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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroines of Might and Magic
Thread: Heroines of Might and Magic This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted February 18, 2011 02:14 AM bonus applied by alcibiades on 21 Feb 2011.

Heroines of Might and Magic

Heroines of Might and Magic:
A short essay on the female characters in fantasy

Let's see how this goes.  Hopefully I won't offend too many people.

The creature line-ups are coming in for the factions of Heroes VI, and there is one topic of debate that drives a definitive spike between two demographics.  There are things that everyone agrees on - the concept art for many of these creatures is silly, and the Radiant Glory is a spiral-clad weirdo that kind of reminds us of the Great Fairy Fountain, and no one honestly wields a sword that looks like the one the Seraph wields unless it's made of foam - and there are things that everyone has an opinion to share (Water Spirits and Snow Maidens, anyone?), but on one subject there are two clear viewpoints, and they're somewhat clearly delineated between two groups of people.

The question is this:  Are there too many female creatures in Heroes VI, or not enough?

Naturally, a lot of women want to see more female creatures evenly spread across the different factions.  Also quite naturally, a lot of men want to see creatures that look badass, and a lot of men don't think the female allotment of creatures we have so far is cutting it.  The Radiant Glory, Vestal, and River Spirit are good examples of creatures that "shouldn't have made the cut".  There are those who complain that the Sister is not as cool as the Zealot, and they kind of have a point.  Haven is about religious fanatics fighting for what they believe in, and a girl who stands on the sidelines and proselytizes about pacifism just doesn't flow.

So what's she doing there?

It isn't that women have no place on the battlefield.  Look at the Succubus; cleavage or no, she's definitely not someone you want to meet on the front lines.  And in fact, as a creature of seduction, the design that Black Hole created for her is actually fairly mature:  she has armor, she has a weapon, and although her clothing is somewhat impoverished, her skin doesn't appear silky ivory smooth but hard, rough, the kind of skin you only get from living with fire and brimstone your entire life.

Granted, other factions don't do so well with the gender.  Necropolis puts their heads on lions in strange lab experiments, and the orcs apparently only keep a girl around if she's got wings or hooves.  But the centaurs (who apparently mated with a zebra at some point in history) fill the role of a mobile artillery quite well, and the harpy is actually interesting to look at, unlike its Heroes III predecessor, which kind of reminded me of a chicken.  Is the Heroes VI harpy a parrot?  Probably.  But there's no doubt about one thing:  She Will Tear Out Your Eyes and Steal Your Food.  For Fun.

Among the Equal Opportunity Employers, Necropolis seems to truly make no distinction.  Ghosts, Spider-Women, Lammasu (whether or not you think that's historically accurate - and let's not take a moment here to think about how a species survives without any women...), and the androgynous Skeletons all offer representation to feminists everywhere.  Granted, they may be getting equality in exchange for that pale, rotting, vaguely haunted look that's oh so popular these days; but hey, if that's what it takes for a girl to get hired in this town, what else are you supposed to do?

That said, let's look at Haven again.  We have Sisters and Vestals - glorified nuns who wear form-fitting outfits but who also bear large hem-disguised X's over their hoo-has - Celestials and Seraphs - giant winged cinderellas who somehow manage to dual-wield giant swords with hilts that look kind of like the steering wheel of a British tallship - and Radiant Glories - who, as I said before, are spiraly-looking ladies who remind me a little bit too much of Link's bottle fetish.

For the moment, let's ignore all the other factions.  Let's ignore the fact that there are only two (admittedly non-humanoid) female creatures in Stronghold, three in Necropolis (four if you count the possibility of a skeleton coming from a woman, assuming that she hasn't already been used for other purposes, like spell components), and two in Inferno (although one of them is a giant tentacle monster - and let's take a moment to not think about that observation of the animated porn industry).  Instead, let's look solely at Haven.  A faction that has three female creatures, two of which are alternately described as "lame" and "stupid-looking".  Three out of seven ain't bad, especially when you consider that one of the seven is an animal, and one of the three is the Champion unit.

And let's be honest:  the Seraph unit is pretty incredible.  Giant swords aside, she looks like what you would expect an angel from heaven to look like.  If she were coming to kick your ass, that is.

But what happened to the Radiant Glory?  Where did this unit come from?  The Vestal, as well - there's no way that they were devised with the intention of fleshing out the Might and Magic universe's lore.

I'll bet you your best pair of high-heeled shoes that the Vestal and Sister were created solely for the purpose of deflecting accusations of anti-feminism.  Haven is the human faction.  It's the one that's most like us.  If Haven isn't chock full of girls, then it suggests that the human race isn't chock full of women either.  Or at least, it suggests that women aren't important.

But, tit for tat (heh), their plan backfired.  Because now we know that the only way they could come up with more female units for Haven was to make something up out of thin air.  It wasn't in the original plan.  The Glory and the Vestal are consolation prizes, and nothing more than that.

That isn't to say that they won't be powerful units worth having in your army, or that they'll eventually be an interesting addition to the Ashan lore.  They probably will.  But let's not kid ourselves, here.  The focus groups asked for more women, and Ubisoft gave them pin-ups.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted February 18, 2011 02:43 AM

Well, I didn't bring up the Sanctuary faction, primarily because it hasn't officially been announced and we don't know anything about the creatures' current design.

But I find it strange that this is a world where Asha is a goddess, where most of the good divinities are female, and yet the world remains a male-centric society.  Are women still important?  Sure.  Sveltana is apparently instrumental in making things happen the way they do.  But the armies don't reflect that importance.  I'm surprised, for instance, that there are no female archers in the Haven faction.  Or that it's automatically assumed that the foot soldiers are going to be men.

Or that, if there are human women around at all, they should be peaceful and chaste and weaponless and unprotected.  Objects to be fought for, not with.

In the theatre world, the term for that is "problematic".  And it's an issue with most video games, not just this one; but it could stand to be examined a bit more closely.

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Dungeonian
Dungeonian


Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
posted February 18, 2011 07:08 AM

Quote:

But I find it strange that this is a world where Asha is a goddess, where most of the good divinities are female, and yet the world remains a male-centric society.  Are women still important?  Sure.  Sveltana is apparently instrumental in making things happen the way they do.  But the armies don't reflect that importance.  I'm surprised, for instance, that there are no female archers in the Haven faction.  Or that it's automatically assumed that the foot soldiers are going to be men.



 I'm also very confused about this , and more - If Asha is Mother of All , the Creator Herself , why no one in the World worship Her whole tripple nature , not just a twisted form as do necromancers ??

 No back to your points . I don't find Priestess/Vestal presence on the battlefield ridiculeous dispice their lack of armor and holy look .
Their main purpose is Healing and all they need to do it perfectly is a some kind of holy magic power , which they have for sure , armor and weapons aren't nesessery for this task .
 The Glories aren't women doesn't matter how its look , it's elementals of Light , etheric creatures , given by Elrath to his followers .
 The Seraph/Celestial however should be no gender at all , neither male nor female .  
____________
 The Darkness is the right hand of the Light , the Light is the left hand of the Darkness .

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted February 18, 2011 08:41 AM

I am surprised by the overuse of the word COOL (Foneticly /khu:l/) in some articles and reactions. Is ti so hard to come up with a different synonym for Attractive?

But let me say something to the topic ass well. What is the role of women in the new heroes series. Lets take an example from Heroes V. Mainly the Campaign characters

If we talk about the most important characters we have 6 main male heroes, and we have 3 important women. And not to forget that 2 of them are actually one and the same. This is 33% of the main characters.
And if we continue to the first sequel (HoF) the number of important women raises i percentage to 40 percent. We have 3 really important male characters and 2 important women. This is actueally a nice number for a war game.
In the final part of heroes V this rising number of important women equals the number of new important man. Both the orc Gotai and Necromancer Arantir have female companions Kudjin and Ornela. each of them has different value of importance. (Kudjin sometimes being more important then Gotai)

So the number of Protagonist heroins is not that low. And actuely I think it is rather high.

But we also have the contrepart. I have on purpes missed several characters with did not play such an important role, even thou they were high ranked (King Nikolaj, Kha Beleth, Hangvul, King Tolghar, Alarik, Kunyak, Giovany and many more) Notice that except the main heroins there are only few non generic heroins important for the story.

But what is more stoneshing is, that except Biara there are non female antagonists. With is somehow sad, for as I think women can by more dreadful then any man.
Do to summerise, I the impact on the world of Ashan done by women is big, really big, but somehow falls i to the shadow of the high amount of male characters in secondary roles. And mostly the roles of Antagonists. Not only a Succuby or Edak elf can by evil, a good twist would by an evil dwarven women (I know most of women do not like dwarves but that is not the point)

And also in heroes VI for as much as we know the Griffin family is made of 4-5 man and 3 women with is at no point insulting.
So I do not think that there should by any complains about the number, impact or importance of women in this game. So there is no need of making a "At least 2 females per faction" Rule.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 18, 2011 09:17 AM

Remember the H2 troll?
Now that was a unit that commanded respect.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 18, 2011 09:32 AM

Quote:
I'll bet you your best pair of high-heeled shoes that the Vestal and Sister were created solely for the purpose of deflecting accusations of anti-feminism.  (...)

But, tit for tat (heh), their plan backfired.  Because now we know that the only way they could come up with more female units for Haven was to make something up out of thin air.  It wasn't in the original plan.  The Glory and the Vestal are consolation prizes, and nothing more than that.

That isn't to say that they won't be powerful units worth having in your army, or that they'll eventually be an interesting addition to the Ashan lore.  They probably will.  But let's not kid ourselves, here.  The focus groups asked for more women, and Ubisoft gave them pin-ups.

Yeah, I think this assesment is very accurate. Important thing is not only whether unit works in terms of game application, but also whether it fits in with the overall theme. I actually think the Sister and female Angel work - they might not be my original first pick, but they make sense.

On the other hand, the Glory cleary is a paste-in like you say. Irony is that looking at the model, it looks exactly like the Sprite from H5, but it just looks completely out of place in Haven.

And I agree with other posters here, I think the whole thing is sort of unnescesary. I mean, it's a war game, so yes, there are more frontline male units than female. Big deals, since when has that been feminist? There has always been a pretty even share of male:female heroes, so I don't really think there's any real descrimination going on.
____________
What will happen now?

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted February 18, 2011 12:21 PM

The only thing HV discriminated against was good dialogue writers and voice actors, at least for the english voices.
Just went and took a stroll down HV memory lane... the voice acting is cringe-worthy.

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2011 09:15 PM

We don't really know if Radiant Glory and River spirit are really female. It's like the elementals in Heroes 3. They may look like they're either male or female but I doubt that they sexually reproduce so their appearance is purely aesthetic but serve no real function. They could just as easily look like nondescript shapes.

As for the Sisters, I don't see a problem with that. They're magic users and Mages and Zealots in Heroes 3 walked around in Robes.

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted February 18, 2011 09:22 PM

Quote:
We don't really know if Radiant Glory and River spirit are really female. It's like the elementals in Heroes 3. They may look like they're either male or female but I doubt that they sexually reproduce so their appearance is purely aesthetic but serve no real function. They could just as easily look like nondescript shapes.

As for the Sisters, I don't see a problem with that. They're magic users and Mages and Zealots in Heroes 3 walked around in Robes.
@Vicheron
Good point.
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 18, 2011 10:16 PM

Quote:
We don't really know if Radiant Glory and River spirit are really female. It's like the elementals in Heroes 3. They may look like they're either male or female but I doubt that they sexually reproduce so their appearance is purely aesthetic but serve no real function. They could just as easily look like nondescript shapes.

What? Since when did the Heroes franchise introduce a breeding system?

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2011 10:23 PM

Quote:
Quote:
We don't really know if Radiant Glory and River spirit are really female. It's like the elementals in Heroes 3. They may look like they're either male or female but I doubt that they sexually reproduce so their appearance is purely aesthetic but serve no real function. They could just as easily look like nondescript shapes.

What? Since when did the Heroes franchise introduce a breeding system?


Sex exists for the purposes of reproduction. Creatures that do not reproduce sexually can neither be considered male nor female.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 19, 2011 12:39 PM

U-huh. For the record, the elementals in H3 did have gender.
The basic units were all female and the upgraded ones were male.
Talk about sexism, eh, guys?

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 19, 2011 12:46 PM

Bah, there should be an equal amount of male and female.  However, since you can't tell what sex the creatures are..maybe there is
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 19, 2011 01:03 PM

Women should lead armies, not be a part of them
At least look like you belong on a battlefield, jeez.

I heal other so that you don't have to. Yay!
              \


I blind people, and make them feel bad! Teehee
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 19, 2011 01:09 PM

Tell that to the Amazon warriors who would never let a weak man fight for them.  Or the Furies...or the Valkyries.  Just because historically there were few females who fought until the late 20th century (there were of course exceptions) does not mean a thing.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 19, 2011 01:17 PM

But sistas don't fight. Dem sistas be preachin', yo.
That's my main gripe. To introduce such a passive unit to a fantasy wargame. I could've dug it if she looked fiery, fierce or at the very least independent (H2 archers) but c'mon look at her!

She looks like she's sick!

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evinin
evinin


Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
posted February 19, 2011 01:31 PM

I just don't get it... Let us see the picture here - in the previous Heroes games there weren't so many females. Yes, that's a fact and everybody was good with it. But then in Heroes VI things changed and many female creatures were added. Everyone started to complain about it, to talk how much alike are the Vestal, Glory and Spirit, how bad is that female creature, how bad is the other female creature... I haven't seen so much complains about male creatures.
I don't want to talk about sexists and so. More males play Heroes surely but females also. The males thing female creatures are weak because they don't have any weapons - Sister (but there was no problem with the Zealot and Monk in HOMM3 and HOMM4), because they look alike - Spirit and Glory (they are said to be elements but with the same luck I can say how the Air Element looks like a Gjin or a Efreet and so), because they are not right - Seraph, Centaur, Coral Maiden and Breeder (you want male Angel and male Centaur, Medusa and Imp) and so. Females say that the female creatures look too good (like models) but they don't like the Breeder or the Lamasu...
Did someone ever complain about having both male and female creatures? Why we can have them but not female creatures? Why aren't there less female heroes?
The point is that it doesn't matter what is the gender of the creature as long it looks good and is useful. When the game comes out I'm sure that many will regret about their words. I don't want to offend anyone.

I'll do a rating myself.
Sister - with a poor name, good appeal, one of the best 3D animations and good abilities I don't think that I would ever miss the older versions
Glory - maybe not that much of looks but still something new and fitful
Seraph - has nice looks with those two blades, anyway - a classical creature that I will always love
Succubus - looks better than in Heroes V, looks badass and ready to kill
Breeder - one of the best 3D animations, this creature can give me nightmares for sure
Harpy - thought it kind of looks like a parrot it's nice to see her again
Centaur - a fitful creature for Stronghold even with the zebra theme
Ghost - wonderful design and creature
Lamasu - not so good looking in in-game but new and interesting
Fate Spinner - I just love her, both her shapes
Spirit - even if many people don't like it, I think it's nice and fitful
Coral Maiden - wonderful looks, I don't miss the old Medusa
Snow Maiden - awesome, it doesn't need more words
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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted February 19, 2011 01:41 PM
Edited by Jabanoss at 13:42, 19 Feb 2011.

I don't get the deal some people have with the sister. *Looks at Avirosb*
SHE HAS MAGICAL POWERS!
Do you complain about the Mage from H5 as well?

The sister is an awesome unit with great non-sexist model.
The only problem I have with her is the name.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted February 19, 2011 03:10 PM

She ain't that beautiful anymore, only in the artwork.
She has magic, in what way does she need too fight? DO you also hate the Mage or the Monk? They can't fight either...
Her abilities are good and fitting.

But oh yes her name is disgusting.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 19, 2011 03:46 PM

The mage and monk are both ranged units with offensive magic.
Let's take a look at the Sister's abilities:
Quote:
   * Heal (Basic & Upgrade): The Sisters and Vestals of the Holy Empire, emboldened by their faith in Elrath, master the healing powers of the DragonGod of Light. Many soldiers recount the tale of being saved in extremis in the heat of a bloody battle by the warm hands of a Sister. Some even claim that they were dead, but that the priestess brought them back to life.
   * Pacification (Upgrade): The Vestals of the Holy Empire walk with a natural aura of purity and truth that brings spiritual pause to the enemies they attack. Their resolve and beauty has been known to strike their enemies speechless. A well-known Elven ballad recounts a battle with Vestals, claiming that each blow they delivered felt like being slapped on the face by your mother.

You always kill the healer first. Always.

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