail. However, some people just don't feel like reading into whole tables of exercises and schedules, and just want to train a bit.
First step is setting your goal. Do you want to be strong? Bigger? Sculptured well? Or improve your muscle's endurance? If you answered "all of it", it's of course possible, but keep in mind that specific training schedules usually address only one or two of those goals max, because the methods used to gain i.e. strength are opposite to those for gaining endurance.
Rule of thumb:
Strength: Many series, but a few repetitions (1-8). Avoid machines (like this one. Your best friend is bench and weight.
Body mass: balanced training, still avoid machines. About 3-4 series per exercise, around 8-12 repetitions per serie.
Shape of muscles: Smaller weight, but lots of repetitions. Machines are welcome.
Endurance: As much reps as possible, with small weights, machines aren't that good again.
what's wrong with machines, you may ask? Well, they create an isolated environment for your muscle. For a "normal" movement, say at bench press, it's not just your chest muscles that are working, many other are used to stabilize the weight, for example. When working out on a machine, you are using a "fake perfect" movement, using only the main muscle part and underdeveloping the lesser ones. This is good when you want to shape a particular muscle to look better defined, but useless if you want to be stronger or "bigger".
So, assuming you're mostly for strength and body mass. Well, good for you, because those trainings usually take the least time.
First time at gym, don't think you're good since you have some internet knowledge. Ask your trainer to show you every excercise from your schedule and supervise you doing the first few repetitions. This is because you will only get the most of each exercise if you do it the right way. believe it or not, even in something as mundane as bench press, there's a LOT of technique involved that may make or break your progress.
WARM UP!!! This is extremely important. You should do at least 10 minutes of warming up, but it's recommended to do more. You shouldn't just stretch your muscles, you should also tire yourself. Yup! Take in mind that muscles need around 30 minutes to start full aerobic work. Earlier on the anaerobic cycle produces a lot of lactic acid which... well, you know well what it does. Want to have sore muscles next day? skip warm up, you will have them for sure. Skipping warm-up entirely will make you extremely prone to contusion, when muscles aren't stretched and forced to make moves at their maximum move range with an additional weight you're pretty much begging for them to get injured.
A good warm up technique is to use a track or stationary bike for 15 minutes, and then stretch for another 15. Stretch ALL muscles, including your back, and legs, even if you don't plan to train them that day. Pay extra attention to stretching triceps, as it's especially prone to injury for beginners.
After you're warmed up, you should proceed with your schedule.
Oh, yes, schedule  Well, writing one isn't hard. First you have to decide what approach you prefer. There's the training where you're training each body part once per week (called split) and the one where you train ALL your body every training (called FBW - stands for Full Body Workout).
personally, I'm not a fan of split, even though it might be better for experienced guys, I still prefer to do FBW which is shorter and doesn't focus overly on one body part meaning it's easier not to overtrain that part and still give it a good training.
You can use my schedule, actually. I think it's pretty good - a few trainers also liked it. Simple and effective. keep in mind however that I reduced the number of leg trainings due to my crappy knees, so I'm just doing it minimum with little weight. You should probably be doing Two exercises instead of one here Something adressing the calves too.
Training A:
Legs - Squat with weight, 3 series 10 reps
Back - 1. Deadlift 2 series 10 reps
2. Barbell row 2 series 10 reps
Chest - Flat Bench press 3 series 10 reps
Shoulders - Barbell overhead press 2 series 10 reps
Triceps - Overhead triceps extension 2 series 10 reps
Biceps - Barbell curls 2 series 10 reps
Training B
Legs - Squat with weight 3 series 10 reps
Back - 1. Pull ups (palms facing away from body) 2 series 10 reps
2. Good-morning 2 series 10 reps
Chest - Incline Bench press 3 series 10 reps
Shoulders - Military Press 2 series 10 reps
Triceps - Flat french press 2 series 10 reps
Biceps: Hammer curls 2 series 10 reps
If you feel like it you may add Shrugs and Forearm training, but that's not exactly FBW (which is about training bigger groups only).
So, with a schedule like that, or something similar, you're almost set. With good technique, which, as I mentioned before, should be carefully explained to you by your trainer, you should feel your muscles working - well the parts that SHOULD be working, at least. If you're feeling that your bicep is working too hard when flat bench pressing, you're doing something wrong.
A few tips here:
- The negative part of the movement (where i.e. you lower the barbell to your chest at bench pressing - the part where you don't put your strength into pushing or whatever, but retract the barbell or dumbell or such) should be slow (lasting 3-5 seconds). The positive part (pushing) should be as fast as possible. This is something trainers often omit to say to newbies.
- Don't cheat. If you feel you can't make another rep, do less reps and use lower weight in next series instead of doing fake reps.
- Take about 2-3 minutes of pause between series and exercises.
- BREATHE! Some people are trying so hard to get proper movement that they forget to brethe Inhale at negative part of movement, let out the air on positive.
So, that's all? well.. no. You may do a perfect training and still get **** instead of results. Why? Well, the diet must be good, young Jedi. If you're eating garbage from McDonalds, you will not have everything you need to grow, either strength or mass.
Again, there are better places to get knowledge in that department then me, but you should in general eat 3000-4000 calories per day, have a lot of vitamins and microelements (well don't overdo it, one pill of complex-vitamin source like Vigor or Centrum daily should be well enough). But that's not all, your carbohydrate-fat-protein ratio must also be correct. That's why McDonalds won't do, when the ratio is something like 2:5:1 you will only get phat. It is however a pretty personal thing, so depending on your habits and type of body, you should have a unique ratio you should stick to.
yes, it's a lot of work, but you can get a lot of muscle and strength without being all-crazed about the ratio.
If you wish to look like a Spartan or something however, well, tables of calories and calculator will be your best friend
oh, and...
don't expect to be big too fast. Unless you want to pump your butt with steroids, which sucks for health, the process of changing your body will take at least 2 years for you to notice a change, and anywhere from 5 to 10 years to reach your dream body, depending on how big and well defined you want to be, of course
So don't give up and start gym today. You will love it one day when everyone is weak, saggy and unatractive while you're big, strong and - hopefully - healthy
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 15, 2011 12:59 PM |
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I don't exactly do what you would call body-building. I have done some fitness excercise the last couple of years, some cardio and some strength, but not as much building as stamina. Still, I'm not very serious about it, and although it has helped me lose some weight, I'm not what you'd call muscular.
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What will happen now?
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted January 15, 2011 01:10 PM |
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Edited by wog_edn at 13:18, 15 Jan 2011.
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I'm not really doing bodybuilding exactly, but working out alot! Trying to do the entire body to gain strength, mass, speed and endurance. The way I do it (now, as I'm always learning) is I workout strength and cardio every other day, meaning I always get a relaxing day in between for the muscles. By the way, where's the ab workout there? I don't see any crunches, V-situp, bicycle or anything like that.
Forearm shouldn't be worked by beginners, as they are trained during very many other exercises anyway. Concentrating on it with a wrist curl or something (I give my own names to stuff, might not be the thing it's actually called) for example could end up hurting the muscle. Don't think I have to tell you that though, but still
Also for those wanting that famous sixpack, and is still eating fastfood; start eating healthy. The sixpack will be visible when you have less bodyfat (and a nice amount of abdominal muscle).
How fast you get big all depends on your genes. I've worked out for almost five months, and I have gained 5-6kg muscle mass. I do in general 30-50% heavier weights than when I started (I were already above average in strength). Took me 3 months to get a nice sixpack, and so on. Too bad I never had a personal trainer, just underqualified instructors, which made me figure out later on that hey; I've worked my tricep the wrong way!
My "diet" consists of daily:
3 thick slices of bread, preferably brown with whole grain. I use caviar, liver, fish or sometimes I make myself sandwiches using meat, cheese and vegetables. I drink at least 1 big glass of milk.
An hour later I have a fruit+proteinshake, with 2 types of fruits and a portion of Whey protein along with some fruit juice or milk.
Lunch usually varies; sometimes it's fruits and sometimes it's fish and rice, chicken and vegetables or something. It depends on the mood really!
Dinner is almost never the same, I love to cook! Chicken, beef and fish are my main choices for meat. I vary between wild rice and potatoes at the side, and always a nice dish of fresh vegetables!
After dinner there's another shake like above.
For evening food I have either bread or an omelet (with lots of nice stuff in it!).
And I always snack on something, fruit or vegetable, as I love eating on something. Not eating won't burn fat, eating often will. I don't remember the english word for what it helps, but believe me ... it helps! I have like no fat whatsoever on my body.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted January 15, 2011 01:11 PM |
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Awesome thread, but I hate things like this they make me feel bad for not exercising
However by having a schedule like that most certainly makes things more simpler, definitely going to try that the next time I exercise.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 15, 2011 02:03 PM |
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http://www.liamrosen.com/fitness.html
Well, exercise is good, the problem is finding out how much you need, and finding some reasonable exercise to do.
The "easiest" way to lose weight would simple be to figure out how much your body needs of food, writing it down, and then do a 30-40 min hard jog each second day along with some really hard workout once in a while, while eating the exact same amount of food as before.
Of course, when you accelerate your digestion prosses, it will most likely take more willpower than most people want to use to force yourself to partially starve. The difference is that when you force yourself to not increase your food amount, the body still gets enough fuel to keep on mining fat, fat contains a lot of energy.
The other problem will perhaps be when you are approaching the end result, what will you do?
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted January 15, 2011 02:19 PM |
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To burn fat:
Workout BEFORE breakfast, about a half hour just fat-burning exercises. Stuff that burns calories.
Eat often, but small meals.
Muscle eats fat for breakfast, put on muscle and you'll lose extra fat.
Don't jog! Interval-training is the way to go. 30-30 (sec) sprint and jog, this should really help!
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That's all I know, haven't really thought much of it since I've always been fit and slim.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 15, 2011 03:31 PM |
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I'm all in for starting doing some body building. I think it could be cool if we maybe wrote down some important statistics, such as our current weight, measuring of muscle size, how much that is lifted in a given exercise and how often we train.
Though I guess if no one is into it, then maybe it is a bad idea.
Also I think it's important to respect that everyone have their own approach. There's a lot of stuff here which I won't really consider following, because I honestly don't think it's very likely that the body works that way.
On the other hand, also a lot of stuff that sounds reasonable.
I'm not going to pin point anything out though, as I've just as little evidence as there have been posted here, so it'd be a question of opinion (i.e. irrelevant) in a field where science is probably already hard to do, because it's not only environment that's important in these kind of events, but genes as well.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted January 15, 2011 04:34 PM |
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Edited by wog_edn at 16:36, 15 Jan 2011.
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Thing is most of us are using different weight scales ... some using kg and some using lbs.
Also, what things on here are you uncertain about? If there's something you think is wrong you might get it explained better
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 15, 2011 04:37 PM |
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I can't see the issue in that, please elaborate.
Quote:
Also, what things on here are you uncertain about? If there's something you think is wrong you might get it explained better
I appreicate your willingfullness (is that a word?) to help, but I doubt it's a matter of explanation, like the ancient greeks had their own idea of how the world worked and their idea was logical true, but the world just followed a different set of connections (I guess it's equivalent to their axioms being incorrect).
I really do not want to turn this into some kind of thread where everyone throws their opinion at eachother, but without any prosperity.
I can try to quickly list what I disagree with, as I really don't think my arguments would be of any use to the thread at all, the question is to have something that works for you, in my opinion:
Doomforge:
point 3 and to some degree, 2 and 5.
The "shape of muscle" thing.
The "why not machines" to some degree.
the "warm up" part
The calories listed and the ratio stuff
The time range
Also there's a lack of calories explanation and trainer critique, in my opinion.
Wog_edn:
To some degree, the sixpack advice
The "burn fat" part and the "burn fat by work out before eating" part
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted January 15, 2011 04:45 PM |
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Well, I have no idea how much for example 40lbs is ... and someone from the US might not know how much for example 20kg is. That way weight measurement and advice might not be the easiest thing, if we are to share our results and progress.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 15, 2011 04:58 PM |
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Yes, but for stuff like this, google is excellent, there are a lot of converters. On the other hand, if you want it easy, just for each 2 lb, you've 0,9 kg and if you want it really easy, for each 2 lb you've 1 kg. It's not like the exact numbers matters anyway.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted January 15, 2011 05:08 PM |
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Why don't you start? As I don't have time right now
Anyway Doomf, really think a newbie can do 10 pullups?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 05:16 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not really doing bodybuilding exactly, but working out alot! Trying to do the entire body to gain strength, mass, speed and endurance. The way I do it (now, as I'm always learning) is I workout strength and cardio every other day, meaning I always get a relaxing day in between for the muscles. By the way, where's the ab workout there? I don't see any crunches, V-situp, bicycle or anything like that.
Lol, thanks for pointing that out
I forgot to mention it. I personally prefer ABS-II training for six-pack. Google it, it's great. I do it every non-training day.
Also, it's important to note you should train 3-4 times per week. Not more. I personally prefer three. My schedule looks like that:
Mon: FBW
Tue: AbsII
Wen: FBW
Thu: AbsII
Fri: FBW
Sat: AbsII
Sun: free
Quote:
Forearm shouldn't be worked by beginners, as they are trained during very many other exercises anyway. Concentrating on it with a wrist curl or something (I give my own names to stuff, might not be the thing it's actually called) for example could end up hurting the muscle. Don't think I have to tell you that though, but still
That's right. Smaller muscle parts shouldn't be trained seperately by beginners, because it's easy to injure them. They are trained along bigger parts by exercises like bench pressing (which involves chest, all of arm muscles and shoulders to some extent, for example) or pull ups (which if done properly affects all muscles of the back along with arms).
The one that's safe to train though is shrugging, because the "shrug" motion is very noob-friendly and intuitive
Quote:
point 3 and to some degree, 2 and 5.
The "shape of muscle" thing.
The "why not machines" to some degree.
the "warm up" part
The calories listed and the ratio stuff
The time range
Elaborate then please and I will explain to greater detail. What I wrote here is a compilation of practical knowledge gained by working with couple experienced trainers, personal knowledge and theoretical knowledge by reading A.Schwarzenegger's articles 
Quote:
Also there's a lack of calories explanation and trainer critique, in my opinion.
There isn't much to say about calories imho, what is important is carbohydrates to fat to protein ratio. However, as I said, this is hugely a personal matter, golden middle is different for everyone.
Of course if you want to LOSE weight then you shouldn't eat 3000-4000kcal per day. I was writing this having mostly muscle gains in mind, not weight loss.
Quote:
Anyway Doomf, really think a newbie can do 10 pullups?
Well, depends on his overall shape.
A lighter person usually has easier time doing this, even if his arms are weak.
Heavier person should start with somebody to help them (or use i.e. a chair) until they are strong enough to do 10 non-cheated pull ups.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 15, 2011 05:17 PM |
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@wog
Quote:
Anyway Doomf, really think a newbie can do 10 pullups?
If you don't mind me responding to this.
Of course it depends what you mean by newbie, but I'm confident it is very depending on the strength/mass ratio.
I can do pullups at home and I could barely do 3 to begin with (I'm very skinny, but also not very strong), after 2 months I can do 15, but I still can't take a single one with 1 arm though.
I also noticed that it got a lot harder as I gained some weight and at one period I actually had a negative progress, i.e. I went from 12 to 9 or something, which I think was due to me starting to eat a lot more.
On the same time, I know skinny people who're quite strong (i.e. they've basicly been using their muscles more than me throughout their life) and some of them can do 20 pullups without ever having been at a gym.
On the same token I know some very heavy guys (who aren't that strong either) and they can't do a single pullup.
Quote:
Why don't you start?
I'm not certain what you mean. Start with what?
@DF
Fine, I'll elaborate, but I don't want to hear afterwards I dragged a good thread into the waste, personally I don't think this kind of stuff belongs here as mentioned earlier, I don't think an explanation matters, what matters are what works for you, i.e. practical experience, all this should be about is maybe some advice that people can test out and see for themselves. So here goes:
Quote:
Elaborate then please and I will explain to greater detail. What I wrote here is a compilation of practical knowledge gained by working with couple experienced trainers, personal knowledge and theoretical knowledge by reading A.Schwarzenegger's articles
First, Schwarzenegger may not really be the best source for this, he's (was) a very big guy, but at that time roids were the norm and there are a lot of myths from back then that still lives on today.
shape of muscle
There have been going many studies on the shape of muscles and so far the results have not been sufficient to draw a clear confusion, in other words it works for some, not for others.
machines
The reason machines are bad for you is that when you lift weight in everyday life, your position during the lift (as DF also said) won't be the perfect motion of the machine. However this is a matter of balance, when you train with dumbells, you get both a balance and a muscle training and when you train with machines you only get a muscle training.
The balance part can also be written as scenes/joint (maybe the wrong word) needs to get used to change position with a large weight. If you get a high strength, but not adapted joints/scenes as you never used them, there's a higher risk of injury.
warm up
The same as shape of muscle part.
The calories listed and ratio stuff
Everyone is different and as such we need different amount of energy to function. As an example, many people on 90 kg and 1.85 are often estimated to need around 3000 kcal to maintain their weight. I'm on 60 kg and 1.80 and I need 3500 kcal. A friened of mine is close to 100 kg and about 1.9 and he only needs 2000 kcal to maintain his weight.
The ratio stuff again lacks evidence. The body is able to adapt to many situation, it'd be very unlikely that you need to stay within some close interval of food source range to be able to gain muscles, it probably just doesn't work like that.
Time range
The 2 years part, like the ratio and amount of kcal seems completely random to me, a friend of mine did bench for some weeks and he already had clearly developed breast muscles which he certainly hadn't before.
Again it's a lot about genes as well as environment. It's a science, test out if it works, do some statistics, the hard part is how to perform the test and how long time is required before you'll draw your conclusion.
Quote:
There isn't much to say about calories imho, what is important is carbohydrates to fat to protein ratio. However, as I said, this is hugely a personal matter, golden middle is different for everyone.
Del_Diablo put it best and I honestly think it doesn't matter if you eat fat or carbs, all you need is what is required for building muscles, sufficient energy and that you break down your muscles (using them) and giving the body the time needed to build them up again.
Of course we're not so far apart again on the other hand so many of the advice you gave are good, I think.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 05:22 PM |
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Yup. Pull-ups are pretty unique - a really strong, but very heavy dude may actually do less than a skinny, "weak" guy. Body weight is very important here.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 05:53 PM |
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@offs
Yes, the numbers I gave (and time) are more like what an average person needs. There are people who will get big on 2000kcal, there are people who need 6000. However in most cases 3000-4000kcal is enough. Same for the time necessary, for an average man it will take about two years to be different in terms of body mass and strength, natural talents may be massive and powerful after 6 months.
Schwarzenegger did a LOT of training in his life and he definitely knows what he says. Just by taking steroids you will achieve nothing. To reach a body like Schwarzenegger has, you'd need a combination of genetic predisposition, smart steroid use, great diet and excellent training. Don't dismiss him because he's taken steroids. All modern sportsmen take steroids at some part of their career (usually early on), btw.
As for balance, you achieve that by stronger "little" muscles that remain static for artificial movement created by machine, thus they don't improve. In other words, that's pretty much the same thing I said
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 15, 2011 06:01 PM |
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About averages, they can be good, sure, but then I think it'd be adviseable that you post documentation for these averages and the variation as well, reading what you wrote, I'd had put my kcal take up on some 4000 kcal and go ahead right away, after reaching what, 70 kg? I'd be confused why I would no more gain muscles.
Also, authority does not matter in science, as such it doesn't matter what Arnold knows, what matter is that there's evidence for the postulationts.
Quote:
As for balance, you achieve that by stronger "little" muscles that remain static for artificial movement created by machine, thus they don't improve. In other words, that's pretty much the same thing I said
I don't think it is, but I don't know enough to say for sure.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 15, 2011 08:39 PM |
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Quote:
As for balance, you achieve that by stronger "little" muscles that remain static for artificial movement created by machine, thus they don't improve. In other words, that's pretty much the same thing I said
A bit of noise to add. This is partially based on advice:
You can get really strong without adding visible muscles.
You can also train to get just a big buff of visible muscle without any strength in them.
The advantage of adding visible muscle is more area to put muscles is, basically after you reach the limitation of the skinny looking muscles adding more area is the only way to actually get stronger.
Of course, buff muscles only look good, so basically it turns into "maintain or get buff then get powerful", which is up to personal preference.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 09:38 PM |
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I'd also like to address one thing:
There is no "working for muscle definition". What I understand by "muscle shape" is that rigoristic training with many fast repetitions is to burn fat faster, which will make muscles more exposed. That doesn't mean they somehow get better by mass low-weight work.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 15, 2011 10:44 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 22:56, 15 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
I'm all in for starting doing some body building.
Dude I thought you were like 50?
EDIT
Lol I thought you were JJ. Sorry.
You really need to get an avatar or something.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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