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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 04, 2011 12:50 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 00:51, 04 Feb 2011.
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I feel the need to warn people...
Currently I'm on a killing rampage as far as my duel training goes.
I just felt like warning people, that if they want to beat me they need to be prepared. 
Seriously I'm so ****ing hyped for this tournament! 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted February 04, 2011 01:39 AM |
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Quote:
Currently I'm on a killing rampage as far as my duel training goes.
I just felt like warning people, that if they want to beat me they need to be prepared.
Seriously I'm so ****ing hyped for this tournament!
hey, you only barely beat me. if i had defended with those treants i would've won.
if only if only ;-;
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 04, 2011 01:46 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 01:47, 04 Feb 2011.
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...and if only I had used Vampirism.
But little does it matter as there is always new chances of victory on the horizon.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted February 04, 2011 05:36 AM |
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Ok so I finally downloaded and tried out the map.... great job with it.
It seems fair across the board, is well done, and highlights the best part of homm - the climactic battle!
A few thoughts:
1) Why does the Barbarian portal lead to another barbarian town that can be taken over?? At first I thought it was meant to obtain extra warcries, but they were the same. I found no benefit in this, but have to imagine there is a reason (?)
2) Even with the reduction in resources to 10-10-12-12-... for the dwarves, I still think the runes are rather overpowered. Maybe 5-5-7-7.. would be better? I'm sure you tested it more than me.
3) You say you can't get more than 25 paladins. I didn't test it out in battle, but I successfully trained 18 or so priests up to paladins and ended up somewhere in the high 30's while in my town. Is this banned?
4) I'm pretty sure the hero specialties aren't working, which is intended, but they're still displayed. Just wondering, they are banned right? It seems it but I couldn't tell for sure.
Thanks, and again, great job with the map. I look forward to having fun with it 
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B-E-T-A
Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
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posted February 04, 2011 10:07 AM |
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Edited by B-E-T-A at 10:08, 04 Feb 2011.
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If I am to believe JoonasTo, I am so going to get my ass kicked on this tournament. But I got a question, does anyone have a list of the possible heroes you can be on this map? As Academy I only have seen Zehir and whenever I play Haven I only get, what's his name, red clother blonde monk guy(but I have seen JoonasTo play another Haven hero)
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There is no good or evil, only madness. The question is "Just how mad are you?"
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PeterFarkas
Adventuring Hero
LeBronTosaurus
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posted February 04, 2011 10:17 AM |
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Quote:
Ok so I finally downloaded and tried out the map.... great job with it.
It seems fair across the board, is well done, and highlights the best part of homm - the climactic battle!
A few thoughts:
1) Why does the Barbarian portal lead to another barbarian town that can be taken over?? At first I thought it was meant to obtain extra warcries, but they were the same. I found no benefit in this, but have to imagine there is a reason (?)
2) Even with the reduction in resources to 10-10-12-12-... for the dwarves, I still think the runes are rather overpowered. Maybe 5-5-7-7.. would be better? I'm sure you tested it more than me.
3) You say you can't get more than 25 paladins. I didn't test it out in battle, but I successfully trained 18 or so priests up to paladins and ended up somewhere in the high 30's while in my town. Is this banned?
4) I'm pretty sure the hero specialties aren't working, which is intended, but they're still displayed. Just wondering, they are banned right? It seems it but I couldn't tell for sure.
Thanks, and again, great job with the map. I look forward to having fun with it
Only my opinions and what I know, but I am no great duellist - in fact, I haven't even seen this particular map just other duel maps.
1. There is always 25% chance that when you enter a new Stronghold, you get exactly the same lvl2&3 warcries as in your original one.
2. If you reduced runes so much, that would mean that you can hardly survive with Dwarves, if you don't have Fine Rune (which is also a very good choice right now)
3. Yes, that' banned.
4. Correct, written but not working. The best way although is try out - with Zehir, for example?
Quote:
If I am to believe JoonasTo, I am so going to get my ass kicked on this tournament. But I got a question, does anyone have a list of the possible heroes you can be on this map? As Academy I only have seen Zehir and whenever I play Haven I only get, what's his name, red clother blonde monk guy(but I have seen JoonasTo play another Haven hero)
Does it really matter that you always have Zehir and Alaric, since no one has hero specs?
Otherwise, I think if you really want another hero, you can look into your tavern (if it is not disabled BTW)
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 11:24 AM |
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Elvin, I'm sorry but I really dislike the changes you have made to creatures. You have totally destroyed the balance between that upgrades.
Like raising Pit Lord's speed and initative equal to Pit Spawn's. Pit Lord is a caster. Why would anyone choose Pit Spawn now. The reason you would choose Pit Spawn would be if you want a speedy creature. Now there is even no reason for Pit Spawn to exist.
Also raising Vampire Lord's speed to 8. There is a reason why they didn't want a no-retaliation vampire to have 7 speed. You would either choose to reach to your opponent immediately by using Vampire Prince but suffer the retaliation, or you would suffer no retaliation by using Vampire Lord but would be unable to reach the opponent at the start of the combat because of his 7 speed.
These hard choices are the reason for alternative upgrades. Now they are totally unfair.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 04, 2011 12:44 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 12:46, 04 Feb 2011.
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Not to ruin your little bubble there Nocturnal but both the Spawn and the Princes were vaaaastly superior to their alternate counterparts. The Pit Lords got a much needed buff and now the stratgical choice is whether you want a caster or blade of the slaughterer. I'd maybe not given the Lords the same speed but it's definetly a good buff that was needed. Play more games and you'll find out. And the Princes vs Lord chance lol... nobody picks Vampire Lords anymore unless you're in a necro mirror. I doubt 8 speed will change that since you don't really want your most precious stack to charge.
Now what I'm much more interested in is the reintroduction of the rune of charge.... what's the reasoning behind that? I mean Magic factions already have a really hard time against Fortress with half of them being immune to fire, them having rune of ressurection, elemental immunity and dragonform so why add rune of Charge to all that misery and frustration? Magic factions need every cast they can get before a week 6 worth of HP hits them that's counting for all matchups on this map. I'm curious...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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PeterFarkas
Adventuring Hero
LeBronTosaurus
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posted February 04, 2011 12:49 PM |
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Quote:
Elvin, I'm sorry but I really dislike the changes you have made to creatures. You have totally destroyed the balance between that upgrades.
Like raising Pit Lord's speed and initative equal to Pit Spawn's. Pit Lord is a caster. Why would anyone choose Pit Spawn now. The reason you would choose Pit Spawn would be if you want a speedy creature. Now there is even no reason for Pit Spawn to exist.
Also raising Vampire Lord's speed to 8. There is a reason why they didn't want a no-retaliation vampire to have 7 speed. You would either choose to reach to your opponent immediately by using Vampire Prince but suffer the retaliation, or you would suffer no retaliation by using Vampire Lord but would be unable to reach the opponent at the start of the combat because of his 7 speed.
These hard choices are the reason for alternative upgrades. Now they are totally unfair.
As I've said I'm no good dueller, but watch replays quite regularly, and... I've never seen Vampire Lords or Pit Lords.
Why?
1. When it comes to Destructive spellcasting, Pit Lord is almost nothing. Best case, they deal a bit less than 500 dmg with each Fireball in duels when the stack is whole, and I haven't counted their slowness - which means that many stacks can hit them before casting. On the other hand, Spawns are fast and instant death with their vorpal sword and hyper-boosted stats, especially for low-tier creatures. They are very hard to kill with either might or magic.
2. Yes, Vampire Princes are retaliated... if they don't Torpor. But Torpor is a very strong ability, it is equal with Blind for the enemy and Bless for the vampires at the same time. And with their Necromancy-boosted population, Princes have a great chance to trigger Torpor and turn a great portion of your army simply off.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 04, 2011 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
Now what I'm much more interested in is the reintroduction of the rune of charge.... what's the reasoning behind that? I mean Magic factions already have a really hard time against Fortress with half of them being immune to fire, them having rune of ressurection, elemental immunity and dragonform so why add rune of Charge to all that misery and frustration? Magic factions need every cast they can get before a week 6 worth of HP hits them that's counting for all matchups on this map. I'm curious...
I would have no issue at all if they removed the Rune of Charge. That would mean that I would be guaranteed a Rune of Berserk instead, which in my opinion is "a little bit better".
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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albolabris
Known Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 12:55 PM |
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He hasn't destroyed anything. He repaired what was damaged.
I don't know how experienced some participants are but really you should trust the ones that have hundreds or even thousands of battles played on duel maps of any kind because those people know how to balance. With Elvin's help i made also an Arena map, based on the amount of creatures given here. The map had something like 4 or 5 updates until now with dozens of tweaks in skills, hero specials, abilities and unit's stats. Recently there was a very big tournament and two of my friends did some very detailed statistics. The result was that the efficiency of literally each race was in the interval 40-65% which indicates that the map is balanced almost perfectly.
Most of those tweaks are almost exactly the same as the ones that are applied on this Duel Map. I can assure you that changes of units stats are so damn obvious to more experienced player that you shouldn't even comment on this matter if you haven't played at least something like 500 duels. The map may have some faults and there will always be some unbalanced matchups which are always difficult to win but the unit changes are a big step forward to increase tactical potential. Without those changes we would play each battle with the same upgrades as we did in the past tournaments.
And first of all play at least 50 duels to check the changes by yourself before you start wining and criticize somebody's effort to make the games more even.
Map is ready for playing so start training 
Leave the balance issue to people who know what they are doing. Explaining every single tweak is just irritating.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 04, 2011 12:56 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:05, 04 Feb 2011.
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Well the Rune issue is a bit more complex than "They need them to survive" is correct against some faction but not all. If you face Haven or Necro then yeah perhaps but if you face Dungeon or Academy 10 across the board is pleeeeeenty to kick their a$$ and walk away from the fight looking all fine and dandy.
EDIT:
I agree with what Albo said. That being said I've easily had ~200 matches on Elvins maps so I'd like to think I know atleast a little . And the rune of charge changes really irks me... do you have it on your map Albo?
@Jaba
That's cute but rune of charge is a ***** trust me. They both have their uses but you can deal with the Berserker rune you can't deal with rune of charge since the speed bonus is so outrageous it makes movement path blocking next to impossible.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 04, 2011 01:09 PM |
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I'm not gonna go around and talk to much because I don't have >120 duels played.
But the way I see it Fortress units will always act slower then let say Sylvans units, so the Rune of Charge is a nice compensation for that.
And you can still protect your key units with proper placement.
(now I'm just waiting here to eat my words)
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 04, 2011 01:12 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:14, 04 Feb 2011.
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...why would you want to charge Sylvan? Ok if they go destro you might want to but I doubt any Sylvan would go destro against dwarfs lol. Sylvan vs. Fortress is about letting the wave break against the a rock.
NVM I don't like polluting this thread with tournament irrelevant things. The Rune of Charge issue was relevant but this isn't if you want to talk tactics go to the duel tactics thread. It's a better place to share strategic points of view than here.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 04, 2011 02:01 PM |
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It's also a matter of making it appropriate for the duel setting. Pit Lords are more valuable in a normal game because destructive casters are good for creeping, but in the duel setting, where everything hinges on one game and it doesn't matter if you have 300 or 3 units left at the end of the fight, pit spawns have an obvious advantage. A better example is war machines. War machines are a far more valuable choice in a regular game for the early game creeping power it gives you, but it's a skill that gradually becomes more and more obsolete as your army grows, and in the duel setting, the skill just sucks if it doesn't get a substantial boost, so it needs to be adjusted.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 05:06 PM |
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but rune of battle rage or rune of resurrection are very strong too, and they aren't banned.
you could set rune of charge to level 5, and then you would either get it or rune of battle rage. rune of dragonform to level 4 and maybe rune of stunning to level 1...
would probably be better to redo the whole hierarchy actually
you should know better than me, that's just so you know there are other options than simply banning it. you may even make it cost mana I guess.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 05:19 PM |
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Quote:
Not to ruin your little bubble there Nocturnal but both the Spawn and the Princes were vaaaastly superior to their alternate counterparts. The Pit Lords got a much needed buff and now the stratgical choice is whether you want a caster or blade of the slaughterer. I'd maybe not given the Lords the same speed but it's definetly a good buff that was needed. Play more games and you'll find out. And the Princes vs Lord chance lol... nobody picks Vampire Lords anymore unless you're in a necro mirror. I doubt 8 speed will change that since you don't really want your most precious stack to charge
I have played lots of games, no worries. Other people replied appropriately and I have seen my wrong. There is no need for this "your little bubble" or "play more games" implications, please.
I always chose Vampire Lords because of no retaliation. Now that their speed is 8 it's better for me anyway I can't wait for the torpor chance.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 06:16 PM |
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Quote:
Currently I'm on a killing rampage as far as my duel training goes.
I just felt like warning people, that if they want to beat me they need to be prepared.
Seriously I'm so ****ing hyped for this tournament!
Yes, this man is a shaman or something! When we were playing my least favorite factions came to me, the skills and abilities I needed never came with new levels even in the mentor, I wasted all my gold to mentor, his creatures resisted every dark magic! Wow! 
I was simply helpless 
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 07:07 PM |
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streaming again
http://www.livestream.com/toh_duel
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albolabris
Known Hero
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posted February 04, 2011 07:54 PM |
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No Azzie, the rune of charge is banned. I think it's to risky to put it in. All you need to do is pick morale, luck, put on some other runes like battle rage for example , wait, then use the charge and watch as they all die. Meanwhile cast righteous might so it get's even more funny 
I created a new thread here with a complete description of the polish Arena map. I'm almost sure that most of the tweaks in units stats are also applied to Elvin's Duel Map. There are of course some differences because the maps are played quite differently as well. You can check the map and download it from there.
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This thread is pages long: 
